The Pandemic And Religious Beliefs

[Keith&Co.]

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

So, an omnibenevolent deity is USING DEATH to achieve his benign goals, this is your thesis.

Do you not see that this is NOT solving the dilemma?
I mean, really, it doesn't fucking matter if the end is near. Or tomorrow. Or in ten minutes.
Where was God when 1100 people died yesterday?

 

[Learner]

My guess: the great wrap-up is still waiting on one determined kayak missionary, working his way to the last of the Aleutians. He's got the Covid 19, so he's hurrying (getting the trots in a kayak: MURDER.) Once he's covered Kiska, Agattu, and Attu, he'll have blessed the faithful, converted the receptive, and infected all the atheists. Then come the end times. But he's gotta reach that last family of walrus hunters on the western tip of Attu. And if there's a Sam Harris book in the igloo, watch out.

You just reminded me of something. Another Christian viewed it as signs of the times to come , meaning that it's not neccessary to have ears to listen BUT rather... the Gospel had been preached there! I think that sounds more to the scripture.

Besides if the fellow had a Sam Harris book ordered from amazon then it's likeley he's heard of William Lane Craig. Location Preached!

 

[Learner]

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

So, an omnibenevolent deity is USING DEATH to achieve his benign goals, this is your thesis.

Do you not see that this is NOT solving the dilemma?
I mean, really, it doesn't fucking matter if the end is near. Or tomorrow. Or in ten minutes.
Where was God when 1100 people died yesterday?

But is that not the ideal world people wanted that you're living in now? A world without God? No Commandments to follow? Independence from God? This is not God's world anymore.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

So, an omnibenevolent deity is USING DEATH to achieve his benign goals, this is your thesis.

Do you not see that this is NOT solving the dilemma?
I mean, really, it doesn't fucking matter if the end is near. Or tomorrow. Or in ten minutes.
Where was God when 1100 people died yesterday?

But is that not the ideal world people wanted and you're living in now?

A world without God?

1) You can point, then, to where i have ever said i WANT a godless world?

2) What difference would it make if i had this desire? How is it that my desire for meaningless suffering forces a tri-omni being to ignore suffering?

No Commandments to follow?

Again, where did i express this desire, AND how would that justify an infinitely benevolent being's inaction in the face of suffering?

Independence from God?

As above, both questions.

Just as it says in the scriptures...you keep missing ...this is satan's world now.

Which only matters a fuck if Satan is more powerful than god.

The world we both experience is incompatible with your described skybeast.

 

[Learner]

In the end there is suffering. Who started it matters not. God, Satan, Man, random chance, physics, evolution, bats...

It matters who ends it. It all ends....in the end.

Are you saying that it's okay if I beat my wife for years and years, as long as when it stops it's because I stopped it?

That seems rather.... monstrous. Are you sure that's your definition of benevolence?

Things would have been so much better if one 'loved his neighbour and treated them like he would like to be treated himself'.

 

[Rhea]

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

So, an omnibenevolent deity is USING DEATH to achieve his benign goals, this is your thesis.

Do you not see that this is NOT solving the dilemma?
I mean, really, it doesn't fucking matter if the end is near. Or tomorrow. Or in ten minutes.
Where was God when 1100 people died yesterday?

But is that not the ideal world people wanted that you're living in now? A world without God? No Commandments to follow? Independence from God? This is not God's world anymore.

Nice dodge. Why did you choose to run from the question of your god deliberately causing 1100 deaths yesterday?


Also, for the record, we already live in a world without god, with no commandments to follow.
We're asking about your world, and your definition of your god.
And you're running away from answering about your faith.

One asks oneself, "now why would he choose to do that?"

 

[Rhea]

Are you saying that it's okay if I beat my wife for years and years, as long as when it stops it's because I stopped it?

That seems rather.... monstrous. Are you sure that's your definition of benevolence?

Things would have been so much better if one 'loved his neighbour and treated them like he would like to be treated himself'.

Again, nice dodge. One wonders why you choose to not answer the question: If you say that it doesn't matter that suffering is caused, or watched, or condoned, for whatever length of time, that it only matters who stops it - even if it's the same person who caused it, why would that be a rational belief?

