The objective mind

[untermensche]

Give me an action that justifies your belief. Perhaps you thought so you conclude you have mind. Now all you have to do is quantify hought. But no it's mantra, mantra of I believe I believe, hallelujah , I believe. Praise be your deity.

You have formed this opinion with your mind.

Right?

 

[fromderinside]

I was editing so I guess my answer is this edit from https://davidmichie.com/a-problem-with-i-think-therefore-i-am/

let’s say we adopt a yoga pose and experience pain in the knee. In our inner narrative, we don’t say, ‘There’s pain in the knee.’ Instead we say, ‘There’s a pain in my knee’:“In this instinctual moment, an ‘I’ is born that has inserted itself into the phenomenon of pain, but was not initially built into the sensation. In other words, the feeling of pain in ‘my’ knee is an addition to what is unfolding. This is the beginning of duality, because through aversion, a sense of self is created that separates the experience from the one who is experiencing.”

Descartes need not even have put himself through the ordeal of performing sun salutations. Had he simply allowed his mind to settle into its natural state, he would have observed that thoughts arise quite naturally. They just happen. They require no active agent—no me, myself or I. In fact, they arise despite the wishes of the I. Some meditation teachers like to tease their students by asking how a session was for them. If a student says their meditation was disrupted by thoughts, the teacher asks: ‘Did you not choose to have those thoughts?’ When the student shakes their head, the teacher says: ‘If you didn’t cause the thoughts to arise, then who did?’

So why not say after having a thought "there is a thought". It's a thought it's not about you.

There you go there is an opinion who cares whether it's your or mine it's an opinion. I bet rats have opinions. Maybe even certain amoebas have opinions.

But no. Their heads, if they have heads, aren't rotated 90 degrees so how can they have thoughts or opinions

...and the 17th century BS just keeps flowing.

 

[aupmanyav]

The objective mind is the physical creation of the mind by a brain as opposed to the subjective mind which is the individual experience of a mind.
Is the objective mind known and if so what specifically is it?
What specific brain activity is it that creates the subjective mind? How does this activity result in the subjective mind?
What is the objective mind?

The objective mind is an austerity (Hindi/Sanskrit - Tapa, Tapasya). It comes after years of conscious effort. It requires knowledge and power of discernment. Analysis (Viveka) creates it. Abandon analyzing and one gets subjective mind.

 

[WAB]

Lodging my own simple view, I would say "objective mind" is an oxymoron.

The brain is objective: it's an object, and is verifiable beyond any reasonable doubt.

The "mind" is subjective, referring to personal experience which cannot be shared with others (and may be delusional) beyond verbal testimony.

 

[untermensche]

So why not say after having a thought "there is a thought". It's a thought it's not about you.

A thought can originally come about without willful control. Just pop into the mind like dreams just pop into existence.

But the will either believes it or not.

The will holds onto it or not.

The will mixes that thought with another thought or not.

Then the will either types out a finished product or not.

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The objective mind is the physical creation of the mind by a brain as opposed to the subjective mind which is the individual experience of a mind.
Is the objective mind known and if so what specifically is it?
What specific brain activity is it that creates the subjective mind? How does this activity result in the subjective mind?
What is the objective mind?

The objective mind is an austerity (Hindi/Sanskrit - Tapa, Tapasya). It comes after years of conscious effort. It requires knowledge and power of discernment. Analysis (Viveka) creates it. Abandon analyzing and one gets subjective mind.

You're talking about the subjective mind. The feeling of being a mind.

The objective mind is the specific way in which the subjective mind is created.

 

[steve_bank]

I think untermensch is not meaning the same thing we are when we say objective mind.

He seems to refer to objective as being the physical perceptions that are fed to the brain. Sight, sound, touch, and taste.

As he seems to frame it all thought arising from physical sensation is subjective. A different context but a valid perspective philosophically.

Those of us looking at it from a scientific view, or a legal view for that matter, may see the objective vs subjective dichotomy as being the difference between irrefutable evidence like a measurement or say a video of a crime versus interpretation of events to reach a conclusion. Circumstantial evidence versus a smoking gun.

As I see it thoughts arise from physical inputs. Objective and subjective are arbitrary catehortird of thought. In a legal context the same logical thinking process applies to both objective and circumstantial evidence to reach a conclusion.

