The objective mind

[fromderinside]

You don't understand the basics of evolution.

Nothing is planned.

Nothing evolves to do something.

If something arrives by sheer chance and can help with survival it might remain.

Other than that you have begun to dance as well as wave your arms.

Nothing you wrote is responsive to the OP.

The OP is asking for the specific activity (objective mind) that creates the subjective mind.

If you don't know just say it and move along.

The dance is inane.

Well if all you say is correct - it isn't obviously, but, your OP is still bogus - your OP is bogus.

As for your critique take it to the bank that post hoc anyone can identify an existing behavior and connect that to the current behavior through experiment. So while the process is random and unplanned products are easily recognized as coming along a particular path based on history of changes which are pretty much laid out in individual DNA RNA and genetic material in Ribosome and Y chromosome. When I write of language evolution, search evolution, sensory evolution and the like I can obviously find the information of the paths in the history of DNA and things dug up.

I actually placed in may answer the fact that evolution is unplanned but that paths can be found making good and correct conclusions about outcomes from this or that starting point.

It is you sir who is woefully unprepared for the present discussion. The OP is asking for something drawn from ad hoc phenomenal interpretation to be explained objectively. My answer is there is neither a subjective mind nor the unnecessary antecedent objective mind. What there is are trends in adaptation based on observation of present and ancient examination of living tissue that tells a very nice story about how we arrived where we are with what we have to deal with the current world.

For you it requires a complete re-understanding of what is the nervous system, how it came to be, and what and how it works more or less as a real time set of more or less independently arising functions capable of doing what it does. Obviously you put way too much value on articulation without understanding how that comes about while insisting it is a brain, integrated as a thing -God only knows how - functioning as a single minded machine even though it is obviously many machines with many, sometimes conflicting functions as the result of that very process you claim to know something about.

The article included below should be a learning instrument for you on how things change. Prenote. The Cerebellum is known to be heavily involved in coordinated activities of movement and articulation. Now it's seen as implicated in perhaps even cognition of reinforcement as well.

Neuroscientists Accidentally Discovered a Whole New Role For The Cerebellum https://www.sciencealert.com/cerebe...e-discover-new-role-behaviour-reward-response

 

[untermensche]

You don't understand the basics of evolution.

Nothing is planned.

Nothing evolves to do something.

If something arrives by sheer chance and can help with survival it might remain.

Other than that you have begun to dance as well as wave your arms.

Nothing you wrote is responsive to the OP.

The OP is asking for the specific activity (objective mind) that creates the subjective mind.

If you don't know just say it and move along.

The dance is inane.

Well if all you say is correct - it isn't obviously, but, your OP is still bogus - your OP is bogus.

If there is a subjective mind, and nobody except real morons deny it, since you have to use your mind to deny it, and use your mind to talk about denying it, then there HAS TO BE something objective creating that mind.

So either there is something creating the subjective mind, "The objective mind", or the subjective mind appears by a miracle.

You seem to be on the side of miracles and fantasy.

 

[DBT]

You are not clearly defining anything. Your position is untenable. it is an irrational position, irrational because on one hand you claim that nothing is known about 'objective mind' but on the other hand claim that you know that it is the mind that runs the brain, ie, autonomy of mind.

So not only do you claim to know something, while claim that nothing is known, your claim of autonomy of mind is not supported by any of the available evidence on cognition and motor action. In fact that evidence goes against your claim for autonomy of mind.

My position is the subjective mind has objective activity creating it.

My position is the mind is a creation not a miracle.

That you find this position untenable is a funny funny joke.

The objective mind is the specific activity that creates a subjective mind.

To say it does not exist is absolute stupidity!

And my position is that in the real world we MUST do something with our mind to command the arm to move. It does not just move.

Again to deny this is absolute stupidity.

Partly right.....the objective activity that creates mind is physical brain activity. Mind being the physical activity of the brain experienced subjectively. Your error is assuming autonomy of mind.

To say it does not exist is absolute stupidity!

Your wording is off.

 

[untermensche]

Mind is not activity. The activity is the same in everybody but the minds are very different.

The mind is a complex end result of activity. It arises as a whole "entity" from the activity.

That is how we willfully use our minds to converse like this.

Nothing is compelling us to do any of this. It is all free choice with a mind able to make these kinds of free choices and then direct the hands to type out what the mind has freely decided.

