The NFL Fumbles the Ball

[doubtingt]

Why are you ignoring the multiple factors other than being a "stranger" that thebeave listed which make the "knock-out" crimes more heinous? I've underlined 4 of them above. Yes, premeditated aggravated assault on a stranger with the explicit goal of causing brain trauma (which is what knocking someone out means) just for the fun of it is a more heinous and sociopathic act than a violent emotional interaction with someone you love, which almost inherently means have ongoing conflicts with and occassionally feel justified anger towards. The latter is still criminal and morally unacceptable violence, but it is arguably less "heinous", because it is a reactionary escalation relationship conflicts that everyone experiences versus going out of one's way to do serious harm to someone for no reason other than the pleasure of doing so. Some forms of chronic spousal abuse are as or even more heinous and amount to long term torture and terrorizing of another person, but there is no sincere "love" by the perp in those cases, so they don't really apply to "hitting someone you love".


Back to thebeaves legit question, no, there is no sensible or ethical basis to view the sociopaths who play "knock-out" as somehow less heinous or worthy of less punishment than Rice. It is likely a hypocrisy rooted in gender bias and other ideologies. However, there is a reason to give more attention to DV in general than to "knock-out" as a social problem, and that is quite simply that DV is thousands of times more common and the #1 violent threat faced by 50% of the population.

soiciopaths are supposed to do sociopathic things. That's how we know they are sociopaths.

The man who loves you, marries you, fathers your children and promises you he will love honor and cherish you, is not supposed to hurt. That is beyond sociopathy. That is betrayal.

Now we can argue differences of kind and degree and the definition of heinous and it will not matter because of who we are and what we have seen and how we have been hurt, we will value what is truly heinous differently.

Wanna beat this dead horse or move on?

Probably best to move on, given the near zero probability of you admitting your mischaracterization of thebeaves comment as merely comparing stranger versus loved ones, when he was actually comparing premeditated intent to cause brain damage for the fun of it versus an overreaction to an emotional conflict.

 

[dismal]

Sorry I don't believe that for a second. Do you have a cite?

What don't you believe? That someone will be charged with battery for punching somebody back and hurting them or that an employer will fire employees for misconduct off the job?

I believe you have a legal right to punch someone that attacks you. Self defense. While there are limits on force in self defense (e.g., you may not respond to non-lethal force with lethal force), punching someone who is attacking you once in the head comes nowhere near this standard.

I would assume an employer can fire you for whatever reason they want (except for a few that are protected by law), but I generally don't think an employer would consider punching someone that attacks you to be "misconduct".

 

[dismal]

Real winner, this Ray Rice.

Yeah, I'm not defending his actions.

However, I think if it was a random 130 pound man that attacked him in an elevator and he dropped him with one punch I would.

 

[RavenSky]

Real winner, this Ray Rice.

Yeah, I'm not defending his actions.

However, I think if it was a random 130 pound man that attacked him in an elevator and he dropped him with one punch I would.

Perhaps if someone defined "attacked" some of us might even agree. The problem here is that no one "attacked" Ray Rice. Not a 130 lb man and not his fiancé.

 

[Derec]

Not a 130 lb man and not his fiancé.

Does his wife (and former fiancée) know about this person?

 

[dismal]

Yeah, I'm not defending his actions.

However, I think if it was a random 130 pound man that attacked him in an elevator and he dropped him with one punch I would.

Perhaps if someone defined "attacked" some of us might even agree. The problem here is that no one "attacked" Ray Rice. Not a 130 lb man and not his fiancé.

We call this a "hypothetical".

 

[RavenSky]

Perhaps if someone defined "attacked" some of us might even agree. The problem here is that no one "attacked" Ray Rice. Not a 130 lb man and not his fiancé.

We call this a "hypothetical".

Which still doesn't define what you mean by "attack"

Certain people *cough* Derec *cough* are already claiming that Janay "attacked" Ray Rice in the elevator. If it is your position that if a 130 lb man behaved exactly as Janay did, then Ray Rice would be justified in punching said hypothetical man - I would have to politely but firmly disagree.

 

[Rhea]

Yeah, I'm not defending his actions.

However, I think if it was a random 130 pound man that attacked him in an elevator and he dropped him with one punch I would.

Perhaps if someone defined "attacked" some of us might even agree. The problem here is that no one "attacked" Ray Rice. Not a 130 lb man and not his fiancée.

