• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The objective mind

Maybe the objective mind is a synonym for "the functioning brain". If not, what would the synonym be?

It is what I have said it is many many times.

The subjective mind is the mind we are.

We are minds talking to each other over the internet ordering our hands to type out the words we freely choose and the ideas we freely believe.

The existence of the subjective mind is not in question.

The objective mind is the specific activity that produces the subjective mind.

Most people believe it is some kind of activity happening in the brain and it probably is.
 
Perhaps this will work:

View attachment 17993
Opaque, Translucent, Transparent
Subjective mind, functioning mind, objective mind.

Objective mind refers to SPECIFIC ACTIVITY.

It is the specific activity that creates the subjective mind.

This is only based on one assumption:

The subjective mind does not create itself.
 
Stop calling a clearly defined term bogus.

It is ignorant.

Ignorance is distorting certain terms and references to suit your own agenda, doing this to justify your belief in autonomy of mind.

I am merely clearly defining something.

That you have cognitive dissonance with it is my whole point.

You have been brainwashed so thoroughly you can't see simple things presented simply.

The subjective mind is what we are.

We are minds encased in a body commanding that body to do this and that.

The objective mind is the SPECIFIC ACTIVITY that produces the subjective mind.

And presently we don't have the slightest clue what that activity is.

''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain.

What did I say about presenting studies that do not have any understanding of the objective mind?

It is handwaving and distraction.

And I am talking about command, not control.
 
The brain is a slave to the mind. It is working non-stop to give the mind information and do the sorting the mind commands and store the information the mind desires.

No mind no purposeful activity.
No Sir. Brain is not a slave. Do you ask brain to preserve some memory and ask it to reproduce it when required? Brain does it on its own. It remembers what it considers important, forgets many other things. Mind cannot force brain to give information which it may have stored. That is when one is left scratching his/her head. Brain is the king. The purpose full activity also depends on Brain. If it is not in a mood, tired; then it simply refuses the mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAB
Studying is asking the brain to remember things.

People do it all the time.

It takes effort.

It does not just happen.

And the mind freely chooses what it will study and how hard it will study.
 
There is a cacophony of information out there.

The brain merely makes presentations of it.

The mind orders it to make sense of it. The mind decides which ideas to believe and which to totally reject.

First we debunk your presumptions about what the brain does.

Nervous tissue. particularly that on there sensory side are organized to transmit what is detected by receptors which are already arranged. In Vision they are arranged in an order to feature such as color in the direct foveal vision. Sound is arranged according to frequency, high to low. Skin are senses organized into what was found early on as homunculi in the cortex, that is by where on the body they arose.

Extents of sensation are organized thorough a process of lateral inhibit where boundaries are emphasized between stimulus and no stimulus by a process known as lateral inhibition.

Mind not active there at all.

An orchestra is laid out according to place, complementarity, by both eye and ear segregations of spatial location. persons are associated with faces and bodies by processes of masking, location association, memory assisted voice recognition and other feature extractors located from pons, through midbrain, to cortex. Cortical sensory content is arranged into six columnar loci according to a set of rules first laid out by Mountcastle for skin senses then Hartline for vision in the mid fifties. Arousing and attending are responsive, not emitted, functions, centers, and tracts from hindbrain to cortex.

Still no mindfulness.

So how do you connect your control of mind to all this free filtering, attending, sorting, and identifying stuff the brain is doing without what you call mind?

What you seem to be doing is looking at a gnat on a hair on the tail of a camel and announcing the camel has a mind.

Before you spout nothing you need to go back and read about 200 years of sensory, perceptual, and cognitive, psychophysics and neuroscience, up to and including the theoretical evolutionary brain work of Crick up to his death in about 2005.

Gee, looks like your off-waver is getting a little limp.

Why not just say what you are going to say once and leave it at that. We don't really need your trumpeting of your beliefs over and over again to every exception. Your answers don't negate what was written for you to restart your repeater. You are just repeating the same sad bit of bunk.

At least you should need to move the mind up to another level to accommodate all the science has accounted as being outside the reach of what ever it is you think is what that gnat is telling you.
 
First we debunk your presumptions about what the brain does.

OK. Sure.

Nervous tissue. particularly that on there sensory side are organized to transmit what is detected by receptors which are already arranged. In Vision they are arranged in an order to feature such as color in the direct foveal vision. Sound is arranged according to frequency, high to low. Skin are senses organized into what was found early on as homunculi in the cortex, that is by where on the body they arose.