In science thinking is a combination of both. In cosmology an objective discrepancy arose from observation that conflicted with theory. The subjective solution was to infer something labeled dark matter.

 

[untermensche]

I think untermensch is not meaning the same thing we are when we say objective mind.

He seems to refer to objective as being the physical perceptions that are fed to the brain. Sight, sound, touch, and taste.

Nope.

I mean what I say.

The subjective mind is what we experience.

The objective mind is the specific activity, whatever it is, that produces a subjective mind.

 

[fromderinside]

you say, you say, you say and yet you never say. I pointed out your construction is improper since it invents a source (I) for a process or thing done that doesn't need a source. There was a pain originating from the knee. It isn't your pain. It was a pain originating from the knee.

There was a thought originating in the brain it is not your thought is a thought originating in the brain. Get it through your head you are no in possession of it, the thought. From what I know about articulating thought which is all you know about the thought is that it was subvocalized in the larynx making it public where it was repeated it to others. Machina est.

 

[untermensche]

Either the subjective mind has some objective activity producing it or it exists by a miracle.

If there is an objective activity producing the subjective mind that specific activity is the objective mind.

 

[untermensche]

Lodging my own simple view, I would say "objective mind" is an oxymoron.

The brain is objective: it's an object, and is verifiable beyond any reasonable doubt.

The "mind" is subjective, referring to personal experience which cannot be shared with others (and may be delusional) beyond verbal testimony.

The mind is subjective ....... to the subject.

But it must have an objective cause. The objective mind.

Or it is a miracle.

 

[steve_bank]

Sounds like untermence is left brain dominate. Short staccato sentences and an inability to make inferences. More emotional than logical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

Damage to either the right or left hemisphere, and its resulting deficits provide insight into the function of the damaged area. Right hemisphere damage has many effects on language production and perception. Damage or lesions to the right hemisphere can result in a lack of emotional prosody or intonation when speaking. Right hemisphere damage also has monumental effects on understanding discourse. People with damage to the right hemisphere have a reduced ability to generate inferences, comprehend and produce main concepts and a reduced ability to manage alternative meanings. Furthermore, when engaging in discourse people with right hemisphere damage, their discourse is often abrupt and perfunctory or verbose and excessive. They can also have pragmatic deficits in situations of turn taking, topic maintenance and shared knowledge.[medical citation needed]

Lateral brain damage can also have effects on spatial frequency. People with left hemisphere damage are only able to see low frequency, or big picture, parts of an image. Right hemisphere damage causes damage to low spatial frequency, so people with right hemisphere damage can only see the details of an image, or the high frequency parts of an

 

[DBT]

You have not provided one quote from one study where the objective mind was understood in any way.

To objectively know what the mind can do you have to know what it is first.

It has been explained to you, numerous times, that your use of the term 'objective mind' is bogus. You are making up your own terms and conditions.

Again, mind/consciousness is a subjective experience. Your conscious experience cannot be experienced by anyone else.

Stop using a bogus term. Stop asserting your own unfounded terms and conditions.

If you have evidence to support your claims, provide that evidence.

Lifting your arm at will is not evidence for your idea of 'objective mind'

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Lodging my own simple view, I would say "objective mind" is an oxymoron.

The brain is objective: it's an object, and is verifiable beyond any reasonable doubt.

The "mind" is subjective, referring to personal experience which cannot be shared with others (and may be delusional) beyond verbal testimony.

The mind is subjective ....... to the subject.

But it must have an objective cause. The objective mind.

Or it is a miracle.

OMG.

 

[untermensche]

Sounds like untermence is left brain dominate. Short staccato sentences and an inability to make inferences. More emotional than logical...

The sentences are as long as necessary to convey the idea.

What exactly do you not understand about my description of the objective mind? I have said it over and over.

The subjective mind is the experience of being a mind.

The objective mind is the exact activity that produces the subjective mind.

 

[untermensche]

Again, mind/consciousness is a subjective experience. Your conscious experience cannot be experienced by anyone else.

No shit.

But if there is a subjective mind, the experience of being a mind, then there has to be some kind of activity that produces that subjective mind.

The exact activity is the objective mind.

We are allowed to make up terms if we define them.

We have advanced beyond first grade.

