The Pandemic And Religious Beliefs

[Learner]

Did you see post #44 as well? You contradict yourself. Kieth INCLUDED himself as one of those in "people" an acknowledgment when he responded in the quote below:

no, Learner, i did NOT include myself among those people.

Ok fair enough, my mistake.

1) You can point, then, to where i have ever said i WANT a godless world?

2) What difference would it make if i had this desire? How is it that my desire for meaningless suffering forces a tri-omni being to ignore suffering?
No Commandments to follow?
Again, where did i express this desire, AND how would that justify an infinitely benevolent being's inaction in the face of suffering?
Independence from God?

Although... It was a little difficult to tell.

You suggested an atheist ideal, and dedire.
I challenged you to show evidence that i had those desires.

As I tried to explain in a previous post. I used the term people in a broad sense, all those who fit the catagory who wouldn't want to live in a world with God. You steered the whole thing towards yourself and atheists it seem to me. I would include people of other religions, satan woshippers and similar cults to BTW.

You ask again even 3rd time to show you where you had those desires which sort of mislead me to think you acknowledged being one of the "people".

I was actually EXcluding myself.

I get you.

But, i supsect you knew that, and just find a derail more useful than trying to answerfy.

How really silly I must look! Knowing it and STILL I made the bold claim that you included yourself among the people post. What a plonker!

 

[Learner]

Besides if the fellow had a Sam Harris book ordered from amazon then it's likeley he's heard of William Lane Craig.

Washed overboard. Belonged to the atheistic skipper of a halibut trawler. Instantly struck a chord with Nanook III.

Oh well, they're easy to order and replace.

 

[Learner]

From the looks of things, that end day may not take millenia, to theists this seems to corroborate with the theology:

Mat 24 : 14 for example:

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

Learner, do you realize that just about every world religion has some type of prediction about the end of the world? How in the world can you believe that your particular religion is so special regarding the end times, when the end times have been predicted through out known civilization?

You could then... consider maybe that ALL the end-time believers are right, obviously each to their own unique idea as to how this is event is to come upon us. Some no doubt take the possibilty the same way as you do:


"If there is an end of the world, my prediction is that it will be human made If there is an end of the world, my prediction is that it will be human made, due to how we humans have destroyed the habitats of other animals, how we've destroyed the environment, damaged the air we breathe and the water we drink, and influenced radical climate change through our over consumption. But, I could certainly be wrong with my personal prophecy, but my prophecy makes more sense than the religious ones do".

The planet’s major religions each have their own beliefs about the end of the world, the triumph of good over evil and Judgment Day. In Christianity, the Book of Revelation, the last chapter of the Bible’s New Testament, mentions Armageddon, the final battle on Earth between the forces of God and Satan. The word Armageddon is thought to come from the Hebrew for “mount of Megiddo.” Located in present-day Israel, Megiddo, an ancient, strategically positioned city, was the site of a number of battles. Some Christians interpret the Book of Revelation as a roadmap that lays out exactly how the world will end. They contend that Judgment Day will take place on Armageddon and Jesus will save the true believers, while non-believers left behind will face enormous suffering.

The thing I'll say here is that, during thoose hard times, the tribulation period .... a lot of non-believers WILL believe before Jesus arrives and a lot of people won't.

In Islam, the end of the world is referred to as the Hour and involves Jesus returning to Damascus to slay an anti-Christ who has put the planet in peril. With the anti-Christ out of the picture, a period of perfect harmony will ensue. Jesus will later die a natural death, which will usher in a time of destruction that leads directly to the Hour. In Judaism, there is no term for Armageddon, but there are references in the Hebrew bible to events that could be compared with Armageddon, including the Day of the Lord (in which God causes death and destruction to people who deserve to be punished) and the War of Gog and Magog (in which Israel and its god fight their enemies, rather than an anti-Christ).