That appears to be what you said above. The context was, in case you've forgotten while you were running your dodge,

1. There's a virus
2. You say that your god creates all things
3. The virus is killing and maiming people
4. You say, that's not a problem because you believe your god will stop it at some point, after many tens of thousands are dead,
5. And therefore it's not a problem that your god did this


And I said - that's pretty monstrous.

And then you said DODGE AND WEAVE AND AVOID!

Did you do that because you saw that it was monstrous and you had no defense so you ran away in the hopes we'd forget you were a person who thought monstrous was divine?
Or, why did you choose to run away from the question?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Besides if the fellow had a Sam Harris book ordered from amazon then it's likeley he's heard of William Lane Craig.

Washed overboard. Belonged to the atheistic skipper of a halibut trawler. Instantly struck a chord with Nanook III.

 

[Learner]

But is that not the ideal world people wanted and you're living in now?

A world without God?

1) You can point, then, to where i have ever said i WANT a godless world?

Ok, I see, good to know, just take people to mean anyone who does.

2) What difference would it make if i had this desire? How is it that my desire for meaningless suffering forces a tri-omni being to ignore suffering?

It is the way it is...

(Logically a theist POV.) IF God was here like He was in the OT, directly involved .. He'd have to give and pass Judgment...right there and then, right here and NOW, i.e. there'd be none of us (including me) left around simply because God as true to His word, HAS to follow through and abide by the mutually agreed Covenants and the commandments we fall short of ...

To me and other believers... God cannot retract a binding contract and He can't bend the rules no matter how painful it is for Him. It requires the attributes of God to maintain such laws to each and every written word without ever faltering.


* EDIT: And It requires the attributes of God to think of sending a Saviour when bound by the rules!

Again, where did i express this desire, AND how would that justify an infinitely benevolent being's inaction in the face of suffering?

Same as above.

Which only matters a fuck if Satan is more powerful than god.

The world we both experience is incompatible with your described skybeast.

Satan or the aptly named skybeast that falls from heaven etc., can't stop or change the prophesy in revelation. These things have to happen accordingly to as it's written...to be a prophecy. It's not pleasant and Christians are expected to suffer too.


Hey I'm a simple man and respond in simple ways.

 

[Learner]

Nice dodge. Why did you choose to run from the question of your god deliberately causing 1100 deaths yesterday?


Also, for the record, we already live in a world without god, with no commandments to follow.
We're asking about your world, and your definition of your god.
And you're running away from answering about your faith.

One asks oneself, "now why would he choose to do that?"

Previous post should be sufficient here for "dodge" i and 2. I hope.

(I'm a little tired at the mo, apologies)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ok, I see, good to know, just take people to mean anyone who does.

Except you're not IN a discusion with an imaginary person, and, still doesn't explain why an ALMIGHTY GOD cares what some people want.
My kid wanted to fly. I dod not sit idly and watch him climb up onto the roof for his 'running start.'

It is the way it is...

nice dodge. I asked a WHY and you give 'sometimes it be like that...'

(Logically a theist POV.) IF God was here like He was in the OT, directly involved .. He'd have to give and pass Judgment...right there and then, right here and NOW, i.e. there'd be none of us (including me) left around simply because God as true to His word, HAS to follow through and abide by the mutually agreed Covenants and the commandments we fall short of ...

How is it that your omniscient god doesn't already kniw how we will do at the time of judgment?
What do we possibly gain by a little more time?
The 1100 who died yesterday, why did they have to suffer for a still-to-come Judgment thst's already accomplished?

To me and other believers... God cannot retract a binding contract and He can't bend the rules no matter how painful it is for Him.

so, rules are more important to him than his benevolence?
And don't forget omniscience, afain. He knew when he set up the rules and allowed sufferingbthsst he'd be in this position. So, he is still entirely responsible for all suffering. That kinda makes him an evil fuck.

It requires the attributes of God to maintain such laws to each and every written word without ever faltering.

uh huh... but mostly that looks like a made-up reason for God not doing dick, exactly the way he wouldn't do dick if he didn't exist.

* EDIT: And It requires God to think to send a Saviour when bound by the rules!

rules he made, knowing full well what they would end up doing, right?
He cannot act surprised or disappointed that ANYONE earns Hell, and yet he went forward with this universe?
Why should i worship such a being? He's a total fuckhead.