Could someone who can watch the video please expand on this?
Can you please describe the "attack(s)"? open handed or closed, distance when attack occurred, where the attack connected, etc.
Thanks from rural broadbandless land.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

The price of poker has gone up, as Rice plans to appeal his suspension. The NFL is in a very weak position, having already meted out his punishment (the original 2-game suspension), and then having ignored their new policy for a first offense when they performed their highly irregular "do-over". All Rice's legal team has to do is create sufficient doubt about whether the NFL had the tape in its possession before the first suspension, or show (via transcripts) that Rice gave an honest description of his actions in his meeting with the commissioner; if you believe any of the "journalists" reporting this story, that should be easy.

It should be interesting to watch the lawyers use all of these allegations to Rice's advantage. It could be even more interesting to watch what Rice's hired guns would do if all 32 owners passed on the opportunity to acquire a talented player.

 

[Starr]

You know I think I've changed my mind about whether she attacked him. In the original video I saw, it looked like she came at him with a punch when he knocked her out, even if it was difficult to make out exactly what was happening due to the low frame rate. However I recently saw the video put in slow motion, and am not at all sure that is what I am seeing anymore. In that case my previous statement that the relationship was likely mutually abusive is unfounded.

 

[Rhea]

Thanks for taking a second look, Starr. I was surprised that those who claim she "attacked" did not respond to this.

Perhaps if someone defined "attacked" some of us might even agree. The problem here is that no one "attacked" Ray Rice. Not a 130 lb man and not his fiancée.

Could someone who can watch the video please expand on this?
Can you please describe the "attack(s)"? open handed or closed, distance when attack occurred, where the attack connected, etc.
Thanks from rural broadbandless land.

Anyone? Does everyone else also rescind the claim that she "attacked" or could you please describe in detail what the attack entailed.

 

[Starr]

Thanks for taking a second look, Starr. I was surprised that those who claim she "attacked" did not respond to this.

Could someone who can watch the video please expand on this?
Can you please describe the "attack(s)"? open handed or closed, distance when attack occurred, where the attack connected, etc.
Thanks from rural broadbandless land.

Anyone? Does everyone else also rescind the claim that she "attacked" or could you please describe in detail what the attack entailed.

Well, I can tell you what it looked like to me in the full speed footage. After Rice moved back to the opposite side of the elevator she moves forward, seeming to swing her arm forward with a closed fist. She doesn't seem to connect, but that just seems to be because Rice knocks her out.

In the slow motion footage, her arm is coming forward as she approaches, but upon closer examination of her hand I don't think it was actually curled into a fist. It was somewhat closed, but doesn't look balled up on close inspection. She isn't swinging her arm forward, it now looks more like she is reaching toward him. So something that happened to look like a punch in choppy fast footage, doesn't look like it anymore when slowed down.

edit: I can also understand other people not seeing what I saw in the normal footage. That is simply what it looked like to me at first glance, and that first impression may have colored subsequent viewings. Now that I've seen it in slow motion, I can see the same things in the normal footage to a large extent.

 

[Starr]

I just wanted to add something, since I was looking closely at the footage. Does Rice hit her twice? I couldn't actually see him hitting her in the normal speed footage (the entire exchange from him moving to the other side of the elevator, to her moving toward him and getting knocked out takes like 1 second in video, so it is hard to catch). However at around 25 seconds into this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbwTMJroTbI

Does that look like he struck her in some way before moving to the other side of the elevator. I just noticed this, and I can't tell. I don't have this part of the footage in slow motion, but it almost looks like he hits her. Has anyone seen that part slowed down enough to see what happened at that point in the video. To me it is really just a flurry of movement that I can't decipher.

 

[doubtingt]

Thanks for taking a second look, Starr. I was surprised that those who claim she "attacked" did not respond to this.

Could someone who can watch the video please expand on this?
Can you please describe the "attack(s)"? open handed or closed, distance when attack occurred, where the attack connected, etc.
Thanks from rural broadbandless land.

Anyone? Does everyone else also rescind the claim that she "attacked" or could you please describe in detail what the attack entailed.