What you are saying is information is transmitted to the brain in some manner.

How it is transmitted you don't understand.

What the brain does with the transmission you do not understand.

How the brain in service to the mind creates something for the mind and presents it to the mind you do not understand.

But you do know that in some cases information, in some unknown form, is brought to the brain.

Congratulations.

Extents of sensation are organized thorough a process of lateral inhibit where boundaries are emphasized between stimulus and no stimulus by a process known as lateral inhibition.

This is some bare basics of a tiny piece of what the brain is doing.

It is not any kind of understanding of the objective mind.

Why you are talking about it is bizarre.

Perhaps it is what you know so you just spew what you know as some smokescreen and we are not supposed to notice the incredible amount you do not know.

Mind not active there at all.

The mind must attend for anything to be noticed.

If the mind is attending to something it is active.

But I have never said it is ALL active mind.

The mind is very limited in what it can do. Except in the comics.

The mind can sort and make decisions about information, like whether the mind will believe something or not.

The mind can study information and make it accessible on command.

The mind can move the body within limits.
 
No points for you.

We know just how information is transmitted to the cortex, where it goes in the cortex, what is done in most all regions of cortex, and what a person hase available to herself when making decisions. It's in the scientific record.

What we don't have is someone who has an agenda trying to say the same damn thing every post with obvious failure.

The mod doesn't attend. Attending goes on everywhere information is recognizable at whatever levels it becomes so in context with current information stream. That means there are many attendings going on every second and several awarenesses being triggered. Both of these activities have their genesis in hindbrain and midbrain. Cortex is only provided with" for your information data" that might be used to trigger overt request for action of some sort. The mind is a many splintered thing. It is not an entity. Rather it is a myriad of entities competing for recognition in some stream of consciousness.

The objective mind is a fiction produced by the uninformed for the uninformed to make them feel they are somehow in control of their every behavior. Going over the previous the answer is it is a fiction by the uninformed for the uninformed to do something that cannot be done even for a moment.
 
OK. Sure.



What you are saying is information is transmitted to the brain in some manner.

How it is transmitted you don't understand.

What the brain does with the transmission you do not understand.

How the brain in service to the mind creates something for the mind and presents it to the mind you do not understand.

But you do know that in some cases information, in some unknown form, is brought to the brain.

Congratulations.

Extents of sensation are organized thorough a process of lateral inhibit where boundaries are emphasized between stimulus and no stimulus by a process known as lateral inhibition.

This is some bare basics of a tiny piece of what the brain is doing.

It is not any kind of understanding of the objective mind.

Why you are talking about it is bizarre.

Perhaps it is what you know so you just spew what you know as some smokescreen and we are not supposed to notice the incredible amount you do not know.

Mind not active there at all.

The mind must attend for anything to be noticed.

If the mind is attending to something it is active.

But I have never said it is ALL active mind.

The mind is very limited in what it can do. Except in the comics.

The mind can sort and make decisions about information, like whether the mind will believe something or not.

The mind can study information and make it accessible on command.

The mind can move the body within limits.

You Appear ignorant of basic biology and physiology if you do not understand how the nervous system works. How visual information gets to the brain. It is all on the net.
 
No points for you.

We know just how information is transmitted to the cortex, where it goes in the cortex, what is done in most all regions of cortex, and what a person hase available to herself when making decisions. It's in the scientific record.

What we don't have is someone who has an agenda trying to say the same damn thing every post with obvious failure.

The mod doesn't attend. Attending goes on everywhere information is recognizable at whatever levels it becomes so in context with current information stream. That means there are many attendings going on every second and several awarenesses being triggered. Both of these activities have their genesis in hindbrain and midbrain. Cortex is only provided with" for your information data" that might be used to trigger overt request for action of some sort. The mind is a many splintered thing. It is not an entity. Rather it is a myriad of entities competing for recognition in some stream of consciousness.

The objective mind is a fiction produced by the uninformed for the uninformed to make them feel they are somehow in control of their every behavior. Going over the previous the answer is it is a fiction by the uninformed for the uninformed to do something that cannot be done even for a moment.

You do not know HOW.

You only know where.

You don't have the slightest idea HOW information is transmitted or HOW the brain makes something out of it.