Satan or the aptly named skybeast that falls from heaven etc., can't stop or change the prophesy in revelation. These things have to happen accordingly to as it's written...to be a prophecy. It's not pleasant and Christians are expected to suffer too.

So, why thank his royal sadism for this world, then?

Hey I'm a simple man and respond in simple ways.

there's a difference between simple and simplistic...

 

[Rhea]

Ok, I see, good to know, just take people to mean anyone who does.

Are you okay with us attributing to you any characteristic of any Christian? Would that be accurate? Fred Phelps?

We ask YOU specific questions to find out what YOU believe (knowing full well that it's different from the next christian, that's why there's anything interesting at all in conversing with you), so you can do the same and talk to us like we're individual humans. Then you don't have to bring imaginary people into the conversation to support your point with fictional "evidence" about the people that are actually right in front of you.

... because God as true to His word, HAS to follow through and abide by the mutually agreed Covenants and the commandments we fall short of ...

SCREECHES TO A HALT....
Wait, when did any of us mutually agree to anything with a god?
When did you? Did you have this mutual agreement in person? What did your god smell like?


You threw that one in there like it's something we all consider a truth and it is absolutely totally NOT something that I have ever experienced, so where do you get off saying that it happened? You need to show your work on that one.

God cannot retract a binding contract and He can't bend the rules no matter how painful it is for Him.

So this contract (that I did not sign and neither did you) was written KNOWING how many children would be brutally abused by sex traffickers? And he wrote that contract anyway?

You seriously believe that?

It requires the attributes of God to maintain such laws to each and every written word without ever faltering.

Yeah, no. If I'm in a contract that includes the sexual abuse of children under the age of 10, I am totally moral to break that contract. There isn't a contract in any part of humanity that accepts a contract that requires death, torture and rape - except by your story of your god.

This part of Christian belief makes my jaw drop right to the floor. You wrap yourself up in this apologetic that requires you to condone someone writing murder and rape into a contract with you. I am always completely floored by this belief. It is so inhuman. So careless of life. So gleefully cruel. I hear it, and I am stunned. Every time.

* EDIT: And It requires the attributes of God to think of sending a Saviour when bound by the rules!

And then this, "look how great my god is, HE WROTE a contract that 'requires' him to make human sacrifice, isn't that beautiful?"
No. No it is fucking not.

A god could write to contract to say, "and in payment, I will save all your souls (after you suffer from child abouse for 30 years, first, but, whatevs,) and in return, you must include celery in every dessert you ever consume."

It's a god. it can make the contract say whatever it wants.


But instead, I watch these people glow with happiness over a human murder.
It's so freakin' weird to me.

Same as above.

Which only matters a fuck if Satan is more powerful than god.

The world we both experience is incompatible with your described skybeast.

Satan or the aptly named skybeast that falls from heaven etc.,

Why did your god create a Satan?
I never understood that. It feels like a giant plot hole.

can't stop or change the prophesy in revelation. These things have to happen accordingly to as it's written...to be a prophecy.

Why do we need prophesies again? What's wrong with a world that has no prophesy?

It's not pleasant and Christians are expected to suffer too.

Why? Why are you okay with a story that makes no sense? A god who can do anything, who you claim and believe can create DNA! isn't able to manage his project without massive safety violations every day?

That's so bizarre and weird and not-godlike. That's humanlike. It's uninspired. It's a dumb plot. It's like a terrible fantasy writer whose magic system is so tortured by chains that it's unreadable because he wanted a certain character to be the only one left standing at the end, and good writing couldn't make it happen.

Hey I'm a simple man and respond in simple ways.

That's no reason to accept stories that make no sense.

 

[Learner]

Hey folks looks like a bit to go through...

Except you're not IN a discusion with an imaginary person, and, still doesn't explain why an ALMIGHTY GOD cares what some people want.
My kid wanted to fly. I dod not sit idly and watch him climb up onto the roof for his 'running start.'

Are you okay with us attributing to you any characteristic of any Christian? Would that be accurate? Fred Phelps?