In Hinduism, there is the story of the god Vishnu coming back in the last cycle of time as a figure called Kulki, who rides a white horse, carries a sword that looks like a comet and destroys the forces of evil. In some Buddhist prophecies, the equivalent of Armageddon is Shambhala, in which good triumphs over evil; however, the planet is restored rather than destroyed so people can pursue enlightenment.


Come to think of it, even my ex husband's religion, the Baha'i Faith, had some prophecy that was sort of like an end of the world prophecy and that faith wasn't founded until the mid 1800s. They believe that if there isn't a "lesser peace" by the year 2000, wars and all kinds of tribulations will happen. That may lead to the "most great peace", when everyone is happy and peace abounds. A nicer fairy tale that the Christian one, but still a fairy tale. ( I might be leaving some details out as I haven't studied that faith in over 40 years. )

There are similarities with a lot of religions with the similar END concept, like I mention above, they seem to ALL agree that this particuler event is ahead.

There have been a lot of studies, findings and better interpretations within the last 40 years.

How in the world can you believe that your particular religion is so special regarding the end times...?

Each of the religions or man-made end-timers will probably ask the same question, who may have the opinion, that the other religions or beliefs may be nothing more than just fairy tales and their own is special.

It seems to be common among humans to believe that either we will all be destroyed or we will eventually reach some type of utopia on earth. Unfortunately, too many humans are more like the Christian god, hateful, prejudiced, angry and unfair and that's just for starters. I really don't understand how any thinking person can't see that gods were created by humans to be like humans. Humans with super powers that is. Perhaps it made a little bit of sense in ancient times when we didn't understand very much about the natural world. but with all that we now know about natural science these days, I simply can't understand how people are still sucked into these ancient myths and superstitions.

I think many are still stuck with the middle-ages beliefs confusing the interpretation of the biblical God and the story makes a good debate i.e. "Ye-olde-age V science", in a manner of speaking.

 

[Rhea]

The thing I'll say here is that, during thoose hard times, the tribulation period .... a lot of non-believers WILL believe before Jesus arrives and a lot of people won't.
.

I find this such an interesting utterance.


"I believe in prophesies and here's what I prophesy will happen when the prophesy happens!"

It's all so foreign to me that it is amazing to behold. You read it in a book that the future is known, And you believe this book. So completely. About a dream that a guy had.


I sort of watch with my mouth half open... really? You really believe that stuff?
It's fascinating. Because it is so very unconvincing to me, and yet I can watch you there, utterly convinced by it. One book.

And the whole requirement that you ALSO believe in the men who decided what should be in the book, and what, written at the same time, should not. You rely on those men to get your belief cemented.

It's partly that the reliance on the book is so darned specific. That's interesting, too. It's incredibly specific - the judgment day!. But there's only the one book. The god spoke but once - and then never again. (some people believe the gods speak through bones, or leaves, but the book believers usually like to kill them, historically speaking.)


You really believe that "tribulation" prophesy stuff? word for word?

 

[Learner]

I find this such an interesting utterance.


"I believe in prophesies and here's what I prophesy will happen when the prophesy happens!"

It's all so foreign to me that it is amazing to behold. You read it in a book that the future is known, And you believe this book. So completely. About a dream that a guy had.

I sort of watch with my mouth half open... really? You really believe that stuff?
It's fascinating. Because it is so very unconvincing to me, and yet I can watch you there, utterly convinced by it. One book.

And the whole requirement that you ALSO believe in the men who decided what should be in the book, and what, written at the same time, should not. You rely on those men to get your belief cemented.

I thought not to disimilar to you, but I became a believer by a variety of things. For example..Truth and telling the truth, so highly emphasised: witnessing and testimony, the threat of Hell - the understanding doing otherwise to truth affecting early Christians who once were afraid and then not fearing death suffered gladly to their demise. But hey... your opinion is acknowledged.