Stop using a bogus term.

Stop calling a clearly defined term bogus.

It is ignorant.

Lifting your arm at will is not evidence for your idea of 'objective mind'

The arm moving at the command of the mind is a subjective experience.

The specific activity responsible for it all is the objective mind.

Why must I define something a thousand times before some can comprehend?

OMG.

When arguments are reduced to this I suspect I am being trolled.

 

[fromderinside]

Either the subjective mind has some objective activity producing it or it exists by a miracle.

If there is an objective activity producing the subjective mind that specific activity is the objective mind.

Then the brain is producing thoughts. It is a machine so it's objective and it's designed to assimilate and manipulate information in such a way that the human operates and communicates. By gosh I think we have it. All of this hand waving and we knew all along the subjective mind is produced by the brain. whowoodathunk.

And when you read DBT's post remember I am a sensory psychophysicist one who, if anyone, understand the meaning of objective mind. Yeah. I'm appealing to authority. Mine.

It's why we compare our sensory capabilities against an ideal observer.

 

[DBT]

Stop calling a clearly defined term bogus.

It is ignorant.

Ignorance is distorting certain terms and references to suit your own agenda, doing this to justify your belief in autonomy of mind.

Conscious mind is not objective mind in the sense that consciousness is an objective experience, it is not.

Some do happen to refer to the conscious mind as 'objective mind' but this form of usage has no relationship to your autonomy of mind.

Conscious mind is not objective. The brain as an information processor does acquire, process and store objective information.....but that does not help establish your claims.

The meaning of Objective and Subjective.
''What does objective mean? Objective means a mind-independent reality. That is, an objective feature of the universe is something that does not rely on my own – or anyone else’s – personal beliefs or feelings on the matter.''

The arm moving at the command of the mind is a subjective experience.

The specific activity responsible for it all is the objective mind.

Why must I define something a thousand times before some can comprehend?

That was wrong the first time you claimed it and it is wrong every time after.

Yet again;

The Motor Cortex;
''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain. One of the brain areas most involved in controlling these voluntary movements is the motor cortex

The motor cortex is located in the rear portion of the frontal lobe, just before the central sulcus (furrow) that separates the frontal lobe from the parietal lobe. The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas.

To carry out goal-directed movements, your motor cortex must first receive various kinds of information from the various lobes of the brain: information about the body's position in space, from the the parietal lobe; about the goal to be attained and an appropriate strategy for attaining it, from the anterior portion of the frontal lobe; about memories of past strategies, from the temporal lobe; and so on.


For you to perform even so simple a gesture as touching the tip of your nose, it is not enough for your brain to simply command your hand and arm muscles to contract. To make the various segments of your hand and arm deploy smoothly, you need an internal "clock" that can precisely regulate the sequence and duration of the elementary movements of each of these segments. That clock is the cerebellum.''

 

[excreationist]

Maybe the objective mind is a synonym for "the functioning brain". If not, what would the synonym be?

 

[aupmanyav]

Perhaps this will work:


Opaque, Translucent, Transparent
Subjective mind, functioning mind, objective mind.

 

[DBT]

Perhaps this will work:

View attachment 17993
Opaque, Translucent, Transparent
Subjective mind, functioning mind, objective mind.

These are just terms referring to different features or aspects of brain/mind function.

There is no actual objective mind in the sense that anyone can access and examine this mind like we can access and examine objects and events of the world, books, cars, houses, animals, plants. lakes, rivers, oceans, etc....these being objective things.

Plus, the problem with untermensches claim is that he takes it too far, claiming autonomy of mind over brain.

 

[untermensche]

Either the subjective mind has some objective activity producing it or it exists by a miracle.

If there is an objective activity producing the subjective mind that specific activity is the objective mind.

Then the brain is producing thoughts.

The brain is a slave to the mind. It is working non-stop to give the mind information and do the sorting the mind commands and store the information the mind desires.

There is a cacophony of information out there.

The brain merely makes presentations of it.

The mind orders it to make sense of it. The mind decides which ideas to believe and which to totally reject.

The mind is in control.

At least mine is.

Every idea I present I present freely with no compulsion and I chose which ideas I will accept and which I will reject freely.

My mind presents finished ideas, not the fragments the brain is filled with.

No mind no purposeful activity.