We ask YOU specific questions to find out what YOU believe (knowing full well that it's different from the next christian, that's why there's anything interesting at all in conversing with you), so you can do the same and talk to us like we're individual humans. Then you don't have to bring imaginary people into the conversation to support your point with fictional "evidence" about the people that are actually right in front of you.

Make up your minds. Do you want a theists perspective according to what a theist thinks is written in the bible or do you want a response "outside" the biblical theology, you know like " there's no such thing as God or other imaginaries because of gravity" or "science proves apes aren't fish blah bla blah?"

Slippping in and out between discussion-lines doesn't have that consistency theists often find, with those typical types of slippery atheist responses. We've moved on.

nice dodge. I asked a WHY and you give 'sometimes it be like that...'

Nice dodge? It-is-the-way-it-is (as it's written) means the explanation... is all in the bible? Thats a dodgy response.


Thats all Im' going to post for now (going to bed) I'll continue on a bit later if thats ok?

G'night.

 

[Rhea]

Make up your minds. Do you want a theists perspective according to what a theist thinks is written in the bible or do you want a response "outside" the biblical theology, you know like " there's no such thing as God or other imaginaries because of gravity" or "science proves apes aren't fish blah bla blah?"

You brought up “people” as an imaginary atheist who thought things that Keith did not say. See post 49.
That’s the imaginary people I am talking about.

Yes, I am interested in your perspective on what you think about your god. No, I am not interested in you inventing atheists to pin opinions onto.

 

[Learner]

You brought up “people” as an imaginary atheist who thought things that Keith did not say. See post 49.
That’s the imaginary people I am talking about.

Did you see post #44 as well? You contradict yourself. Kieth INCLUDED himself as one of those in "people" an acknowledgment when he responded in the quote below:

1) You can point, then, to where i have ever said i WANT a godless world?

Then all of a sudden ...there's imaginary people.

Yes, I am interested in your perspective on what you think about your god. No, I am not interested in you inventing atheists to pin opinions onto.

You're not interested in me inventing atheists...ok. Well if you can see the flawed "logic" of your "claim" ( not just the quote above) you are digressing from the discussion with a baseless assertion making a useless point.

Let's take for example: when you look on many other threads throughout, there are discussions that use broadly the description for groups, Christian, Religious, secular or atheists generally as broadly identifiying the asscociation to the subject matter in particular posts. What I'm getting at is, it is usual to be expected to assume this doesn't mean "every" single person in that particular group ... especially when it's understood there are varying points-of-views within a group!!

There was NO "inventiing atheists" IOWs.

Perhaps we've been lazy to be fair, ... it would be better to say "some people" or "to those people concerned" as Keith acknowledged himself as one, for example.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Did you see post #44 as well? You contradict yourself. Kieth INCLUDED himself as one of those in "people" an acknowledgment when he responded in the quote below:

no, Learner, i did NOT include myself among those people.
You suggested an atheist ideal, and dedire.
I challenged you to show evidence that i had those desires.
I was actually EXcluding myself.
But, i supsect you knew that, and just find a derail more useful than trying to answerfy.

 

[Learner]

But is that not the ideal world people wanted that you're living in now? A world without God? No Commandments to follow? Independence from God? This is not God's world anymore.

Nice dodge. Why did you choose to run from the question of your god deliberately causing 1100 deaths yesterday?

Clearly you are talking to the wrong person then. You need an individual who understands the same conceptual understanding as you do, who defends the above rhetoric.

I keep saying ... this is not Gods world.

Do you take the view by your post above, that you do not expect theists ... I mean some theists, to accept that there are occurances of natural events without there being any guiding hidden hands?

Also, for the record, we already live in a world without god, with no commandments to follow.
We're asking about your world, and your definition of your god.
And you're running away from answering about your faith.

One asks oneself, "now why would he choose to do that?"

Why would you make (another) assertion and contextual error. My world ... this physical plain .... is the same experience as yours. I think you mean in context to my belief of the world to come maybe, or Heaven?

 

[Learner]

It is a little unfair... not giving "credit" to satan. Always God did this, God did that, always taking the spotlight for every single thing, no wonder God is hated by the dark side.

Can't people sing for a change 'All things dark and dangerous .. the dark lord made them all?' Which does sound a lot more accurate BTW to the notion you have in your quote.

Satan has the power to create life?

