The objective mind

[DBT]

I say over and over that the autonomous contemplative mind is generated by the reflexive brain.

And when the reflexive brain has dysfunction this can also cause dysfunction of the mind.

But when the brain is operating properly so is the autonomous contemplative mind.

You do say that. You do say these things. Repeating what you say and claim is not enough.

Your problem lies in not giving any explanations for how such autonomy is possible.....or the chance of ever providing a shred of evidence that happens to support your claim for autonomy of mind.

You haven't shown how it is impossible for some unknown "entity" created by unknown activity to have autonomy.

Just as I can't show that Invisible Magic Pixies don't live at the bottom of my Garden.

 

[untermensche]

You haven't shown how it is impossible for some unknown "entity" created by unknown activity to have autonomy.

Just as I can't show that Invisible Magic Pixies don't live at the bottom of my Garden.

No.

You have to understand the specific activity of the brain that is creating the mind and how it is doing it.

You have to know what the objective mind is.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I'm quite sure the part of our mind which can report it is subjectively conscious is supported by some specific parts of the brain...

The "I'm" in your statement is your mind.

You obviously don't know that.

But it's almost certain that it's my brain rather than my mind.

But I am talking about calmly and deliberately moving the arm when and how you choose.

That the mind's control is not absolute does not mean that it has no control.

I'm talking about your brain calmly and deliberately moving your arm when and how it chooses. You're the part of the brain which is conscious of this process. A robot would talk exactly like you. And I would agree that the robot is free to move it's arm, calmly and deliberately.
EB

 

[untermensche]

You obviously don't know that.

But it's almost certain that it's my brain rather than my mind.

A brain and something that arises from activity are not the same thing.

I'm talking about your brain calmly and deliberately moving your arm when and how it chooses.

When you choose or some tissue chooses?

Tissue does not choose. It reacts.

 

[DBT]

You haven't shown how it is impossible for some unknown "entity" created by unknown activity to have autonomy.

Just as I can't show that Invisible Magic Pixies don't live at the bottom of my Garden.

No.

You have to understand the specific activity of the brain that is creating the mind and how it is doing it.

You have to know what the objective mind is.

These are your own terms and references, not mine and probably not many others. Do you know what 'objective mind' is and how it emerges? If you know something about it, can you explain it?

 

[excreationist]

....The "I'm" in your statement is your mind....

BTW I think this "I'm" starts out spoken out loud when people are toddlers and then they can internalize it so it is silent.

 

[DBT]

I'm quite sure the part of our mind which can report it is subjectively conscious is supported by some specific parts of the brain...

The "I'm" in your statement is your mind.

The ''I'm'' in the statement is an example of a brain responding in conscious form....the collection of features and attributes of the phenomena of consciousness being what we refer to as 'conscious mind'

 

[untermensche]

I'm quite sure the part of our mind which can report it is subjectively conscious is supported by some specific parts of the brain...

The "I'm" in your statement is your mind.

The ''I'm'' in the statement is an example of a brain responding in conscious form....the collection of features and attributes of the phenomena of consciousness being what we refer to as 'conscious mind'

You are right about one thing. The brain responds.

It responds to the commands of the mind.

You merely say that everything the active contemplative mind does is really done by the reflexive responsive brain.

Without any evidence.

It is absolute nonsense.

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No.

You have to understand the specific activity of the brain that is creating the mind and how it is doing it.

You have to know what the objective mind is.

These are your own terms and references, not mine and probably not many others. Do you know what 'objective mind' is and how it emerges? If you know something about it, can you explain it?

It is a term yes.

But it is a term describing something that MUST exist.

If the subjective mind is created by activity then the activity is the objective mind.

Are you saying the subjective mind exists without any activity?

 

[Speakpigeon]

You obviously don't know that.

But it's almost certain that it's my brain rather than my mind.

A brain and something that arises from activity are not the same thing.

And then what? It's still the brain that decides to move the arm. Your mind doesn't even know there's a brain or an arm. All it knows is itself.

I'm talking about your brain calmly and deliberately moving your arm when and how it chooses.

When you choose or some tissue chooses?

You don't understand English? I'm talking about your brain calmly and deliberately moving your arm when and how it chooses.

Tissue does not choose. It reacts.

Who says?

Ah, yes, your brain.

