The objective mind

[untermensche]

You are making up your own rules and conditions. Rules and conditions that are not being used in the field because they are based on the assumption that mind has autonomous control over the brain, decisions and motor actions.

The evidence does not support your rules and conditions.

''If you were someone who understood brain anatomy and were to look at the brain of an animal that you had never seen before, you would nevertheless be able to deduce the likely capacities of the animal. This is because the brains of all animals are very similar in overall form. In each animal the brain is layered, and the basic structures of the brain are similar (see Figure 3.6 "The Major Structures in the Human Brain"). The innermost structures of the brain—the parts nearest the spinal cord—are the oldest part of the brain, and these areas carry out the same the functions they did for our distant ancestors. The “old brain” regulates basic survival functions, such as breathing, moving, resting, and feeding, and creates our experiences of emotion. Mammals, including humans, have developed further brain layers that provide more advanced functions—for instance, better memory, more sophisticated social interactions, and the ability to experience emotions. Humans have a very large and highly developed outer layer known as the cerebral cortex (see Figure 3.7 "Cerebral Cortex"), which makes us particularly adept at these processes.''

I have had more education in brain anatomy and physiology than you have.

The objective mind is not understood at all.

In no study you could provide is there any understanding of the objective mind and what it can do.

Your conclusions are based entirely on preconceptions, not any knowledge of the objective mind and what it can do. It is religious babble.

Try an experiment.

Try to get your arm to move without first commanding it with your mind.

 

[fromderinside]

I thought we were talking about motivation not "neural chemical evolution". So whatever motivates a mind would internally be classified as positive, neutral or negative (or a mixture). If it is self-aware it can be aware of whether it should seek or avoid those things so that it can make decisions. It can weigh up things during that process. I think manta rays and horseshoe crabs can seek and avoid things but they wouldn't be aware of the thought process in a self-conscious way.

I'm a reductionist. So when you impute some magic word for motive I resort to underlying modifiable bases that would underlie such 'behavior'. Motives are man created to markers for underlying processes at work.

If you are familiar with the fighting fish studies of early to mid 20th century you will realize behaviors are composites of underlying processes. A nest defender is motivated by both approach and withdraw underlying processes when it carries out its waggle dance in the presence of a potential mate near it's bubble nest, reflecting an apparent conflict between 'approach' and 'withdrawal'.

I had the misfortune of working in Jim Old's lab at CalTech in the late seventies after having completed my Phd in psychophysics at FSU. At that time we were doing multicellular studies in midbrain and hypothalamus where neural and chemical activity is regulated for such as approach and withdraw looking at feedback networks in associated sensory and effector pathways.

So I guess I shouldn't be talking here since I'm going to have a very negative input to speculative behavioral science and associated longball philosophy.

 

[DBT]

You are making up your own rules and conditions. Rules and conditions that are not being used in the field because they are based on the assumption that mind has autonomous control over the brain, decisions and motor actions.

The evidence does not support your rules and conditions.

''If you were someone who understood brain anatomy and were to look at the brain of an animal that you had never seen before, you would nevertheless be able to deduce the likely capacities of the animal. This is because the brains of all animals are very similar in overall form. In each animal the brain is layered, and the basic structures of the brain are similar (see Figure 3.6 "The Major Structures in the Human Brain"). The innermost structures of the brain—the parts nearest the spinal cord—are the oldest part of the brain, and these areas carry out the same the functions they did for our distant ancestors. The “old brain” regulates basic survival functions, such as breathing, moving, resting, and feeding, and creates our experiences of emotion. Mammals, including humans, have developed further brain layers that provide more advanced functions—for instance, better memory, more sophisticated social interactions, and the ability to experience emotions. Humans have a very large and highly developed outer layer known as the cerebral cortex (see Figure 3.7 "Cerebral Cortex"), which makes us particularly adept at these processes.''

I have had more education in brain anatomy and physiology than you have.

So you claim. But it is obvious that you don't have a clue. Sorry to have to say.

You ignore logic, reason, research, experiments, evidence, the analysis of experts in their field......only to assert your own rules and conditions.

You have never given a rational argument based on evidence. Your claims being based on the experience of moving at will, which has been shown beyond reasonable doubt to be a brain function and not autonomous mind.

