The Pandemic And Religious Beliefs

[Learner]

Why do you keep asserting I became a believer because of "feel good" emotions. It was the REALIZATION from what was to me, a logical viewpoint, the bible was true. The "feel good" came AFTER. It's that simple.

I don't "keep" doing anything. I said it once in direct response to your post saying why you came to believe. Indeed, I posed it as a question for clarification with several analogies for you to see why I was asking. I've quoted it above. You appeared to wax eloquent on how convincing other people's fervor was for you. You underlined it. Their "highly emphasized" faith made you feel faithful.

It must be about how it makes you feel because it certainly contains no objective evidence. And I assumed it made you feel good because you wanted that in your own life, and you adopted it.

Perhaps I'm wrong in understand what you said?
You see their fervor, it makes you feel bleh, and so you join the faith? Is that more accurate, then?

You are confusing.

I used to say lots of things about the bible regretfully... death and violence and God was no different than satan etc. I used some arguments borrowing from others (atheists) repeating rhetoric phrases out of context, knowing believers couldn't respond back. Cutting a long story short. I found out some of arguments were flawed imo and sometimes dishonest. This caused me to look at the bible again and understand it a little more plus listening to others on their research, a whole great variety of things including secular.

I just became a Christian as I said, when it all dawned on me this was all true.

 

[Learner]

I started to post a reply earlier today but it got lost.

Hey Southern, will have to get back to you as you have a long post. Losing post, I know what you mean. Enlarging the screen scrolling about trying to find where I am, editing wrong bits of text. I've misplaced my glasses.

 

[Rhea]

I just became a Christian as I said, when it all dawned on me this was all true.

Fair enough. I hear you say that having it “dawn on you that it was all true” was a turning point.
I find that plumb flummoxing. I really really do. You say that you believe in the literal truth of the bible story of revelation. That you believe it is literally true all of the things that this old book reports about a guy’s dream.

I try, but I just cannot fathom how it could “dawn on” anyone that “that is all true.” Truth doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work through dreams and visions, it doesn’t work through hearsay and it doesn’t work through books that also are the sole claim there was a massive earthquake, a solar eclipse and zombies coming out of their graves all on one day and no one else noticed.

So I confess that I hear your claim that it “dawned on you that this was all true,” with a sort of knit brow over wild eyes and a slack jaw. You really believe all that stuff? Every detail of it? Wow. Very foreign to me. I cannot imagine it.

 

[southernhybrid]

I started to post a reply earlier today but it got lost.

Hey Southern, will have to get back to you as you have a long post. Losing post, I know what you mean. Enlarging the screen scrolling about trying to find where I am, editing wrong bits of text. I've misplaced my glasses.

No problem. It's fine if you have time to reply, but I won't hold it against you, if you don't.

 

[Learner]

Still haven't found glasses. Cheers for that fair POV post.

 

[atrib]

I suppose God is making use of the lockdown of churches reaching further online ... (speeding up the process) to those nations not reached yet who are willing to hear.

So, an omnibenevolent deity is USING DEATH to achieve his benign goals, this is your thesis.

Do you not see that this is NOT solving the dilemma?
I mean, really, it doesn't fucking matter if the end is near. Or tomorrow. Or in ten minutes.
Where was God when 1100 people died yesterday?

But is that not the ideal world people wanted that you're living in now? A world without God? No Commandments to follow? Independence from God? This is not God's world anymore.

When has your god ever shown up? When was this planet God's planet? When has this world ever been an ideal place free from disease, misery and death? When did God ever show up to teach his children to love one another and be good people? When? Show us the evidence. No more unsupported, fucked-up assertions; demonstrate using facts and reason that this god creature exists and rules this planet, and that it's behavior can be rationalized as good (if it does exist and your favorite story is indeed true). Go on, produce this god if you can! And explain how pain, misery and death makes any sense in the context of the existence of an omnipotent loving god!

You can't do these things because your god doesn't exist. And you very likely understand this on some level, which is why you come up with brain-fucked, dishonest apologetics. Because religion is a disease that turns sane, rational people into mindless, unfeeling drones intent only on spreading the disease. For fuck's sake, if you believe that God gave you a brain, wouldn't it follow that God wants you to use this brain once in a while? What are you so frightened of: discovering the truth? Does the thought of thinking rationally about your god make you shit your pants?

It's not independence from imaginary gods that atheists seek, it is independence from your slave mentality that atheists want to eradicate. But if you want to spend the rest of your life a slave to these ancient superstitions, then there is very little anyone can say or do to make you a free man.

