• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Pathology of Poverty. THE REMIX

AthenaAwakened

Contributor
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
5,338
Location
Right behind you so ... BOO!
Basic Beliefs
non-theist, anarcho-socialist
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/culture-of-povertysocialwelfarepaulryanaffluenza.html

In his report, officially titled “The Negro Family: The Case for National Action,” Moynihan claimed that African-American family values produced too many fatherless households and nurtured what he called a “tangle of pathology,” a self-perpetuating, self-defeating cultural flaw responsible for persistently high rates of poverty and violent crime. Conservative columnists and politicians seized on the report, promulgated by a liberal in Lyndon B. Johnson’s administration, as official evidence that African-American culture was dangerously pathological. Civil rights leaders saw it as an attempt to blame the black community for systemic problems of racial discrimination. A wide spectrum of academic researchers criticized the report, finding errors and mistaken statistical logic; it was a hasty analysis wrapped in provocative rhetoric. Over the next decade, more evidence was brought forth that challenged Moynihan’s data and assumptions (and Lewis’). By the late 1970s, the premise that poor people have a distinctive culture that causes them to fail seemed to have been rejected.

Reagan’s election in 1980, however, rehabilitated the culture of poverty concept by invoking images of welfare queens and the supposed dangers of a dependent underclass. In 1984, Charles Murray, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, wrote a popular book called “Losing Ground,” which claimed harmful social programs and bad behavior by the poor were the main causes of the growing poverty of the era. Liberal academics countered that unemployment in deindustrialized urban areas was the main cause of poverty, though some of their cohort also conceded Moynihan’s original premise, arguing that economic failure partly resulted from ineffective parenting within the underclass. Once again, cause and effect were up for grabs, and conservatives (then, as now) opted for the appealing explanation that poor people cause their own problems.


In his interview with Bennett, Ryan cited Murray approvingly, a reference that intensified the charges of racism levied against him. Murray is a co-author of “The Bell Curve,” published in 1994, which controversially posited a genetic link between race and IQ. His 2008 book, “Coming Apart,” argued that the white lower classes were largely abandoning marriage and family fidelity, that they too have been infected with the tangle of pathology. The steep rise in single-parent households among whites and Latinos is decried as a spreading cultural plague of bad family values, but what these trends actually confirm is the connection between a lagging economy and the ability of poor people to afford marriage.

Charting the poverty rate against other historical data shows that recessions bring steep rises in poverty and recoveries bring declines. The current rate is just over 15 percent (up from 11 percent in 2000), which is where it has been since 2009. It was also that high in 1983 and 1993, both periods of economic decline. Poverty has not returned to the extreme rates of the early 1960s (when it was over 20 percent), before the federal government enacted anti-poverty programs, which played an important role in reducing poverty in the recessions that followed. Earlier peaks were short-lived. Today, though, poverty has remained at 15 percent for nearly five years. We are warned that this is the new normal, and, disturbingly, so it seems to be.


Bad behavior from the top


So what causes poverty? What precipitates recessions that throw people out of work and curtail vital services in cash-strapped municipalities and states? The last one, which began in 2008, resulted from bad behavior, though not by poor people. Rather, we saw fraudulent and predatory practices by the captains of finance, corrupt behavior by regulators and elected officials and an ethos condoning exploitation at all levels of the economy, especially against the most vulnerable. These practices are also cultural — driven by the rationalized prerogatives of people with too much wealth and power — and they wreak much more havoc than the shortcomings of poor parents.

For example, the decision of many employers to short workers’ wages by not paying for overtime or by altering records of time and tips is a costly cultural choice. The Economic Policy Institute determined that wage theft in 2008 amounted to almost $200 million, nearly four times the haul from all types of robberies in 2009 (about $57 million). The Wall Street–caused collapse of 2008 saw 3.6 million jobs lost and up to 4 million home foreclosures, including a great many black and Latino victims of fraudulent, predatory mortgages. The wealthy perpetrators of this bad behavior have been perversely rewarded. Meanwhile, the racial wealth gap has grown enormously since 2008. Wealth inequality in the U.S. is greater now than at any time since 1928, and the share funneled to the top 1 percent continues to grow.