 

[untermensche]

You are making up your own rules and conditions. Rules and conditions that are not being used in the field because they are based on the assumption that mind has autonomous control over the brain, decisions and motor actions.

The evidence does not support your rules and conditions.

''If you were someone who understood brain anatomy and were to look at the brain of an animal that you had never seen before, you would nevertheless be able to deduce the likely capacities of the animal. This is because the brains of all animals are very similar in overall form. In each animal the brain is layered, and the basic structures of the brain are similar (see Figure 3.6 "The Major Structures in the Human Brain"). The innermost structures of the brain—the parts nearest the spinal cord—are the oldest part of the brain, and these areas carry out the same the functions they did for our distant ancestors. The “old brain” regulates basic survival functions, such as breathing, moving, resting, and feeding, and creates our experiences of emotion. Mammals, including humans, have developed further brain layers that provide more advanced functions—for instance, better memory, more sophisticated social interactions, and the ability to experience emotions. Humans have a very large and highly developed outer layer known as the cerebral cortex (see Figure 3.7 "Cerebral Cortex"), which makes us particularly adept at these processes.''

I have had more education in brain anatomy and physiology than you have.

So you claim. But it is obvious that you don't have a clue. Sorry to have to say.

You ignore logic, reason, research, experiments, evidence, the analysis of experts in their field......only to assert your own rules and conditions.

You have never given a rational argument based on evidence. Your claims being based on the experience of moving at will, which has been shown beyond reasonable doubt to be a brain function and not autonomous mind.

All you have to do is tell me exactly in your own words what the objective mind is.

What specific activity gives rise to the subjective mind? That is the objective mind.

Not some babble about electrochemical activity.

There is no known chemical or electrical effect that produces a mind.

What specific activity?

And to prove it tell me exactly how this activity results in a mind.

You have no clue what the objective mind is and are very dishonest about that fact.

To know what something can do requires knowing what it is.

Nobody knows what the mind can do because nobody knows what the objective mind is.

All we know is if we want the arm to move purposefully we have to do something in our subjective mind to do it. It takes effort, will. We are not puppets. We are the puppeteer.

 

[DBT]

So you claim. But it is obvious that you don't have a clue. Sorry to have to say.

You ignore logic, reason, research, experiments, evidence, the analysis of experts in their field......only to assert your own rules and conditions.

You have never given a rational argument based on evidence. Your claims being based on the experience of moving at will, which has been shown beyond reasonable doubt to be a brain function and not autonomous mind.

All you have to do is tell me exactly in your own words what the objective mind is.

.

You don't appear to be reading what I say.

To repeat.

From post #116

It is your use of the term ''objective mind that is bogus and not that the researchers ''have no clue what the objective mind is''

What we call mind/consciousness is a subjective experience generated by a brain. Mind is subjective.

The objective component of subjective mind being information that can be shared amongst minds, information about the external world that can be verified and tested.

That, briefly, is why your claims have no merit.


Introduction

''The brain is the most complex part of the human body. This three-pound organ is the seat of intelligence, interpreter of the senses, initiator of body movement, and controller of behavior. Lying in its bony shell and washed by protective fluid, the brain is the source of all the qualities that define our humanity. The brain is the crown jewel of the human body.

For centuries, scientists and philosophers have been fascinated by the brain, but until recently they viewed the brain as nearly incomprehensible. Now, however, the brain is beginning to relinquish its secrets. Scientists have learned more about the brain in the last 10 years than in all previous centuries because of the accelerating pace of research in neurological and behavioral science and the development of new research techniques. As a result, Congress named the 1990s the Decade of the Brain. At the forefront of research on the brain and other elements of the nervous system is the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS), which conducts and supports scientific studies in the United States and around the world.

This fact sheet is a basic introduction to the human brain. It may help you understand how the healthy brain works, how to keep it healthy, and what happens when the brain is diseased or dysfunctional.''

 

[untermensche]

I clearly explained what the objective mind is.

The subjective mind is what we experience WITH that which can experience.

The objective mind is specifically HOW the subjective mind arises. It is the specific activity that creates the phenomena of a subjective mind.

It is not a bogus idea.

Your claim it is something bogus is insanity!!!

Again.