 

[atrib]

Are you saying that it's okay if I beat my wife for years and years, as long as when it stops it's because I stopped it?

That seems rather.... monstrous. Are you sure that's your definition of benevolence?

Things would have been so much better if one 'loved his neighbour and treated them like he would like to be treated himself'.

Things would have been so much better if God had not cursed all of humanity to a life of misery, disease and death for a transgression committed by an ancestor before any of us had been born. You claim that this world is God's creation and want to praise it all day long, but you are unwilling to hold this creature responsible for the senseless misery it inflicts upon us. This is so fucked up.

 

[Learner]

When has your god ever shown up? When was this planet God's planet? When has this world ever been an ideal place free from disease, misery and death? When did God ever show up to teach his children to love one another and be good people? When? Show us the evidence.

What claim do you think I made? Best read the bible so you can get the gist of the theology (the belief as it's written)i.e. NO claim God will pop out willy-nilly just like that. That's a different belief system.

No more unsupported, fucked-up assertions; demonstrate using facts and reason that this god creature exists and rules this planet, and that it's behavior can be rationalized as good (if it does exist and your favorite story is indeed true). Go on, produce this god if you can! And explain how pain, misery and death makes any sense in the context of the existence of an omnipotent loving god!

You assert largely there's no explaination, when it's ALL DESCRIBED and written in bible. Produce God willy-nilly...was never the claim theists could do...and it doesn't say in the bible that theists do that.

You can't do these things because your god doesn't exist. And you very likely understand this on some level, which is why you come up with brain-fucked, dishonest apologetics. Because religion is a disease that turns sane, rational people into mindless, unfeeling drones intent only on spreading the disease. For fuck's sake, if you believe that God gave you a brain, wouldn't it follow that God wants you to use this brain once in a while?

Not like abracadabra no. Your emotions expose you...where IS the dishonesty? will you point it out...is the question? I suppose "Delusional" could be more fitting. Besides you sort of contradict yourself: If God gave me a brain-I'd would be saying the same thing as I would now!

What are you so frightened of: discovering the truth? Does the thought of thinking rationally about your god make you shit your pants?

Odd question. Frightening of discovering the truth, and having the fear of God.

It's not independence from imaginary gods that atheists seek, it is independence from your slave mentality that atheists want to eradicate. But if you want to spend the rest of your life a slave to these ancient superstitions, then there is very little anyone can say or do to make you a free man.

Independence from slave mentality in the modern political secular world? You'll still have the slave mentality without the religious. Reminds me of a Chinese proverb or a Chinese something or other.

 

[Learner]

Things would have been so much better if God had not cursed all of humanity to a life of misery, disease and death for a transgression committed by an ancestor before any of us had been born. You claim that this world is God's creation and want to praise it all day long, but you are unwilling to hold this creature responsible for the senseless misery it inflicts upon us. This is so fucked up.

I accept an admit that if God didn't create this world there'd be no evil or suffering. Sounds as if you want me to say God created evil, phrasing it as if creating a seperate entity or deadly weapon for purpose...from my own mouth. A little like the ancient accuser, who would want that too (theistically speaking).

 

[Rhea]

What claim do you think I made? Best read the bible so you can get the gist of the theology (the belief as it's written)i.e. NO claim God will pop out willy-nilly just like that. That's a different belief system.


You assert largely there's no explaination, when it's ALL DESCRIBED and written in bible. Produce God willy-nilly...was never the claim theists could do...and it doesn't say in the bible that theists do that.

You can't do these things because your god doesn't exist. And you very likely understand this on some level, which is why you come up with brain-fucked, dishonest apologetics. Because religion is a disease that turns sane, rational people into mindless, unfeeling drones intent only on spreading the disease. For fuck's sake, if you believe that God gave you a brain, wouldn't it follow that God wants you to use this brain once in a while?

Not like abracadabra no. Your emotions expose you...where IS the dishonesty? will you point it out...is the question? I suppose "Delusional" could be more fitting. Besides you sort of contradict yourself: If God gave me a brain-I'd would be saying the same thing as I would now!

What are you so frightened of: discovering the truth? Does the thought of thinking rationally about your god make you shit your pants?

Odd question. Frightening of discovering the truth, and having the fear of God.

It's not independence from imaginary gods that atheists seek, it is independence from your slave mentality that atheists want to eradicate. But if you want to spend the rest of your life a slave to these ancient superstitions, then there is very little anyone can say or do to make you a free man.