The mind is what you used to form those sentences.

A bunch of nonsense but not fractured.

- - - Updated - - -

OK. Sure.



What you are saying is information is transmitted to the brain in some manner.

How it is transmitted you don't understand.

What the brain does with the transmission you do not understand.

How the brain in service to the mind creates something for the mind and presents it to the mind you do not understand.

But you do know that in some cases information, in some unknown form, is brought to the brain.

Congratulations.



This is some bare basics of a tiny piece of what the brain is doing.

It is not any kind of understanding of the objective mind.

Why you are talking about it is bizarre.

Perhaps it is what you know so you just spew what you know as some smokescreen and we are not supposed to notice the incredible amount you do not know.



The mind must attend for anything to be noticed.

If the mind is attending to something it is active.

But I have never said it is ALL active mind.

The mind is very limited in what it can do. Except in the comics.

The mind can sort and make decisions about information, like whether the mind will believe something or not.

The mind can study information and make it accessible on command.

The mind can move the body within limits.

You Appear ignorant of basic biology and physiology if you do not understand how the nervous system works. How visual information gets to the brain. It is all on the net.

I know a great deal about neuro anatomy and physiology.

She me one error.

Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.
 
I am merely clearly defining something.

That you have cognitive dissonance with it is my whole point.

You have been brainwashed so thoroughly you can't see simple things presented simply.

The subjective mind is what we are.

We are minds encased in a body commanding that body to do this and that.

The objective mind is the SPECIFIC ACTIVITY that produces the subjective mind.

And presently we don't have the slightest clue what that activity is.

''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain.

What did I say about presenting studies that do not have any understanding of the objective mind?

It is handwaving and distraction.

And I am talking about command, not control.


You are not clearly defining anything. Your position is untenable. it is an irrational position, irrational because on one hand you claim that nothing is known about 'objective mind' but on the other hand claim that you know that it is the mind that runs the brain, ie, autonomy of mind.

So not only do you claim to know something, while claim that nothing is known, your claim of autonomy of mind is not supported by any of the available evidence on cognition and motor action. In fact that evidence goes against your claim for autonomy of mind.
 
Last edited:
Wow. So let me go back to what I knew fifty years ago. Let me talk a bit about the auditory system. Apparently you don't get that a cochlea with a mechanical system beats a drum covering a liquid filled cavity loaded with hair cess arranged tonotopically because of progressively less stiff membrane holding the hair cells permits generation of a standing way which bends the hairs permitting a chemical release of transmitter substance which travels down the haircell wall to the vicinity of attached nerve cells where they are taken up thus leading to generation of an action potential that is rapidly transferred to the cochlear nucleus where it is parsed for arrival time and frequency leading other neurons to fire that information etc. That was known fifty years ago and taught in lower division classes. Much more has been learned since.

This is knowing nothing about how information is transmitted to the brain specifically. Additionally the above also demonstrate early processing of information for content and orientation in the brain. More nothing obviously.

After seven to nine synapses information is analyzed and organized into a credible representations the acoustic environment around the brain.

The representation are so credible that they are compared with those of an ideal observer to determine both linearity, fidelity, and precision of perception. More nothing i'm sure.

BTW everything after hair cells is in the brain and we know how that information is transmitted and to where it is transmitted and quite often for what purpose. Still more nothing I guess.

You want articulation then what you need do is study the machines and nervous operations required for that function. I hear an evolution of a hyoid bone was essential to provide control of tongue and larynx to produce the required sounds as air was passed though the system. Obviously these thngs are all too pretty well understood. Still knowing nothing

Let's stop this.

When you provide one single example of something you know about the mind we will be in position to show you the fallacy you are trying to create.

For instance you say it must be there for the subjective mind. Yet the brain does the work so why not just consider the functioning brain as the objective mind.

It seems your only reason for not doing so is you need something external to the machine to be in charge.

Well untermenche, that's not the way reality works. It works by twists and turns guided by chance and existing conditions to eventually produce ever living thing. It doesn't design a mind, Take a bunch s a bunch of monkeys typing codes over and over again to produce this example then that. We aren't designed in any engineering sense.

You need to put your intervening variable machin back in the closet and go out and actually learn something,.

In fact I challenge you to show us one instance of where we know nothing about anything claimed by you.

Nothing more than the sound of Willy Wonka's machines.coming from you.
 