All you have to do to show you are not FULL OF SHIT is explain IN YOUR OWN WORDS the specific activity that gives rise to the subjective mind. Babbling "electrochemical or chemoelectric" does not count. The specific activity. And to prove it is the specific activity you have to show exactly HOW a subjective mind arises from the activity.

You do not have a clue what the objective mind is and you are not honest about that fact.

I am engaging with a liar.

Therefore it goes on and on.

 

[DBT]

I clearly explained what the objective mind is.

The subjective mind is what we experience WITH that which can experience.

The objective mind is specifically HOW the subjective mind arises. It is the specific activity that creates the phenomena of a subjective mind.

It is not a bogus idea.

It is wrong for all the reasons that have been given numerous times.

I
Your claim it is something bogus is insanity!!!

Again.

All you have to do to show you are not FULL OF SHIT is explain IN YOUR OWN WORDS the specific activity that gives rise to the subjective mind. Babbling "electrochemical or chemoelectric" does not count. The specific activity. And to prove it is the specific activity you have to show exactly HOW a subjective mind arises from the activity.

You do not have a clue what the objective mind is and you are not honest about that fact.

I am engaging with a liar.

Therefore it goes on and on.

Throwing a dummy spit doesn't change the fact that your idea of autonomy of mind is wrong.


Experiments in brain agency;

''The first, published in the journal Psychological Science, wanted to find out if the brain can track visual targets even when the eyes are duped into believing the targets aren’t there. Researchers at the Brain and Mind Institute at the University of Western Ontario exposed participants to an optical trick known as the “connectedness illusion” that causes viewers to underestimate the number of circles (targets) on a screen.

Two groups of circles are presented, one group on the left side of a screen and one on the right. The circles in one group are connected to tiny lines, but the circles aren’t connected to each other. In the other group, the circles are connected to each other via the lines. What consistently happens is that our eyes perceive fewer circles in the connected group than in the disconnected group, even though the number of circles in both groups is exactly the same.

The connectedness illusion is a proven way to trick the eyes, and it worked like a charm in this study: participants didn’t see all of the connected circles. But when they were given a task to “act” on the targets, researchers found that participants shifted from visual “seeing” to what you might call brain-sight. They were able to strategically plan actions that included all of the targets even though they didn’t visually perceive them.

The reason seems to be that visual processing operates along two paths. The first is the one we’re most familiar with—how we visually perceive the world. The second is what our brains are unconsciously up to while we’re focused on merely “seeing."

 

[untermensche]

It is not wrong.

YOU ARE EVADING.

If there is a subjective mind then it has to arise in some manner.

The way it arises is the objective mind.

Now put up or shut up.

What specific activity gives rise to the subjective mind and how does it happen to prove you know?

In your own fucking words!!!

Not a link to a study you do not understand.

Your evasions are pathetically transparent.

And tiresome.

I am engaging with a LIAR.

So it goes on and on.

 

[DBT]

It is not wrong.

YOU ARE EVADING.

If there is a subjective mind then it has to arise in some manner.

The way it arises is the objective mind.

Now put up or shut up.

What specific activity gives rise to the subjective mind and how does it happen to prove you know?

In your own fucking words!!!

Not a link to a study you do not understand.

Your evasions are pathetically transparent.

And tiresome.

I am engaging with a LIAR.

So it goes on and on.

Wow, that is the Mother of Dummy Spits.

What a performance.

Gosh, it looks like a full blown Hissy Fit!


The Motor Cortex;
''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain. One of the brain areas most involved in controlling these voluntary movements is the motor cortex

The motor cortex is located in the rear portion of the frontal lobe, just before the central sulcus (furrow) that separates the frontal lobe from the parietal lobe. The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas.

To carry out goal-directed movements, your motor cortex must first receive various kinds of information from the various lobes of the brain: information about the body's position in space, from the the parietal lobe; about the goal to be attained and an appropriate strategy for attaining it, from the anterior portion of the frontal lobe; about memories of past strategies, from the temporal lobe; and so on.


For you to perform even so simple a gesture as touching the tip of your nose, it is not enough for your brain to simply command your hand and arm muscles to contract. To make the various segments of your hand and arm deploy smoothly, you need an internal "clock" that can precisely regulate the sequence and duration of the elementary movements of each of these segments. That clock is the cerebellum.''