Independence from slave mentality in the modern political secular world? You'll still have the slave mentality without the religious. Reminds me of a Chinese proverb or a Chinese something or other.

Interestingly, you did not answer a single one of Atrib’s questions.

Why?

His simple question - what proof do you present for the truth of the story in the bible?
Is answered by you as - It’s written in the bible.


Why? That doesn’t make any sense. At all.


I try to picture your face as you write what you just wrote, try to imagine whether you are trying to snow us and are laughing, or whether you ACTUALLY believe that when the question is
Q: How do you prove that the bible is true?
You think it is reasonable to answer
A: Because it’s written down.


I can’t picture what emotion a person shows on their face while providing such a non-answer.

 

[Rhea]

I accept an admit that if God didn't create this world there'd be no evil or suffering.

That’s weird. Why wouldn’t there be?
Ooooooh! Do you mean that if this world was not created by your god then there would be no world? Because you cannot imagine any other source for this world than your own personal story?

That seems rather limited in imagination.

Although, answer me this. In your mythology, did the angels exist before this world? Did heaven exist before this world?
I was always taught that both did. Which made me wonder why, if heaven existed, did the story require the creation of earth?

Sounds as if you want me to say God created evil, phrasing it as if creating a seperate entity or deadly weapon for purpose.

Who created Satan, in your mythology? If not your God, who did?

 

[Learner]

Interestingly, you did not answer a single one of Atrib’s questions.

Why?

His simple question - what proof do you present for the truth of the story in the bible?
Is answered by you as - It’s written in the bible.


Why? That doesn’t make any sense. At all.



I try to picture your face as you write what you just wrote, try to imagine whether you are trying to snow us and are laughing, or whether you ACTUALLY believe that when the question is
Q: How do you prove that the bible is true?
You think it is reasonable to answer
A: Because it’s written down.


I can’t picture what emotion a person shows on their face while providing such a non-answer.

Thats funny, but concerning at the same time... these lockdowns seem to have affected your memories. Hint in bold : when previously asked by both of you (Atrib asked me why on another thread) I said it was by a number of things, which includes things in the natural world....outside the bible. Fair enough, I think you said.

(We) did this done that.

Discuss further if you must.

 

[Rhea]

Thats funny, but concerning at the same time... these lockdowns seem to have affected your memories.

No. Was this comment necessary?

Hint in bold : when previously asked by both of you (Atrib asked me why on another thread) I said it was by a number of things, which includes things in the natural world....outside the bible.

“A number of things” doesn’t explain much. All you really outlined was their fervent say so, which was written down for me to read which is not terribly enlightening.

Fair enough, I think you said.

Indeed. “Fair enough, I believe that you believe that, so that’s what we’ll discuss.” Is what that meant.

(We) did this done that.

All we really got out of you from both is that you believe books, and you specially love fervent books of people’s fervent stories.

Discuss further if you must.

It remains completely out of my realm of understanding why the book is convincing to you, or the people’s stories are convincing to you. And I continue to wonder whether you use that same standard for other decisions in your life.

If you care to continue discussing your reasons in order to illuminate me, I am interested, because it is so incredibly fantastical that a person could run their life that way.

So if you think “we done that” because you said, “because someone wrote it down,” and you have nothing more to add and that really is all it takes to convince you of something, then yes, I suppose we done that.

But it’s like that fly with a leg growing out of its face instead of an antenna, to me.
Well, no, even less understandable than that. I know how that works.

 

[Learner]

Consdier that comment part retracted, got a bit of work to sort out before deadline, a little ratty at the mo.

 

[abaddon]

by a number of things, which includes things in the natural world....outside the bible.

Also, pointing at something in nature and saying "that's because of characters here in this book" is still nothing but a statement of faith in the book.

 

[ideologyhunter]

BTW, don't know if anyone posted this earlier, but Jim Bakker, that Christian hero from the wonderful 80s, is back in the news, having hawked a corona cure called Silver Sol Solution on his website. Missouri is suing him. I grieve for the fact that Tammy's not around to sob and gush eyeliner all over the place. Jim is now all but unrecognizable, with a full Santa beard in blazing white.

 

[Learner]

I accept an admit that if God didn't create this world there'd be no evil or suffering.

That’s weird. Why wouldn’t there be?
Ooooooh! Do you mean that if this world was not created by your god then there would be no world? Because you cannot imagine any other source for this world than your own personal story?