The subjective mind exists and so does the objective activity that creates it.

The objective activity is the "objective mind".

And nobody has the slightest clue what specific activity creates the subjective mind.

Nobody has the slightest clue what the objective mind is.

So nobody can say what it can and can't do.

All we know is the arm will not move until we do something with our subjective minds.

 

[DBT]

There is not mind without brain activity.

 

[untermensche]

There is no movement of the arm without mind activity.

The simple idea of feedback is too much for you.

 

[fromderinside]

You don't understand the basics of evolution.

Nothing is planned.

Nothing evolves to do something.

If something arrives by sheer chance and can help with survival it might remain.

Other than that you have begun to dance as well as wave your arms.

Nothing you wrote is responsive to the OP.

The OP is asking for the specific activity (objective mind) that creates the subjective mind.

If you don't know just say it and move along.

The dance is inane.

Well if all you say is correct - it isn't obviously, but, your OP is still bogus - your OP is bogus.

If there is a subjective mind, and nobody except real morons deny it, since you have to use your mind to deny it, and use your mind to talk about denying it, then there HAS TO BE something objective creating that mind.

So either there is something creating the subjective mind, "The objective mind", or the subjective mind appears by a miracle.

You seem to be on the side of miracles and fantasy.

Thank you for your prayer. ....moving on ....

OK so I'm not moving on yet ...

There is no movement of the arm without mind activity.

The simple idea of feedback is too much for you.

Oh look another implied magic word a decider. When are you going to let evidence alone guide what serves as your thinking?

Seems to be that sense processing alone is sufficient to get cerebellum to engage and get that damn arm moving. After all trajectories are worked out, changes have been entered into registry and pathways to cerebellum thence to muscles and joint enablers are connected.

Machina iet.

Mind you this is known. Rarely does anyone ever see frontal lobe activity in these situations.

 

[untermensche]

If there is a subjective mind, and nobody except real morons deny it, since you have to use your mind to deny it, and use your mind to talk about denying it, then there HAS TO BE something objective creating that mind.

So either there is something creating the subjective mind, "The objective mind", or the subjective mind appears by a miracle.

You seem to be on the side of miracles and fantasy.

Thank you for your prayer. ....moving on ....

Thanks for a nice display of cognitive dissonance.

I say that subjective experience MUST have an objective cause and you think that is a religion.

You are hindered by imaging you know something about how the brain works.

You know a tiny bit about where activity occurs.

You don't have the slightest clue how nervous tissue achieves any of it's effects, like the mind.

There is no movement of the arm without mind activity.

The simple idea of feedback is too much for you.

Oh look another implied magic word a decider.

What do YOU imagine YOU used to come up with that?

Are you claiming these ideas have no filter and your hands type out words on their own?

The mind is the filter and final arbiter of ideas and the instrument that commands the hands to type out specific words.

If you have no free mind making free decisions why should I with a free mind give one shit what comes from you?

Your imagined knowledge hinders you from even comprehending what you are doing.

 

[DBT]

There is no movement of the arm without mind activity.

The simple idea of feedback is too much for you.

There is no movement of the arm (motor cortex/motor action), without brain activity.

There is movement of the arm without conscious awareness of that movement....you move in your sleep.

Your brain puts you to sleep but continues to move your body while you sleep. Your brain wakes you up and provides you with a conscious experience of you moving about at will.

Your brain generates your will to move and carries out the action.

Your brain generates the experience of you doing thinking things and you doing things

 

[fromderinside]

Thanks for a nice display of cognitive dissonance.

I say that subjective experience MUST have an objective cause and you think that is a religion.

You are hindered by imaging you know something about how the brain works.

You know a tiny bit about where activity occurs.

You don't have the slightest clue how nervous tissue achieves any of it's effects, like the mind.

There is no movement of the arm without mind activity.

The simple idea of feedback is too much for you.

Oh look another implied magic word a decider.

What do YOU imagine YOU used to come up with that?

Are you claiming these ideas have no filter and your hands type out words on their own?

The mind is the filter and final arbiter of ideas and the instrument that commands the hands to type out specific words.

If you have no free mind making free decisions why should I with a free mind give one shit what comes from you?

Your imagined knowledge hinders you from even comprehending what you are doing.