I'm sure you did great stuff but you didn't discover how the brain understands what the nerves are transmitting to it.

You didn't discover one thing about the objective mind.

You have no idea how the brain creates the subjective mind.

Why you are telling me all this is beyond me.

It is handwaving and distraction.

I am asking for the specific activity that creates the subjective mind.

Not an examination of everything you know that isn't the specific activity that creates the subjective mind.
 
I'm sure you did great stuff but you didn't discover how the brain understands what the nerves are transmitting to it.
Brain has no need to understand. Brain has the equivalent of a hundred billion diodes - switch on, switch off. I need to study how mind interprets it in words.
 
I'm sure you did great stuff but you didn't discover how the brain understands what the nerves are transmitting to it.
Brain has no need to understand. Brain has the equivalent of a hundred billion diodes - switch on, switch off. I need to study how mind interprets it in words.

This is a speculation.

Even if we say the cell is a switch, which it isn't, it is far more complex than that and does not behave merely as a switch, but even if we speculate that the cells are just switches we don't have anything productive.

A bunch of switches don't produce anything without software and programming.

Merely speculating that the cells are switches is not an explanation of anything.
 
I'm sure you did great stuff but you didn't discover how the brain understands what the nerves are transmitting to it.
Brain has no need to understand. Brain has the equivalent of a hundred billion diodes - switch on, switch off. I need to study how mind interprets it in words.

This is a speculation.

Even if we say the cell is a switch, which it isn't, it is far more complex than that and does not behave merely as a switch, but even if we speculate that the cells are just switches we don't have anything productive.

A bunch of switches don't produce anything without software and programming.

Merely speculating that the cells are switches is not an explanation of anything.

You are both wrong. the brain is nervous tissue evolved to accomplish survival specific things.

Yes neurons are switches, multiswitches, variable evaluators, etc.

Neural fibers interact at neuron to produce limits and specifics primarily. Neural processes developed positive transmissions and corresponding negative transmision which permit meuron to resolve such as shape, contour, rate, etc.

Neural processes are often organized by function such as sense order and organization, Specific processes are innervated to chemo-transmitters in places like the hypothalamus that either initiate or abort particular actions in muscles and other brain centers.

What we do is the result of the brain doing all these things working singly, in groups, in sequences, in patterns, and in coordinating neural transmissions so the beast does what is required to navigate what senses and memory have informed it.

The human brain is evolved to understand, construct, and use tools, to speak to keep what has worked in memory and many other things all through the caudrun of trial and error. There is no development of an administrative function that can be point to as a thing called mind. There are many deciders, administrators, coordinators, facilitators throughout the entire brain. Most of these elements never actually communicate with each other.

They are all things the brain does and we call the result in strings of continuous activity we call a functioning brain. In fact to call it an organ, a brain is an extreme leap. It is a variety of neural tissue evolved to do many functions some replicates of other evolved functions that, for the want of simplicity we call a brain. it is actually many brains. It would be much more appropriate to call the brain a system like the skin, skeletal, glandular, digestive, and sensory systems.

What we cal the brain(s) has/have evolved to do these things because it yields the best possibility for our survival. Each and every little thing you do has a brain antecedent which was evolved to do that and similar things. We, our bodies, our glands, our brain, our bones, are the evolved end result of life as expressed today as human. We know the above is true because we've done the work to verify that it is true.

None of these things are a (the) thing you try to make them be.

There is no objective mind and there is only a belief that there is a subjective mind. There is no evidence the mind exists except in phenomenal reports for those who clam to have one. Phenomenal reports are happenstance, not connected to cause and effect determination. Not evidence.

You insist it is something different without the slightest evidence it is so except the microphone that is your keypad and mouth reporting what has been accomplished and taking credit for doing because you think the whole thing works for a purpose together.

Sorry. it's not true.
 
Last edited:
You are both wrong. the brain is nervous tissue evolved to accomplish survival specific things.

The brain didn't evolve to do anything. There were no pre-established goals.

It evolved and therefore can do things. If it didn't do things that led to survival and reproduction there would be no survival and reproduction.

Yes neurons are switches, multiswitches, variable evaluators, etc.

Switches that work in many ways we don't understand.

And saying there are switches doesn't get you much. It doesn't get you close to a mind.

Switches without software and programming can't do anything.

The important thing is not the switches.