That seems rather limited in imagination.

Because evil is a by-product. You know... standing in the sun light you create dark shadows... Not doing good you create naughtyness.

Although, answer me this. In your mythology, did the angels exist before this world? Did heaven exist before this world?
I was always taught that both did. Which made me wonder why, if heaven existed, did the story require the creation of earth?

Sounds as if you want me to say God created evil, phrasing it as if creating a seperate entity or deadly weapon for purpose.

Who created Satan, in your mythology? If not your God, who did?

Why ? I dunno for sure but as you can see in Genesis, it doesn't seem to be a planned idea for the making but rather an instant thought of creativeness e.g. "let there be light ....and God saw that it was good..."

"Let us" ... suggests God was not alone.


Don't agree with you that this is a mythology of course but I believe you know who created satan.

 

[southernhybrid]

I am confused by your last post. Are you claiming that only Christians are good? You said that evil is a by product of nastiness, but there are plenty of Christians who are very nasty and plenty of atheists and those of other religions who have excellent characters and thrive on doing good works. Why do you think that is?

I tend to agree with the late Isaac Asimov, who said the following:

If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.

I really have never understood why some sects of Christianity follow the simplistic concept that all they have to do is believe and some how they will be saved from eternal suffering. That has never made any sense to me. If there was a real god, wouldn't she be more concerned with how people treat each other, and what positive things they do to make the world a better place in their own small way? That should be the only thing that matters. Why choose a religion that is so divisive?

Of course, if there was a god, it would be female, since we usually refer to nature as Mother Nature, and female is the one who literally brings forth life. That's another problem I find with literal versions of Christianity. It's extremely sexist, but I digress. Sorry about that. We were supposed to be discussing the impact of the pandemic on religious beliefs, but somehow we always stray into other areas.

 

[Learner]

Just the top line...


Why are you confused (not just you it seems)? Who said only Christians were good? Even Jesus says many will come in His name. He will also say "I never knew you" when they are professing to do good. Many Samaritans in the world, Christians know this or should do.

 

[Rhea]

Because evil is a by-product. You know... standing in the sun light you create dark shadows... Not doing good you create naughtyness.

No, I don't know.
That is not a known.
When I make a clay pot, I do not as a byproduct create a gun.

Evil is not a byproduct of anything. You will have to "show your work" on how you decided that.
When I created a baby, I did not also create a Satan. There is not some OTHER baby in the world who is evil just because I created one who is not.

When I make dinner, I do not accidentally create a bowl of poison on the table.

And a shadow, I might add, is a BEAUTIFUL thing - my mother spent her entire career studying them and rendering them in watercolor, silk screen, batik and oils. This is a true story - her entire artistic milieu was about the study and beauty and depiction of shadows. (She is a lifelong Catholic, btw).


So, no I don't "know" any such thing. You will have to come up with a complete ground-up argument for why this ridiculous statement feels real to you.
Evil is not a byproduct of anything. It is only ever an excuse for why the god-myths don't actually work.


And also (to bring things back to target) for religionists to make excuses for their creator in times of pandemic.

Although, answer me this. In your mythology, did the angels exist before this world? Did heaven exist before this world?
I was always taught that both did. Which made me wonder why, if heaven existed, did the story require the creation of earth?

Sounds as if you want me to say God created evil, phrasing it as if creating a seperate entity or deadly weapon for purpose.

Who created Satan, in your mythology? If not your God, who did?

Why ? I dunno for sure but as you can see in Genesis, it doesn't seem to be a planned idea for the making but rather an instant thought of creativeness e.g. "let there be light ....and God saw that it was good..."

So in your story, your god does not know enough to do a Potential Problem Analysis before he turns on a machine? Wow. We teach that to our third year engineers. Maybe your god should consider getting a college education?


Really, though? That's the excuse you provide to yourself? That your God doesn't know how to think things through before acting? Eek? You accept that?

"Let us" ... suggests God was not alone.

No idea what that means or why you wrote it. Do you? Or is it a will o' the wisp intended to make us stop thinking about whjy your mythology doesn't know who created Satan or why? You should really ask yourself that. "Why did I make that statement. What was my intended effect?" and then let me know once you figure it out. Because I'm curious.

Don't agree with you that this is a mythology of course but I believe you know who created satan.

Nope. I have no idea who you think created Satan. And I am not going to assume I know what you think. It's why I asked you explicitly and without subterfuge.
Are you saying that you have no answer?