My brain is happy to say that there isn't any difference and you obviously couldn't prove otherwise. Your ontology is just a belief.

The brain is a complex cognitive system and it is perfectly able to decide what to do depending on its perception of the situation. There is no need to assume there is a mind to explain what people do.
EB

 

[untermensche]

Minds have cognition.

It is an act of personification to say that the brain or the spleen have cognition too.

It is irrational.

 

[DBT]

Minds have cognition.

It is an act of personification to say that the brain or the spleen have cognition too.

It is irrational.

Minds have nothing and do nothing that a brain is not doing.

Minds don't exist without brain activity forming mind.

Cognition is a function of a brain, as is motor function.

Consciously moving your arm is the function of a brain, which sends signals to muscle groups while generating the conscious experience of the action and the reason why.

You really need to consider the research.

This is just basic stuff.

 

[untermensche]

Minds have cognition.

It is an act of personification to say that the brain or the spleen have cognition too.

It is irrational.

Minds have nothing and do nothing that a brain is not doing...

You don't even know what the mind is no less what it can do.

This is not knowledge it is something you have faith in.

It is a religious belief not a scientific belief.

There is no reason to doubt clear experience.

 

[Macroscopist]

Something that is very unlikely to exist.

 

[DBT]

Minds have cognition.

It is an act of personification to say that the brain or the spleen have cognition too.

It is irrational.

Minds have nothing and do nothing that a brain is not doing...

You don't even know what the mind is no less what it can do.

This is not knowledge it is something you have faith in.

It is a religious belief not a scientific belief.

There is no reason to doubt clear experience.

You just say whatever you think helps bolster your belief in autonomy of mind. You ignore science, the experiments, evidence, case studies, the consequences of brain dysfunction, analysis, etc, etc, in order to maintain your own beliefs.....

Hint; you cannot experience the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience of agency.

 

[untermensche]

You don't even know what the mind is no less what it can do.

This is not knowledge it is something you have faith in.

It is a religious belief not a scientific belief.

There is no reason to doubt clear experience.

You just say whatever you think helps bolster your belief in autonomy of mind. You ignore science, the experiments, evidence, case studies, the consequences of brain dysfunction, analysis, etc, etc, in order to maintain your own beliefs.....

Hint; you cannot experience the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience of agency.

There is no science that can help us understand the mind.

No scientist knows what the mind is.

In all these tedious worthless studies the mind is always merely subjective reports.

That is all science knows of the mind.

It can freely make reports.

If the mind could not freely make reports then even the subjective reports are worthless.

- - - Updated - - -

Something that is very unlikely to exist.

Things that don't exist can't form ideas and then post them on line.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Minds have cognition.

It is an act of personification to say that the brain or the spleen have cognition too.

It is irrational.

You say that you don't have knowledge about the world but that you know that the arm you experience is moving. It's really just absurd.

You say you don't know anything about the world, therefore you don't know anything about brains and therefore you don't know that brains are not what decides to and effectively moves the arm.
EB

 

[DBT]

It appears like the contradictions don't even register....

 

[untermensche]

Minds have cognition.

It is an act of personification to say that the brain or the spleen have cognition too.

It is irrational.

You say that you don't have knowledge about the world but that you know that the arm you experience is moving. It's really just absurd.

I experience the arm moving. I can see and feel the movement.

And I KNOW there is no experience of the arm moving as I desire it to move until I do something with my mind. It doesn't happen without me doing something.

I know I am doing something, willing something because I am doing it not just experiencing it.

Just like I know I am forcing the experience of my hands to type these words.

The mind knows what it is experiencing and what it is doing.

The rest is faith.

 

[DBT]

You cannot experience the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience. That being the critical part that you meticulously ignore. That being the problem. This willful ignorance of the means and mechanisms of conscious experience being the source of your misconceptions.

 

[untermensche]

You cannot experience the mechanisms and means of your conscious experience. That being the critical part that you meticulously ignore. That being the problem. This willful ignorance of the means and mechanisms of conscious experience being the source of your misconceptions.

What specific mechanisms might those be?

You mean the mechanisms you know nothing about?

Never claimed to be able to experience the mechanisms.

You can only experience giving the command and then experience the arm moving as desired after the command is given. Never before.

Because the contemplative controlling mind is just giving the command. The dumb slave reflexive brain is doing the moving.