The Pathology of Poverty. THE REMIX

[Jason Harvestdancer]

People who are not extremely wealthy choose not to be extremely wealthy. That's why we have to step on the necks of the poor and the middle class anytime doing so benefits the wealthy. To do otherwise would make us all less free!

Do you really believe that?

 

[arkirk]

What would you call it? The sheer complexity of its ethnic mix makes it actually a lot of little sub countries sewn together by a so called government that never has come close to adequate governance of its territory. It still is recovering from European colonization of the 19th and 20th centuries. I do believe the governing entity is the Communist Party. They would make a terrible mistake emulating the U.S.

I would describe it as a capitalist dictatorship.

It's full of entrepreneurs. Consider an example:

View attachment 966

I took this last year in Suzhou, China. Sorry about the image quality, that's 1/8 second @ 50mm effective focal length and I still keep forgetting about the ISO adjustment--I learned on film, not digital. Do you really think the state is running a shop in roughly 5' x 5'?? (Yeah, you can't see the depth in the photo. She has no light in there, even if the viewing angle permitted it you wouldn't see the back.)

This is just someone selling snacks etc outside a tourist site.

I've seen even smaller shops before but I haven't had my camera along when I encountered them.

I can't actually address the ownership of the bigger places but I see far too much competition for state ownership. (And, yes, I have been in places that really were communist--I've been in the majority of the countries behind the Iron Curtain. You didn't see nearby businesses that competed with each other.)

Is that some kind of gold standard for human behavior...competition? What exactly are you trying to say here with this girl selling snacks..."See, they're just like us!" You suppose that girl would prefer a good education to standing in a 5' x 5' space all day? I can show you things just like that in L.A. So did you visit Foxconn? Why were you in "the majority of the countries behind the Iron Curtain"? That seems like you do a lot of travel for someone not doing some kind of business.

You have a giant carbon footprint. What other kind of footprints are you leaving behind you? If you go to rural China, you will find just what I said was there...a country too shattered by years of colonialism and now western capitalism to meet the needs of its people. They are trying some of the time and not everything the government of China does is bad. And along come Loren with his notion that "it can't be communism because people compete with each other." Because it is China, it may be capitalistic, but it still has to have a dictatorship. That is plain silly.

You will never be anything but critical of all attempts at government in the rest of the world...hate the government and buy a cookie from the girl. There is really no connection.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is that some kind of gold standard for human behavior...competition? What exactly are you trying to say here with this girl selling snacks..."See, they're just like us!" You suppose that girl would prefer a good education to standing in a 5' x 5' space all day? I can show you things just like that in L.A. So did you visit Foxconn? Why were you in "the majority of the countries behind the Iron Curtain"? That seems like you do a lot of travel for someone not doing some kind of business.

Competition is the mark of capitalism, not communism.

You have a giant carbon footprint. What other kind of footprints are you leaving behind you? If you go to rural China, you will find just what I said was there...a country too shattered by years of colonialism and now western capitalism to meet the needs of its people. They are trying some of the time and not everything the government of China does is bad. And along come Loren with his notion that "it can't be communism because people compete with each other." Because it is China, it may be capitalistic, but it still has to have a dictatorship. That is plain silly.

You will never be anything but critical of all attempts at government in the rest of the world...hate the government and buy a cookie from the girl. There is really no connection.

Rural China was shattered by the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.


And I see nothing in here that addresses my point in posting her picture--that it's clear evidence of capitalism at work.

 

[lpetrich]

I agree with arkirk. That "Better Life Index" looks very bogus.

Here's a place with more objective statistics: http://gapminder.org

I looked at Gapminder World, with Income per Person and Income Share of Poorest 10%. The year 2000 was the most recent year with comprehensive stats.

US: $39758 * 1.88% = $750
Canada: $32449 * 2.63% = $853
Finland: $27172 * 4.02% = $1090
Germany: $29727 * 3.22% = $960
Italy: $27160 * 2.3% = $620
Spain: $23410 * 2.57% = $600

However, I couldn't find numbers at Gapminder on how many people in each nation are in the lowest 10% of income.

The fraction of national income going to the top 10% is also revealing. US: 30%, Canada: 25%, Finland: 23%, Germany: 22%, Italy: 27%, Spain: 27%.

 

[ksen]

working as intended

 

[laughing dog]

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking.

There are many possible factors causing poverty, so it is unhelpful to isolate one factor and ignore the others.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking.

There are many possible factors causing poverty, so it is unhelpful to isolate one factor and ignore the others.

not only are there many possible factors, there are many proven factors that are causes and contributors to the creation and perpetuation of the social condition known as poverty. And since those factors have been listed and sourced over many years and multiple message boards, to say otherwise is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking.

There are many possible factors causing poverty, so it is unhelpful to isolate one factor and ignore the others.

Unfortunate external events are not something that the subject can personally control. Ignoring those factors that a person can control because there are external factors is even less helpful.

 

[arkirk]

There are many possible factors causing poverty, so it is unhelpful to isolate one factor and ignore the others.

Unfortunate external events are not something that the subject can personally control. Ignoring those factors that a person can control because there are external factors is even less helpful.

Wall Street has outfits with high speed computers to really give the term "short term" some real meaning. These high powered electronic outfits can buy and sell stock in milliseconds. It is not only short term, but also lightning fast. Is THAT the kind of "short term" thinking Loren is talking about? No! He is upset that the poor homeless guy is wondering about where his next meal is coming from rather than investing.

When people become stripped bare of resources, they can only do short term thinking. That is only a symptom that the poor person needs help...not a lecture from Loren.

 

[laughing dog]

There are many possible factors causing poverty, so it is unhelpful to isolate one factor and ignore the others.

Unfortunate external events are not something that the subject can personally control. Ignoring those factors that a person can control because there are external factors is even less helpful.

I agree. Of course, I don't see anyone around here doing that either.

 

[Bomb#20]

I agree with arkirk. That "Better Life Index" looks very bogus.

Here's a place with more objective statistics: http://gapminder.org

I looked at Gapminder World, with Income per Person and Income Share of Poorest 10%. The year 2000 was the most recent year with comprehensive stats.

US: $39758 * 1.88% = $750
Canada: $32449 * 2.63% = $853
Finland: $27172 * 4.02% = $1090
Germany: $29727 * 3.22% = $960
Italy: $27160 * 2.3% = $620
Spain: $23410 * 2.57% = $600

Assuming you mean to be calculating the income of the poorest 10%, those numbers look very bogus. You appear to have lost a decimal point.

However, I couldn't find numbers at Gapminder on how many people in each nation are in the lowest 10% of income.

Wild guess: 10%?

 

[lpetrich]

I think that you're right about what that 10% means, Bomb#20.

US: $39758 * 1.88% / 10% = $7500
Canada: $32449 * 2.63% / 10% = $8530
Finland: $27172 * 4.02% / 10% = $10900
Germany: $29727 * 3.22% / 10% = $9600
Italy: $27160 * 2.3% / 10% = $6200
Spain: $23410 * 2.57% / 10% = $6000

So the poorer citizens of some European countries are better off than their American counterparts, at least on average.