There is no attack. He is standing there in her path waiting for her to walk by. As she walks by he leans toward her and spits in her face, she reacts by defensively swinging her open-back hand towards him with the force of swatting a fly away from one's face, as she continues away from and past him. It isn't clear that any contact at all was made, and if any was made, her overall momentum away from him would negate the momentum of her backward hand motion, with a net result of a slight brush. HE then follows her into the elevator, corners her, and spits in her face again. She reacts by raising here forearm to put a barrier between herself and him. He responds with a punch to her face that sends her head back into the wall, then he takes a couple steps backward. She takes a couple steps toward him, holding her cell phone, no raised fists. He punches her in the head sending her flying into the wall and to the ground. From there he reacts like a sociopath with zero concern or empathy, just standing over her looking down. When the door opens he lifts her partly up by the armpits, then drags her part way out the door and drops her letting her face fall to the floor from several inches and leaving her legs in the doorway. He lightly kicks her legs trying to get her to get up. He tries to lift her, but she is still groggy, so he lets go and now her head is in the elevator doorway, which he shows no concern about. The security guard steps in and used his hand to prevent the closing doors from crushing her head.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The price of poker has gone up, as Rice plans to appeal his suspension. The NFL is in a very weak position, having already meted out his punishment (the original 2-game suspension), and then having ignored their new policy for a first offense when they performed their highly irregular "do-over". All Rice's legal team has to do is create sufficient doubt about whether the NFL had the tape in its possession before the first suspension, or show (via transcripts) that Rice gave an honest description of his actions in his meeting with the commissioner; if you believe any of the "journalists" reporting this story, that should be easy.

It should be interesting to watch the lawyers use all of these allegations to Rice's advantage. It could be even more interesting to watch what Rice's hired guns would do if all 32 owners passed on the opportunity to acquire a talented player.

Yes, it could very well be the case that the indefinite suspension gets overturned. His being fired by the Ravens, however, was a separate action that which should still stand because it wasn't done until after the release of the second tape. I don't think that there are any teams who'd feel that the benefits of having him on the field would outweigh the negatives of having him on the team. His career is finished.

 

[laughing dog]

So, does the NFL suspend Adrian Peterson for his alleged domestic violence crime of beating his child with a switch?

 

[doubtingt]

So, does the NFL suspend Adrian Peterson for his alleged domestic violence crime of beating his child with a switch?

Well, the team already did suspend him. It is an interesting case because hitting kids is not illegal in many states, and would not have been prosecuted in this case if the mother of that child did not pursue a prosecution. IOW, it is almost more of a case of him getting prosecuted for hitting someone else's kid than for hitting his own.

It is also interesting because of the racial disparity in the use of spanking. If it became consistently illegal and was consistently and unbiasedly enforced, there would be disproportionate number of blacks in jail for it, and of black players being banned for it. That would then of course be used by many to claim racism by the NFL and cops.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

So, does the NFL suspend Adrian Peterson for his alleged domestic violence crime of beating his child with a switch?

Well, the team already did suspend him. It is an interesting case because hitting kids is not illegal in many states, and would not have been prosecuted in this case if the mother of that child did not pursue a prosecution. IOW, it is almost more of a case of him getting prosecuted for hitting someone else's kid than for hitting his own.

It is also interesting because of the racial disparity in the use of spanking. If it became consistently illegal and was consistently and unbiasedly enforced, there would be disproportionate number of blacks in jail for it, and of black players being banned for it. That would then of course be used by many to claim racism by the NFL and cops.

He was not suspended. He simply wasn't on the "active roster" of players for yesterday's game. Teams are only allowed to designate 45 "active" players, out of the 53 on the roster, to participate in each game. He simply was one of the 8 who didn't dress for the game but was still paid. His status with the team and the league was unchanged. Several news sources incorrectly reported that he was suspended, due to a misunderstanding of how the NFL works, or because they just like using the word "suspended".

The team has already announced that he will be one of the 45 active players for next week's game, pending some half-baked intervention by Roger Goodell, who would be better off just hiding under his desk.

 

[Derec]

It is also interesting because of the racial disparity in the use of spanking. If it became consistently illegal and was consistently and unbiasedly enforced, there would be disproportionate number of blacks in jail for it, and of black players being banned for it. That would then of course be used by many to claim racism by the NFL and cops.

Yes there has been a lot of apologetics for Peterson around the internet using that strange bit of cultural relativism. Rules should be applied consistently and equally. No double standard should be applied either on account of gender or of race.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, does the NFL suspend Adrian Peterson for his alleged domestic violence crime of beating his child with a switch?

I hope so. In my Fantasy Football league, the team I'm playing next week has Peterson on their roster. He tends to get a lot of points, so it would be better for me if he got suspended for at least a little bit.