I ask this quite sincerely. Are you saying that Satan can create people, animals, viruses? I was under the impression that Christians felt only their god had the power to create life.

Glad you asked. You can't really make much of a single line with few words. According to the scriptures, ONLY God can create life. However satan and cohorts... can only manipulate and alter what is already created, like humans can today.

 

[southernhybrid]

From the looks of things, that end day may not take millenia, to theists this seems to corroborate with the theology:

Mat 24 : 14 for example:

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

Learner, do you realize that just about every world religion has some type of prediction about the end of the world? How in the world can you believe that your particular religion is so special regarding the end times, when the end times have been predicted through out known civilization? If there is an end of the world, my prediction is that it will be human made, due to how we humans have destroyed the habitats of other animals, how we've destroyed the environment, damaged the air we breathe and the water we drink, and influenced radical climate change through our over consumption. But, I could certainly be wrong with my personal prophecy, but my prophecy makes more sense than the religious ones do.

https://www.history.com/topics/religion/religions-on-the-end-of-the-world

The planet’s major religions each have their own beliefs about the end of the world, the triumph of good over evil and Judgment Day. In Christianity, the Book of Revelation, the last chapter of the Bible’s New Testament, mentions Armageddon, the final battle on Earth between the forces of God and Satan. The word Armageddon is thought to come from the Hebrew for “mount of Megiddo.” Located in present-day Israel, Megiddo, an ancient, strategically positioned city, was the site of a number of battles. Some Christians interpret the Book of Revelation as a roadmap that lays out exactly how the world will end. They contend that Judgment Day will take place on Armageddon and Jesus will save the true believers, while non-believers left behind will face enormous suffering.

In Islam, the end of the world is referred to as the Hour and involves Jesus returning to Damascus to slay an anti-Christ who has put the planet in peril. With the anti-Christ out of the picture, a period of perfect harmony will ensue. Jesus will later die a natural death, which will usher in a time of destruction that leads directly to the Hour. In Judaism, there is no term for Armageddon, but there are references in the Hebrew bible to events that could be compared with Armageddon, including the Day of the Lord (in which God causes death and destruction to people who deserve to be punished) and the War of Gog and Magog (in which Israel and its god fight their enemies, rather than an anti-Christ).

In Hinduism, there is the story of the god Vishnu coming back in the last cycle of time as a figure called Kulki, who rides a white horse, carries a sword that looks like a comet and destroys the forces of evil. In some Buddhist prophecies, the equivalent of Armageddon is Shambhala, in which good triumphs over evil; however, the planet is restored rather than destroyed so people can pursue enlightenment.

Come to think of it, even my ex husband's religion, the Baha'i Faith, had some prophecy that was sort of like an end of the world prophecy and that faith wasn't founded until the mid 1800s. They believe that if there isn't a "lesser peace" by the year 2000, wars and all kinds of tribulations will happen. That may lead to the "most great peace", when everyone is happy and peace abounds. A nicer fairy tale that the Christian one, but still a fairy tale. ( I might be leaving some details out as I haven't studied that faith in over 40 years. )

It seems to be common among humans to believe that either we will all be destroyed or we will eventually reach some type of utopia on earth. Unfortunately, too many humans are more like the Christian god, hateful, prejudiced, angry and unfair and that's just for starters. I really don't understand how any thinking person can't see that gods were created by humans to be like humans. Humans with super powers that is. Perhaps it made a little bit of sense in ancient times when we didn't understand very much about the natural world. but with all that we now know about natural science these days, I simply can't understand how people are still sucked into these ancient myths and superstitions.

 

[Rhea]

It is a little unfair... not giving "credit" to satan. Always God did this, God did that, always taking the spotlight for every single thing, no wonder God is hated by the dark side.

Can't people sing for a change 'All things dark and dangerous .. the dark lord made them all?' Which does sound a lot more accurate BTW to the notion you have in your quote.

Satan has the power to create life?

I ask this quite sincerely. Are you saying that Satan can create people, animals, viruses? I was under the impression that Christians felt only their god had the power to create life.

Glad you asked. You can't really make much of a single line with few words. According to the scriptures, ONLY God can create life. However satan and cohorts... can only manipulate and alter what is already created, like humans can today.

Why did your god create your Satan, do you think?