 

[excreationist]

edit:
DBT I was saying that you seemed to quote quite a bit of unnecessary text but then I looked at the link you gave and it turns out it is a really informative resource:
http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/index.php

 

[fromderinside]

I interrupt to say "You're a good man (whatever) Charley Br, er, excreationis. Not many would pause to adjust ones comments when one reflects on threads that seem to be all to competitive. Bow before you in public.

Back to the OP.

 

[fromderinside]

It is not wrong.

YOU ARE EVADING.

If there is a subjective mind then it has to arise in some manner.

The way it arises is the objective mind.

Now put up or shut up.

What specific activity gives rise to the subjective mind and how does it happen to prove you know?

In your own fucking words!!!

Not a link to a study you do not understand.

Your evasions are pathetically transparent.

And tiresome.

I am engaging with a LIAR.

So it goes on and on.

Wow, that is the Mother of Dummy Spits.

What a performance.

Gosh, it looks like a full blown Hissy Fit!


The Motor Cortex;
''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain. One of the brain areas most involved in controlling these voluntary movements is the motor cortex

The motor cortex is located in the rear portion of the frontal lobe, just before the central sulcus (furrow) that separates the frontal lobe from the parietal lobe. The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas.

To carry out goal-directed movements, your motor cortex must first receive various kinds of information from the various lobes of the brain: information about the body's position in space, from the the parietal lobe; about the goal to be attained and an appropriate strategy for attaining it, from the anterior portion of the frontal lobe; about memories of past strategies, from the temporal lobe; and so on.


For you to perform even so simple a gesture as touching the tip of your nose, it is not enough for your brain to simply command your hand and arm muscles to contract. To make the various segments of your hand and arm deploy smoothly, you need an internal "clock" that can precisely regulate the sequence and duration of the elementary movements of each of these segments. That clock is the cerebellum.''

Piling on here. I just posted some stuff where scientists were looking at bidirectional and across channel feedback as information was being processed in primary channels. Stuff doesn't just simply get from here to there. It gets processed by existent information and new information and collateral information as it gets there. Way different than photon from object to eye.

 

[DBT]

edit:
DBT I was saying that you seemed to quote quite a bit of unnecessary text

Not if you consider my reason for quoting the text in relation to who I happen to be responding to.

 

[excreationist]

edit:
DBT I was saying that you seemed to quote quite a bit of unnecessary text

Not if you consider my reason for quoting the text in relation to who I happen to be responding to.

Personally I would have used a dot dot dot instead of things like the following:

"The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas."

 

[DBT]

edit:
DBT I was saying that you seemed to quote quite a bit of unnecessary text

Not if you consider my reason for quoting the text in relation to who I happen to be responding to.

Personally I would have used a dot dot dot instead of things like the following:

"The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas."

That's up to you. I don't think that there is anything that could possibly be said or quoted that would help that poster change his mind about autonomy of mind, a 'smart mind' operating a 'dumb brain'

 

[untermensche]

It is not wrong.

YOU ARE EVADING.

If there is a subjective mind then it has to arise in some manner.

The way it arises is the objective mind.

Now put up or shut up.

What specific activity gives rise to the subjective mind and how does it happen to prove you know?

In your own fucking words!!!

Not a link to a study you do not understand.

Your evasions are pathetically transparent.

And tiresome.

I am engaging with a LIAR.

So it goes on and on.

Wow, that is the Mother of Dummy Spits.

What a performance.

Gosh, it looks like a full blown Hissy Fit!


The Motor Cortex;
''All of the body's voluntary movements are controlled by the brain. One of the brain areas most involved in controlling these voluntary movements is the motor cortex

The motor cortex is located in the rear portion of the frontal lobe, just before the central sulcus (furrow) that separates the frontal lobe from the parietal lobe. The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas.

To carry out goal-directed movements, your motor cortex must first receive various kinds of information from the various lobes of the brain: information about the body's position in space, from the the parietal lobe; about the goal to be attained and an appropriate strategy for attaining it, from the anterior portion of the frontal lobe; about memories of past strategies, from the temporal lobe; and so on.