My response was a reaction response. It arose almost like a knee jerk except words came. Canned words. Are you saying mind includes initiating knee jerks. If so that kinda buries mind.

 

[untermensche]

Thanks for a nice display of cognitive dissonance.

I say that subjective experience MUST have an objective cause and you think that is a religion.

You are hindered by imaging you know something about how the brain works.

You know a tiny bit about where activity occurs.

You don't have the slightest clue how nervous tissue achieves any of it's effects, like the mind.





What do YOU imagine YOU used to come up with that?

Are you claiming these ideas have no filter and your hands type out words on their own?

The mind is the filter and final arbiter of ideas and the instrument that commands the hands to type out specific words.

If you have no free mind making free decisions why should I with a free mind give one shit what comes from you?

Your imagined knowledge hinders you from even comprehending what you are doing.

My response was a reaction response. It arose almost like a knee jerk except words came. Canned words. Are you saying mind includes initiating knee jerks. If so that kinda buries mind.

That is childish. Unworthy of an adult.

"I didn't choose those words. I have no control over what words spew from me."

If you have no control you are a waste of time because I do.

I choose what I want to say and order my hands to type it.

I am not a child.

 

[untermensche]

There is no movement of the arm without mind activity.

The simple idea of feedback is too much for you.

There is no movement of the arm (motor cortex/motor action), without brain activity.

There is movement of the arm without conscious awareness of that movement....you move in your sleep.

Your brain puts you to sleep but continues to move your body while you sleep. Your brain wakes you up and provides you with a conscious experience of you moving about at will.

Your brain generates your will to move and carries out the action.

Your brain generates the experience of you doing thinking things and you doing things

I have said it before, but you remember nothing but your strange religious teachings.

There is a huge difference between reflexive unproductive movement, brain movement, and productive movement, mind movement.

The arm WILL NOT move until I order it with my mind.

To deny this phenomena is a strange strange illness. We do it constantly and have done it our entire lives.

We order movement with our minds.

The arm does not just move.

Productively.

To deny it is just a complete waste of time. To deny it means it will NEVER be understood.

The brain responds to the will. It is the slave to the will.

It is not the will. The will is feedback from the mind.

The will allows sleep. And it can prevent sleep. We willfully fall asleep. It is not a brain reflex.

You are hindered because you never had to help anyone. You can live in a delusion because you never had to help anyone.

If what you said were true then there would be no difference between a stroke victim that uses their mind to recover and one that does not. If it were all just the brain.

But unless you use your mind and use it daily and constantly you will not regain productive movement after a stroke.

But this is just what it takes to help somebody. Something you've never had to do.

 

[fromderinside]

Thanks for a nice display of cognitive dissonance.

I say that subjective experience MUST have an objective cause and you think that is a religion.

You are hindered by imaging you know something about how the brain works.

You know a tiny bit about where activity occurs.

You don't have the slightest clue how nervous tissue achieves any of it's effects, like the mind.





What do YOU imagine YOU used to come up with that?

Are you claiming these ideas have no filter and your hands type out words on their own?

The mind is the filter and final arbiter of ideas and the instrument that commands the hands to type out specific words.

If you have no free mind making free decisions why should I with a free mind give one shit what comes from you?

Your imagined knowledge hinders you from even comprehending what you are doing.

My response was a reaction response. It arose almost like a knee jerk except words came. Canned words. Are you saying mind includes initiating knee jerks. If so that kinda buries mind.

That is childish. Unworthy of an adult.

"I didn't choose those words. I have no control over what words spew from me."

If you have no control you are a waste of time because I do.

I choose what I want to say and order my hands to type it.

I am not a child.

I didn't say any of that. Obviously, because you have a bias for all thought is intended thought and never, ever, ever, can reactions like "shit, piss, cunt, fuck"- a grouping, by the way, that can facility one's pee to pour forth if one mumbls it while properly stationed at a urinal - be other than artful thought out utterances.

More explicitly you are inclined to think one who would make such claims are not mature thus they should therefore be dismissed out of hand.

I'm sure one isn't supposed to say other about your lines than "work of a demented genius to be broadcast near and far as gospel".

IOW bounces of me and sticks on you.

 

[untermensche]

You're running from ownership of your words.

That is childish nonsense.

Your words you have carefully edited and carefully constructed.

You did it, not some organ.

The organ is the tool and slave you use to do it with.