It is the programming that turns mere switches into complex productive units.

The human brain is evolved to understand, construct, and use tools, to speak to keep what has worked in memory and many other things all through the caudrun of trial and error. There is no development of an administrative function that can be point to as a thing called mind. There are many deciders, administrators, coordinators, facilitators throughout the entire brain. Most of these elements never actually communicate with each other.

You are sloppy.

The brain did not evolve to do things.

It evolved therefore it can do things.

And of course it can help the organism survive.

One way it does this is by producing a subjective mind.

How that subjective mind is created is the objective mind.

Your claim that there is no subjective mind is irrational, since you used your subjective mind to shape and form and express those ideas, as tangential and non-responsive to the OP as they are.
 
Your claim that there is no subjective mind is irrational, since you used your subjective mind to shape and form and express those ideas, as tangential and non-responsive to the OP as they are.

Most of your response is either flat wrong or moot.

My descriptions are post hoc only dependent on observation of what the brain does. That an evolved thing is only responsive to drivers of evolution is presumed.

After you go and critique my formation you repeat my formation in your objective based justification of subjective mind. The only objective justification is that the individual survives. There is no subjective mind that would require some ultimate design guidance. To the extent we exhibit behavior is necessarily geared to the requirements imposed by conditions in which we exist and antercedent outcomes. We orally communicate because oral communication confers survival advantages over gestural communication which impedes our evolved ability to make and design tools which provides benefits crucial to our ability to successfully compete for resources.

That we think ahead or explain is essential to planning and teaching which are fundamental to our advantages in hunting and successfully guiding our young through to adulthood. The above is just post hoc recapitulation of what we do and to some extent why it is advantageous to us. There may be a need for one to organize communications in order for it to be coherent to the receiver. To that extent we seem to have evolved a subvocalization based preplay mechanism with which we preview what we articulate.

That's nice, and it's necessary, but, it's not a basis for assertion of a mind. Understanding the mechanics of how we communicate is only at an early stage of understanding to our scientific community. It is probable that our communication processes will be as difficult and multi-headsd as are our visual processes, which, to date, present more than 17 distinct areas for accomplishing. Being complex does not justify invoking nonstarter assertions such as emergence. Not understood is not permission to insert intervening placeholders as if they are real.

We are machines ergo what we do is built into the design which, we both agree, is through the process of evolution. That process being random in nature only dependent on where we are, what the physics of the earth are at the time, and rates of mutation is determined by reproductive outcomes. It is much more forthright to, as I do, explain by observation and experiment. Building models of whole cloth based on comfortable phenomenal extrapolations just don't work. And, as in your case, when repeated over and over becomes mind dulling :poke_with_stick:.
 
You don't understand the basics of evolution.

Nothing is planned.

Nothing evolves to do something.

If something arrives by sheer chance and can help with survival it might remain.

Other than that you have begun to dance as well as wave your arms.

Nothing you wrote is responsive to the OP.

The OP is asking for the specific activity (objective mind) that creates the subjective mind.

If you don't know just say it and move along.

The dance is inane.
 
I am merely clearly defining something.

That you have cognitive dissonance with it is my whole point.

You have been brainwashed so thoroughly you can't see simple things presented simply.

The subjective mind is what we are.

We are minds encased in a body commanding that body to do this and that.

The objective mind is the SPECIFIC ACTIVITY that produces the subjective mind.

And presently we don't have the slightest clue what that activity is.

''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain.

What did I say about presenting studies that do not have any understanding of the objective mind?

It is handwaving and distraction.

And I am talking about command, not control.


You are not clearly defining anything. Your position is untenable. it is an irrational position, irrational because on one hand you claim that nothing is known about 'objective mind' but on the other hand claim that you know that it is the mind that runs the brain, ie, autonomy of mind.

So not only do you claim to know something, while claim that nothing is known, your claim of autonomy of mind is not supported by any of the available evidence on cognition and motor action. In fact that evidence goes against your claim for autonomy of mind.

My position is the subjective mind has objective activity creating it.

My position is the mind is a creation not a miracle.

That you find this position untenable is a funny funny joke.

The objective mind is the specific activity that creates a subjective mind.

To say it does not exist is absolute stupidity!

And my position is that in the real world we MUST do something with our mind to command the arm to move. It does not just move.

Again to deny this is absolute stupidity.
 
Back
Top Bottom