• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Pathology of Poverty. THE REMIX

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen you guys pointing out "not being paid enough" as the cause of the problem.

eta: oh, and knock off the "long term thinking" canard. some of the wealthiest people on the planet are short term thinkers. They only think one quarter ahead at a time in order to maximize their stock options.
 
a big reason I say that markets must produce poverty, is because that's what they have done. Not for everyone, but definitely for some people. Here an analysis on a global scale.


http://prospect.org/article/free-markets-and-poverty

I don't know where they are getting their garbage. Just look at the world--the freer the economy the greater the growth. Perhaps they are getting mislead by places which only pretend to be capitalist--places like Russia. When business is not allowed to actually compete you don't get nearly the benefit.

When you want to predict how a country will do look to it's government. The more the government meddles with the business world the less well it does.

I do agree the top countries are pulling away from the bottom ones--I would be surprised if it were the other way around. The shitholes of the world are kleptocracies, whatever their formal government type. Such places make little progress.

Furthermore, we have seen the rise of Islamist nations--universally shitholes.
 
When you want to predict how a country will do look to it's government. The more the government meddles with the business world the less well it does.

Yes, I agree that all governments should meddle as little as the governments of Germany, Sweden, etc do.
 
http://www.slate.com/articles/busin...equality_it_may_not_be_falling_after_all.html

Let’s stop to consider what Milanovic and Lakner are really saying. It is possible that even as India and China have pulled hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, the incomes of the global rich have risen enough that overall inequality hasn’t budged. If true, that’s astonishing.


In a way, the entire issue of whether inequality is falling the world over is a bit of a red herring. Most of the reasons that liberals worry about the income gap have to do with its effects inside individual countries: the way income inequality can tilt the political system in further favor of the rich; the way it might breed tense, unhappy societies; etc.* And while the rise of living standards in Asia may be a major moral point in favor of free trade, it’s not much of an argument against redistributing income in the U.S. or Europe. (Some, like Cowen, warn that higher taxes and a bigger safety net could lead to lower global growth, but recent evidence suggests just the opposite.)


At the same time, most can agree that the progress against poverty in China and India has been one of the great developments of the past 30 years. The real question, as Matt Yglesias wrote here in January, is whether there needs to be “a zero-sum trade-off between the interests of the American middle class and Asian peasants.” But the idea that global inequality is on the wane may just be a bogus factoid—an artifact of incomplete data, and nothing more.

China and India aren't the real messes.

Note, also, that the Chinese government is deliberately holding it's people down. They're a milder form of kleptocracy rather than anything like a free economy.
 
a big reason I say that markets must produce poverty, is because that's what they have done. Not for everyone, but definitely for some people. Here an analysis on a global scale.


http://prospect.org/article/free-markets-and-poverty

I don't know where they are getting their garbage. Just look at the world--the freer the economy the greater the growth. Perhaps they are getting mislead by places which only pretend to be capitalist--places like Russia. When business is not allowed to actually compete you don't get nearly the benefit.

When you want to predict how a country will do look to it's government. The more the government meddles with the business world the less well it does.

I do agree the top countries are pulling away from the bottom ones--I would be surprised if it were the other way around. The shitholes of the world are kleptocracies, whatever their formal government type. Such places make little progress.

Furthermore, we have seen the rise of Islamist nations--universally shitholes.

so any improvement in poverty rates in these countries could not be counted as market victories?
 
Poverty has reduced massively since 1981, at least according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty#Absolute_poverty
But that only matters if reducing poverty is the priority.

We need to get professional help for the 1%. They may very well destroy us all.

I agree.

the-professional-movie-poster-1994-1020191956.jpg

The priority is to do damage to the outgroup.
 
Poverty has reduced massively since 1981, at least according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty#Absolute_poverty
But that only matters if reducing poverty is the priority.

Honestly, that absolute poverty measure doesn't seem to useful. Saying that 99.9% of American workers make more than $1.25 a day doesn't mean terribly much. I'm sure the American family struggling to put food on the table should feel good that they are rich compared to a family from Bangladesh.
 
In the OP I see a claim of learned helplessness and self perpetuating poverty, and I see is inexplicably linked to race. Why does it start with "black people have this problem" without giving any data that such family issues (like single parenthood) is exclusive or even more prevalent amongst poor black people than poor white people. It may be, but to just assert it with no evidence is irrational.