 

[DBT]

I have said it before, but you remember nothing but your strange religious teachings.

I am not the one ignoring research, experiments, evidence and analysis.
ity.

There is a huge difference between reflexive unproductive movement, brain movement, and productive movement, mind movement.

The arm WILL NOT move until I order it with my mind.

To deny this phenomena is a strange strange illness. We do it constantly and have done it our entire lives.

We order movement with our minds.

The arm does not just move.
.

Sleepwalking is not a 'reflexive action' - the person gets up, moves around, doing with or that without the conscious mind being aware of what is going on.

It is the brain that performs these actions when in the abnormal state of sleepwalking.

Just as it is the brain that does it normally while in a conscious state and you are aware of what you are doing.

You don't consciously send impulses to this or that muscle group whenever you want to move, that being the work of the motor cortex.

 

[fromderinside]

You're running from ownership of your words.

That is childish nonsense.

Your words you have carefully edited and carefully constructed.

You did it, not some organ.

The organ is the tool and slave you use to do it with.

Well if there were a 'you' inserted into responsibility without substance for behavior then the argument you present might be right.

But, there's no 'you' taking over and doing what is being done. It is behavior associated with an organism without an agent directing traffic. One doesn't credit a car with agency for driving across a bridge. The car is a machine even if it is 'self' driving. So is a person. Any other attribution is a conceit, something interposed to distract from the fact that the being is behaving, built in to the person.

 

[untermensche]

You're running from ownership of your words.

That is childish nonsense.

Your words you have carefully edited and carefully constructed.

You did it, not some organ.

The organ is the tool and slave you use to do it with.

Well if there were a 'you' inserted into responsibility without substance for behavior then the argument you present might be right.

But, there's no 'you' taking over and doing what is being done. It is behavior associated with an organism without an agent directing traffic. One doesn't credit a car with agency for driving across a bridge. The car is a machine even if it is 'self' driving. So is a person. Any other attribution is a conceit, something interposed to distract from the fact that the being is behaving, built in to the person.

I am a mind. A free mind. I freely choose the things I say. I freely command my hands to type out my words.

If you are not a free mind as well then there is no reason for any of this.

If you (a mind) are not in control of what you say then there is absolutely no reason to listen to you.

Goodby. Good luck.

 

[untermensche]

I have said it before, but you remember nothing but your strange religious teachings.

I am not the one ignoring research, experiments, evidence and analysis.
ity.

There is a huge difference between reflexive unproductive movement, brain movement, and productive movement, mind movement.

The arm WILL NOT move until I order it with my mind.

To deny this phenomena is a strange strange illness. We do it constantly and have done it our entire lives.

We order movement with our minds.

The arm does not just move.
.

Sleepwalking is not a 'reflexive action' - the person gets up, moves around, doing with or that without the conscious mind being aware of what is going on.

It is the brain that performs these actions when in the abnormal state of sleepwalking.

Just as it is the brain that does it normally while in a conscious state and you are aware of what you are doing.

You don't consciously send impulses to this or that muscle group whenever you want to move, that being the work of the motor cortex.

What productive activity has anyone ever done in their sleep?

What the hell do you know about the difference between the mind awake and the mind asleep?

You make a lot of claims from TOTAL IGNORANCE.

Try an experiment.

The next time you want to try to blow smoke up my ass with claims of things you have no idea about just let your brain answer.

Do not use your mind to force your hands to type out words.

Enough of your bullshitting me. Let's do this experiment.

 

[fromderinside]

...and with a final cheerful doff of his disappearing shapo the poster formerly known as untermench evaporates from the stage having lost all semblance of being able to discuss things philosophical.

Clue: You make naked statements.

1. I am a mind. 2. A free mind. 3. I freely choose the things I say. 4. I freely command my hands to type out my words.

Back them up or all you have is a chant.

 

[fromderinside]

Do not use your mind to force your hands to type out words.

Enough of your bullshitting me. Let's do this experiment.

What you post is nowhere near an experiment. What are the operations involved with finding a mind, much less using it? How do we presume force is needed? Can't you pose an automata that can do what you ask as an alternate hypothesis?

I'm just beginning ...... science does not take place between the unknowing around a coffee table or at an anonymous forum or anywhere else.

For comparison try comparing what you wrote with

In the beginning there was the word and the word was God.

Way too similar for even rational discussion.