It's partly that the reliance on the book is so darned specific. That's interesting, too. It's incredibly specific - the judgment day!. But there's only the one book. The god spoke but once - and then never again. (some people believe the gods speak through bones, or leaves, but the book believers usually like to kill them, historically speaking.)

That's why Jesus is the key and way that sorts out/ chases away the strange spirits and stuff etc. There is no killing in the name of Jesus in the bible. Anyone claims this is to be avoided or apprehended.

Although which may sound contradicting but there is some thought by some thiests interestingly find there in scripture that...to defend ones self and family is forgivable and acceptable in a particular circumstance involving killing ... I think related to revelation, I vaguely recall. Could be the bit about the Saints warring/fighting the beast etc... Intriguing to look more into the explanation in that area, they're coming up with.

You really believe that "tribulation" prophesy stuff? word for word?

There are convincing variations (to theists of course) but is trivial to the prophecy on the whole...so absolutely yes.

 

[abaddon]

There are similarities with a lot of religions with the similar END concept, like I mention above, they seem to ALL agree that this particuler event is ahead.

The various cultures tell different stories about the whole entirety of existence in order to give their culture a sense of mission (of "meaning"). It's what cultures do, provide "memes" in order to preserve themselves.

All stories have a beginning middle and end. Cosmic stories have a beginning of time, a middle where you get a role inside all of time, and end of time.

So, Learner notices that stories all have an end that wraps everything up. And instead of realizing it's just the innate structure of stories, he wants it to seem to support his preferred story. Lots of cultures have stories of an end-time = my story of an end-time is corroborated as true.

Again and again, no reference to how nature is; the ancient mysteries (old "sacred" texts) take precedence over that. As if everything's stories.

There have been a lot of studies, findings and better interpretations within the last 40 years.

You don't mention studies of how things are in nature. And if you did it'd just be a defensive move to support the "sacred" text against everything outside it. Always story, nothing else, as if everything is stories. Anything anyone else says gets breezily dismissed as only another story. Evidence in nature that goes against the story is because of the story's Devil doing things to fool people. Evidence in nature that might seem to support the story (like apparent design) is God's little signs.

Notice any bias in how everything must always work in support of the story?

 

[Rhea]

I thought not to disimilar to you, but I became a believer by a variety of things. For example..Truth and telling the truth, so highly emphasised: witnessing and testimony, the threat of Hell - the understanding doing otherwise to truth affecting early Christians who once were afraid and then not fearing death suffered gladly to their demise.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that you find their fervor convincing? So even though they’ve never seen the afterlife (they aren’t dead yet while telling the tale,) the fact that they are fervent about it proves something about that which they have never seen?

That’s an interesting kind of measure. Do you use that in other places in your life? Can I convince you to buy my bridge because you love my fervor for the bridge? Or, when someone is no longer afraid of poisonous snakes, do you become certain that surviving poisonous snakes is guaranteed to you?


I find your certainty fascinating, and it is very dissimilar to me. I can’t think of anything where someone says, “this makes me feel so good!” So I think, “then it must be true!”

That's why Jesus is the key and way that sorts out/ chases away the strange spirits and stuff etc. There is no killing in the name of Jesus in the bible. Anyone claims this is to be avoided or apprehended.

And yet, all these Christians felt it so fervently! They witnessed it! So highly emphasized!. Don’t you believe their witness? What changed?

You really believe that "tribulation" prophesy stuff? word for word?

There are convincing variations (to theists of course) but is trivial to the prophecy on the whole...so absolutely yes.

Hunh. Like whores and horses and gnashing of lightning and stuff? Word for word?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Eric Hoffer, in The True Believer, pointed out the tonic chord in mass movements, orthodoxy, fanaticism, whatever you want to call it. Being witnessed to by Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS door knockers, Krishnas, born agains, etc., brings out the common pitch of emotionalism and unswerving adherence to a faith story that proves itself internally. People will believe anything.