I didn't see Athena linking this to blackness.

And I know I don't link this to blackness. It's a thing that affects anyone in poverty.

The "single parent" argument is bogus also. Rich single parents leave lots of money to their kids. Definitely, the nuclear family model sets up an in-built problem when divorce or out of wedlock births occur by not having social mechanisms in place for poorer people. Richer people just hire a little extra help to deal with it. Nuclear families crumble in the face of abject poverty, and drug addiction, because they are not an adequate answer to the economic problems that cause their dissolution. The actual problem is the isolation of an individual with his/her problems...and lack of other supportive social structures.
 
China and India aren't the real messes.

Note, also, that the Chinese government is deliberately holding it's people down. They're a milder form of kleptocracy rather than anything like a free economy.

so any easing of poverty in China would not be counted as a market victory?

Of course improvement there is a good thing.

I don't know about the situation in India, China is definitely being held back and thus we don't see as much growth as we should--thus making market economies look worse than they really are.
 
so any easing of poverty in China would not be counted as a market victory?

Of course improvement there is a good thing.

I don't know about the situation in India, China is definitely being held back and thus we don't see as much growth as we should--thus making market economies look worse than they really are.

Are you sure of that, Loren? Isn't improvement in evil communist countries really just a strengthening of evil? You are back again to growth, undifferentiated as to the type of growth. Everything reduced down to monetary units not as to type of production gives no measure of standard of living.
 
Of course improvement there is a good thing.

I don't know about the situation in India, China is definitely being held back and thus we don't see as much growth as we should--thus making market economies look worse than they really are.

Are you sure of that, Loren? Isn't improvement in evil communist countries really just a strengthening of evil? You are back again to growth, undifferentiated as to the type of growth. Everything reduced down to monetary units not as to type of production gives no measure of standard of living.

China is not communist other than in name.
 
But that only matters if reducing poverty is the priority.

Honestly, that absolute poverty measure doesn't seem to useful. Saying that 99.9% of American workers make more than $1.25 a day doesn't mean terribly much. I'm sure the American family struggling to put food on the table should feel good that they are rich compared to a family from Bangladesh.
Doesn't mean much? At least it means something. The relative poverty measure means nothing. A person who simply defines the poorest N percent as impoverished, declares "in terms of relative poverty, the next class up would by default become the new poverty class.", and infers "A poverty class is enivitable in a market system left to its own devices.", is ludicrously asserting a synthetic cause for an analytic statement. It's no different from blaming Obama for 2 plus 2 failing to add up to 5. A poverty class is inevitable in any system at all when you define "poverty" that way. This is so painfully obvious that it defies credulity to imagine that the people who say such things are not aware of it; they appear to be deliberately constructing a fallacious argument in the hope that somebody will be taken in by their rhetoric, erroneously blame market economics, and sign up with their hate movement that attacks everyone who has been very lucky in the market.

As far as an American family struggling to put food on the table goes, it's perfectly possible and entirely appropriate to define an absolute poverty measure at a higher level than $1.25 a day; and we might as well apply that higher level to calculating Bangladeshi poverty too. Freer markets have resulted in an enormous decline in the number of people living below any particular absolute poverty line you care to name. Not that you'll name such a line -- that's not a useful conversation to have when your priority is to get people to drool over shooting the "1%".
 
The bottom 10% in the U.S. are better off than the bottom 10% in many of the social democracies in Europe, including Germany and France, according to the Better Life Index, which was calculated by the OECD, using measures beyond just income and GDP, but also things like quality of life, civic engagement are included (metrics which the left never seems to consider important to take into account when talking about inequality and the quality of life of the poor).

inequality.png


http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ive-better-than-most-of-the-rest-of-humanity/

http://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...ly-chart-17?Fsrc=scn/gp/wl/dc/betterlifeindex
 
Are you sure of that, Loren? Isn't improvement in evil communist countries really just a strengthening of evil? You are back again to growth, undifferentiated as to the type of growth. Everything reduced down to monetary units not as to type of production gives no measure of standard of living.

China is not communist other than in name.