For you to perform even so simple a gesture as touching the tip of your nose, it is not enough for your brain to simply command your hand and arm muscles to contract. To make the various segments of your hand and arm deploy smoothly, you need an internal "clock" that can precisely regulate the sequence and duration of the elementary movements of each of these segments. That clock is the cerebellum.''

Another fucking dodge!!! That is all you have is evasions and dodges.

In your OWN FUCKING WORDS!!!

Stop hiding behind shit you don't understand at all.

It is one question.

What specific activity gives rise to the subjective mind and how does it happen to prove you know?

You do not have a clue what the objective mind is and are totally dishonest about that fact.

You are fundamentally dishonest.

So this goes on and on.

 

[untermensche]

I interrupt to say "You're a good man (whatever) Charley Br, er, excreationis. Not many would pause to adjust ones comments when one reflects on threads that seem to be all to competitive. Bow before you in public.

Back to the OP.

It is a thread with one question and some people lying that they have a clue as to it's answer.

It is a thread asking for the specific activity that produces the subjective mind.

Do you know?

Do you have a clue?

Not some worthless bullshit about manta rays.

The objective mind.

 

[untermensche]

Personally I would have used a dot dot dot instead of things like the following:

"The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas."

That's up to you. I don't think that there is anything that could possibly be said or quoted that would help that poster change his mind about autonomy of mind, a 'smart mind' operating a 'dumb brain'

All you have to do is stop with your bullshitting and answer the question posed in the OP.

You are nothing but a bag of wind bullshitting all over the place in this thread.

What is the objective mind?

Not some link to another study that does not have a clue what the objective mind is.

Why don't you just admit you don't have a clue and be done with it?

Because I am going to give you shit for every evasion.

And that is all you have done EVADE.

What specifically is the objective mind?

When you know that you will also know what the mind can and cannot do. Not before.

 

[untermensche]

edit:
DBT I was saying that you seemed to quote quite a bit of unnecessary text

Not if you consider my reason for quoting the text in relation to who I happen to be responding to.

Personally I would have used a dot dot dot instead of things like the following:

"The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas."

We have a great deal of anatomical knowledge. It is easy albeit tedious to gain this knowledge.

We know SOME physiology. The bare basics. We know that cells are effected by transmitters, how specifically they are effected we do not know in most cases.

We can scan the brain, look at it's gross electrical activity, but we do not see the objective mind in any of it.

We have NO CLUE how the subjective mind arises. We do not know what activity produces it. We don't understand how a bunch of cells produces a mind at all.

There is not one study that has ever examined the objective mind and how it functions. Yet some are so lost they they think we have. We don't know what it is.

But we do know beyond doubt that we have to actively do "something" with our mind to make our arm move.

When we understand what the objective mind is we will possibly understand what that "something" is.

 

[DBT]

Personally I would have used a dot dot dot instead of things like the following:

"The motor cortex is divided into two main areas, Area 4 and Area 6. Area 4, also known as the primary motor cortex, forms a thin band along the central sulcus. Area 6 lies immediately forward of Area 4. Area 6 is wider and is further subdivided into two distinct sub-areas."

That's up to you. I don't think that there is anything that could possibly be said or quoted that would help that poster change his mind about autonomy of mind, a 'smart mind' operating a 'dumb brain'

All you have to do is stop with your bullshitting and answer the question posed in the OP.

You are nothing but a bag of wind bullshitting all over the place in this thread.

What is the objective mind?

Not some link to another study that does not have a clue what the objective mind is.

Why don't you just admit you don't have a clue and be done with it?

Because I am going to give you shit for every evasion.

And that is all you have done EVADE.

What specifically is the objective mind?

When you know that you will also know what the mind can and cannot do. Not before.

It has all been explained to you, both what is understood and what is not understood, and that just because everything is not understood doesn't mean that nothing is understood.

You ignore all explanations, all quotes, links to research, experiments, evidence, analysis by researchers...anything and everything that does not conform to your belief in autonomy of mind or your unfounded version of 'objective mind'...then when it gets too much for you to deal with rationally, you resort to dummy spits, ad homs, insults and abuse.

A poor effort.

Try to do better.

Or else just believe whatever satisfies your emotional needs in private, but don't try to argue for something, autonomy of mind, that has no evidence to support it.