 

[southernhybrid]

I started to post a reply earlier today but it got lost. So, I'll try again. Learner, you have had an emotional experience that makes you feel good. I sort of understand that because I was raised by Christian converts, who were probably a bit like you. They heard "the message" and for some strange reason, it made them feel good and special. It gave them a purpose and a sense that they were immortal. First it was my mother who was "saved", and after preaching relentlessly to my father, he joined in.

I did my best to believe these things when I was a child, but it always bothered me that this god seemed very unfair to me. Why would any god punish people for the simple act of not believing? Why would this god not judge his so called creation by their actions, their works, their good character. That is, assuming this god even needed to judge the people he created at all.

I vaguely accepted what I had been taught. I did the asking Jesus to be my personal savior thing. I prayed. I told my young Catholic friends that my beliefs were the only true ones. They told me that their beliefs were the only true ones. I'm talking about children in elementary school debating religion. Luckily, we did talk about other things, and we did play and have friendships with each other.

As I've said before, I gave up my Christian beliefs totally while attending a fundamentalist Christian college. It became obvious to me that the things I had been taught made no sense. It became obvious to me that these Christians were no better and no different from anyone else, other than the fact that they held onto ancient myths as truth.

That was the beginning of a seven year journey that ended in my acceptance that there were no gods. I studied other religions, but in the end, I discovered that they all had a lot in common but none of them were based on fact. I accepted that we humans were alone in the universe. All we had was each other and the animals that share the planet with us. This made sense, but it was also a wonderful emotional experience to finally see the light at the end of the dark tunnel of religion. I know I can't change you, so I would never try.

I have no idea why some people are able to believe things that are magical, wishful thinking or whatever you want to call them. But, I am not capable of believing anything without substantial evidence. Writings in an ancient book that was written long before we even had the scientific method isn't something that I can believe as true. There may be some good stories, some moral lessons etc. but as to why and how these stories and allegories are taken as truth is beyond my comprehension.

If there was a god and she wanted her people to know her, I don't think she'd hide and tell us to believe on faith. So, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of religion is about forming a community, creating some moral guidelines, believing some myths that make one think they are immortal.. Since our minds are dependent on the working of our brains, it makes no sense to me at all. When we die, all of the things that allow us to think, to feel emotions, etc. die with us. I like to think that we are recycled. I mean our bodies decompose and we go beck to the elements. Living a life as a good person who cares for others is its own reward. When it ends, that's it. Nothing to fear or worry about any longer. Death is often the end of pain and
suffering. It's nothing to fear.

 

[Learner]

The various cultures tell different stories about the whole entirety of existence in order to give their culture a sense of mission (of "meaning"). It's what cultures do, provide "memes" in order to preserve themselves.

This does happen but does this mean, every culture is knowingly preserving the belief, purely for the sense of meaning, whilst willingly deceiving themselves, if the belief is untrue to them? Not forgetting there is delusional belief in some people (yes I know you include Christians). Should be easy to make the detailed case for it then...putting the whole thing to bed.

All stories have a beginning middle and end. Cosmic stories have a beginning of time, a middle where you get a role inside all of time, and end of time.

So, Learner notices that stories all have an end that wraps everything up. And instead of realizing it's just the innate structure of stories, he wants it to seem to support his preferred story. Lots of cultures have stories of an end-time = my story of an end-time is corroborated as true.

When you put it like that. Some cosmic stories don't ALL have end-of-the-world themes. Some ideal cultures/civilizations are dreamed of, as advancing into future heavenly Utopias, or like the sci-fi like stories, treking other planets beyond the stars, a belief of things to come, almost like having some prophetic glance of the future . Unless ...you take to the extinction rebellion route proposition - science prove there could be man-made world-ending disaster for the future. Greta would bet ya.

Again and again, no reference to how nature is; the ancient mysteries (old "sacred" texts) take precedence over that. As if everything's stories.

Again and again since when my friend? So far we have been discussing mostly about the text and with our individual POV's to the meaning.