What would you call it? The sheer complexity of its ethnic mix makes it actually a lot of little sub countries sewn together by a so called government that never has come close to adequate governance of its territory. It still is recovering from European colonization of the 19th and 20th centuries. I do believe the governing entity is the Communist Party. They would make a terrible mistake emulating the U.S.
 
The bottom 10% in the U.S. are better off than the bottom 10% in many of the social democracies in Europe, including Germany and France, according to the Better Life Index, which was calculated by the OECD, using measures beyond just income and GDP, but also things like quality of life, civic engagement are included (metrics which the left never seems to consider important to take into account when talking about inequality and the quality of life of the poor).

inequality.png


http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ive-better-than-most-of-the-rest-of-humanity/

http://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...ly-chart-17?Fsrc=scn/gp/wl/dc/betterlifeindex

You are right, most of the left know better than what is shown on these charts. It equates the bottom 10% in the U.S. with the top 10% in Italy. Complete bullshit! Your sources are Forbes...give me a break. Oh, I know you can't be doing that. This chart is about as ridiculous as any I have seen.
 
The bottom 10% in the U.S. are better off than the bottom 10% in many of the social democracies in Europe, including Germany and France, according to the Better Life Index, which was calculated by the OECD, using measures beyond just income and GDP, but also things like quality of life, civic engagement are included (metrics which the left never seems to consider important to take into account when talking about inequality and the quality of life of the poor).

inequality.png


http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ive-better-than-most-of-the-rest-of-humanity/

http://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...ly-chart-17?Fsrc=scn/gp/wl/dc/betterlifeindex

You are right, most of the left know better than what is shown on these charts. It equates the bottom 10% in the U.S. with the top 10% in Italy. Complete bullshit! Your sources are Forbes...give me a break. Oh, I know you can't be doing that. This chart is about as ridiculous as any I have seen.

The hallmark of a biased individual - when the data disagrees with their position, simply deny the data. Problem solved!

By the way, you failed to accurately identify the source of the data, the OECD: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/21111111111

Regardless, do you have something better to provide a comparison between countries that focus on metrics other than strictly wealth and income?
 
You are right, most of the left know better than what is shown on these charts. It equates the bottom 10% in the U.S. with the top 10% in Italy. Complete bullshit! Your sources are Forbes...give me a break. Oh, I know you can't be doing that. This chart is about as ridiculous as any I have seen.

The hallmark of a biased individual - when the data disagrees with their position, simply deny the data. Problem solved!

By the way, you failed to accurately identify the source of the data, the OECD: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/21111111111

Regardless, do you have something better to provide a comparison between countries that focus on metrics other than strictly wealth and income?

"Better Life Index" yeah sure, Max. I always tune into an international entrepreneurship promotion when I want facts about the environment. Their advice is not valid for about 99% of the world's population. The website as far as I can determine simply promotes commercialism and commodification of the earth's resources. That is what they call a better life. You really are a Johnny one note. You only look at life through a very special prism and only see one color of light. Not all the horses in the world are interested in your horse race. Some of us care more about the human race.
 
China is not communist other than in name.

What would you call it? The sheer complexity of its ethnic mix makes it actually a lot of little sub countries sewn together by a so called government that never has come close to adequate governance of its territory. It still is recovering from European colonization of the 19th and 20th centuries. I do believe the governing entity is the Communist Party. They would make a terrible mistake emulating the U.S.

I would describe it as a capitalist dictatorship.

It's full of entrepreneurs. Consider an example:

Hole-in-the-wall Shop.jpg

I took this last year in Suzhou, China. Sorry about the image quality, that's 1/8 second @ 50mm effective focal length and I still keep forgetting about the ISO adjustment--I learned on film, not digital. Do you really think the state is running a shop in roughly 5' x 5'?? (Yeah, you can't see the depth in the photo. She has no light in there, even if the viewing angle permitted it you wouldn't see the back.)

This is just someone selling snacks etc outside a tourist site.

I've seen even smaller shops before but I haven't had my camera along when I encountered them.

I can't actually address the ownership of the bigger places but I see far too much competition for state ownership. (And, yes, I have been in places that really were communist--I've been in the majority of the countries behind the Iron Curtain. You didn't see nearby businesses that competed with each other.)
 
Back
Top Bottom