You don't mention studies of how things are in nature. And if you did it'd just be a defensive move to support the "sacred" text against everything outside it. Always story, nothing else, as if everything is stories. Anything anyone else says gets breezily dismissed as only another story. Evidence in nature that goes against the story is because of the story's Devil doing things to fool people. Evidence in nature that might seem to support the story (like apparent design) is God's little signs.

Everything IS stories.Some are known as true stories. Historic corroboration with names, natural archeological artifacts/findings and natural geographical places.

Notice any bias in how everything must always work in support of the story?

Well yes, there could be some of that, but you are fixed in opinion that in order to support a story, you need to be dishonest. That's erroneously false!

 

[Learner]

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that you find their fervor convincing? So even though they’ve never seen the afterlife (they aren’t dead yet while telling the tale,) the fact that they are fervent about it proves something about that which they have never seen?

Psycological factors is one e.g. when the desciples were afraid and dissasociated themselves from Jesus when being put to death. AFTER his ressurection and seeing for themselves (Thomas was skeptical when he missed out seeing Jesus the first time) they were no longer afraid and they were martyred and the Christians after that.

That’s an interesting kind of measure. Do you use that in other places in your life? Can I convince you to buy my bridge because you love my fervor for the bridge? Or, when someone is no longer afraid of poisonous snakes, do you become certain that surviving poisonous snakes is guaranteed to you?

I find your certainty fascinating, and it is very dissimilar to me. I can’t think of anything where someone says, “this makes me feel so good!” So I think, “then it must be true!”

And yet, all these Christians felt it so fervently! They witnessed it! So highly emphasized!. Don’t you believe their witness? What changed?

Why do you keep asserting I became a believer because of "feel good" emotions. It was the REALIZATION from what was to me, a logical viewpoint, the bible was true. The "feel good" came AFTER. It's that simple.

Hunh. Like whores and horses and gnashing of lightning and stuff? Word for word?

Variations I was talking about were for example, the variations of belief with tribulations consisting of pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib etc.. Doesn't affect the Gospel or belief to the Second Coming etc.. Those are forgivable and doesn't alter the course.

 

[Tigers!]

How do you think this pandemic will affect religious beliefs in first world nations?

In much the same way that some person's belief in the efficacy of medicine and science will be affected. That is not very much.

 

[bigfield]

Let's just have a poll:

Who made SARS-CoV-2?
a) Jesus
b) The Devil
c) The Chinese Government
d) All of the above. God's mysterious ways and all that.

 

[Learner]

That's an idea, despite it being on a secular forum.

 

[Rhea]

You don't mention studies of how things are in nature. And if you did it'd just be a defensive move to support the "sacred" text against everything outside it. Always story, nothing else, as if everything is stories. Anything anyone else says gets breezily dismissed as only another story. Evidence in nature that goes against the story is because of the story's Devil doing things to fool people. Evidence in nature that might seem to support the story (like apparent design) is God's little signs.

Everything IS stories.Some are known as true stories. Historic corroboration with names, natural archeological artifacts/findings and natural geographical places.

This sounds like the, "there is a Loch Ness, therefore there is a Loch Ness Monster" defense.

 

[Rhea]

I thought not to disimilar to you, but I became a believer by a variety of things. For example..Truth and telling the truth, so highly emphasised: witnessing and testimony, the threat of Hell - the understanding doing otherwise to truth affecting early Christians who once were afraid and then not fearing death suffered gladly to their demise. But hey... your opinion is acknowledged.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that you find their fervor convincing? So even though they’ve never seen the afterlife (they aren’t dead yet while telling the tale,) the fact that they are fervent about it proves something about that which they have never seen?

That’s an interesting kind of measure. Do you use that in other places in your life? Can I convince you to buy my bridge because you love my fervor for the bridge? Or, when someone is no longer afraid of poisonous snakes, do you become certain that surviving poisonous snakes is guaranteed to you?

I find your certainty fascinating, and it is very dissimilar to me. I can’t think of anything where someone says, “this makes me feel so good!” So I think, “then it must be true!”

Why do you keep asserting I became a believer because of "feel good" emotions. It was the REALIZATION from what was to me, a logical viewpoint, the bible was true. The "feel good" came AFTER. It's that simple.

I don't "keep" doing anything. I said it once in direct response to your post saying why you came to believe. Indeed, I posed it as a question for clarification with several analogies for you to see why I was asking. I've quoted it above. You appeared to wax eloquent on how convincing other people's fervor was for you. You underlined it. Their "highly emphasized" faith made you feel faithful.

It must be about how it makes you feel because it certainly contains no objective evidence. And I assumed it made you feel good because you wanted that in your own life, and you adopted it.

Perhaps I'm wrong in understand what you said?
You see their fervor, it makes you feel bleh, and so you join the faith? Is that more accurate, then?

You are confusing.

 

[rousseau]

I can't think of many examples of world events that have fundamentally changed peoples worldviews on any subject, politics, religion, or otherwise. The preconditions for people changing their mind are largely an openness to actually changing their mind. That's something which exists internally, not externally.

Usually world events are instead filtered through people's pre-existing biases, and used to confirm what they already believe.

 

[abaddon]

Well yes, there could be some of that, but you are fixed in opinion that in order to support a story, you need to be dishonest. That's erroneously false!

That's not my opinion. The gist of everything I've said is simply that a story shouldn't be so self-referential or circular like the "Bible says so" type justifications.

There are better, truer stories than the Bible's tales. For an example: southernhybrid told a better, truer story than any ancient culture's end-times tale, when she predicted that the human-caused devastation of the biosphere will cost many lives. She borrowed religious language ("end of the world", "prophesy"), but it's clearly a prediction based in observation of what's visibly happening in the world. So it's a truer story than any you've told.

Her references aren't only to testimony. We can all see the environmental devastation if we'll look. Where it'll all go isn't known for sure, that's why her prediction can be called a "story". But there are enough demonstrable facts in it that it's a truer story than a bible-style Armageddon -- a tale based in testimony instead of observation of the conspicuous phenomena ("nature") that we all have access to.

-----------------

"Magic, religion, and all forms of reality distortion are simply species-specific responses unique to the human animal,” he [the anthropologist John F. Schumaker] argued, an adaptive technique making us feel more secure and protected. Any “amplified state of consciousness” helped humans deal with the not very appealing idea that life is “chaos followed by oblivion.” ... Creating illusion and escaping reality provide self-worth, meaningfulness, and power, functioning as a kind of “counter-intelligence.

From here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psychology-yesterday/201306/why-people-believe-weird-things

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why do you keep asserting I became a believer because of "feel good" emotions. It was the REALIZATION from what was to me, a logical viewpoint, the bible was true. The "feel good" came AFTER. It's that simple.

It's about being addicted to belief in woo vs being addicted to making rational observations. The two are mutually exclusive in their application and their operation but both can make us feel good.

Pretending about all the wonderful things I can do with my billions of dollars makes me feel darn good even though I know I don't have billions of dollars. That's how religion works except that people don't know their religious beliefs are as pretend as my billions of dollars.

 

[Learner]

You don't mention studies of how things are in nature. And if you did it'd just be a defensive move to support the "sacred" text against everything outside it. Always story, nothing else, as if everything is stories. Anything anyone else says gets breezily dismissed as only another story. Evidence in nature that goes against the story is because of the story's Devil doing things to fool people. Evidence in nature that might seem to support the story (like apparent design) is God's little signs.

Everything IS stories.Some are known as true stories. Historic corroboration with names, natural archeological artifacts/findings and natural geographical places.

This sounds like the, "there is a Loch Ness, therefore there is a Loch Ness Monster" defense.

All we need now is some equivalent to the consistent bible for Bart Erhman & Co. to acknowledge it's past existence.