We need to get professional help for the 1%. They may very well destroy us all.
 
No, we need to get professional help for those who keep the blacks down by eternally beating the discrimination drum.

While there is no doubt some racism in the reports being referred to there's also a very real pattern.

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking. Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon. That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.
 
No, we need to get professional help for those who keep the blacks down by eternally beating the discrimination drum.
I totally agree. We need to stop policies that discriminate. And we need to find professional help for the people who devise those policies and for the people who defend them.
While there is no doubt some racism in the reports being referred to there's also a very real pattern.

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking.
I agree again. It is short term thinking to allow stock speculation to replace actual production as a way to get rich quick. It is short term thinking to move jobs away, to suppress wages and to practice usury against the working classes. That kind of think makes bubbles and bubbles burst.
Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon.
correct again. The long view dictates the wise businessman invests in his people, not park his money offshore. And in the long haul, his ROI will be much more.
That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.

Actually it is, Loren. Just not in the way you think.
 
I totally agree. We need to stop policies that discriminate. And we need to find professional help for the people who devise those policies and for the people who defend them.

You're defending them. Have you booked an appointment yet?

I agree again. It is short term thinking to allow stock speculation to replace actual production as a way to get rich quick. It is short term thinking to move jobs away, to suppress wages and to practice usury against the working classes. That kind of think makes bubbles and bubbles burst.

Bubbles happen when people (not your demon "businessmen") overvalue something. It's not the professionals, it's the average people jumping on the bandwagon.

Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon.
correct again. The long view dictates the wise businessman invests in his people, not park his money offshore. And in the long haul, his ROI will be much more.
That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.

Actually it is, Loren. Just not in the way you think.

The businessman who invests too much in his people simply finds them using that training to go to the competition. Invest in moderation.
 
People who are not extremely wealthy choose not to be extremely wealthy. That's why we have to step on the necks of the poor and the middle class anytime doing so benefits the wealthy. To do otherwise would make us all less free! [/conservolibertarian]
 
You're defending them. Have you booked an appointment yet?

I agree again. It is short term thinking to allow stock speculation to replace actual production as a way to get rich quick. It is short term thinking to move jobs away, to suppress wages and to practice usury against the working classes. That kind of think makes bubbles and bubbles burst.

Bubbles happen when people (not your demon "businessmen") overvalue something. It's not the professionals, it's the average people jumping on the bandwagon.

Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon.
correct again. The long view dictates the wise businessman invests in his people, not park his money offshore. And in the long haul, his ROI will be much more.
That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.

Actually it is, Loren. Just not in the way you think.

The businessman who invests too much in his people simply finds them using that training to go to the competition. Invest in moderation.

:facepalm:
 
No, we need to get professional help for those who keep the blacks down by eternally beating the discrimination drum.

While there is no doubt some racism in the reports being referred to there's also a very real pattern.

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking. Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon. That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.

It is discrimination that leads to short term thinking you accuse the poor of voluntarily accepting. It is a matter of eating today and eating tomorrow. You who have investment funds and the like seem to be making meaningless suggestions to those who don't have your advantage. The discrimination is real, Loren, and you are part of it.

Poor people are forced to live in the moment. Short term thinking is the result of discrimination. There you go again blaming the victim!
 
No, we need to get professional help for those who keep the blacks down by eternally beating the discrimination drum.

While there is no doubt some racism in the reports being referred to there's also a very real pattern.

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking. Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon. That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.

It is discrimination that leads to short term thinking you accuse the poor of voluntarily accepting. It is a matter of eating today and eating tomorrow. You who have investment funds and the like seem to be making meaningless suggestions to those who don't have your advantage. The discrimination is real, Loren, and you are part of it.

Poor people are forced to live in the moment. Short term thinking is the result of discrimination. There you go again blaming the victim!

That must account for short term thinking among poor whites. I knew rednecks and white trash were discriminated against! "SHORT TERM THINKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM A SCHEDULER"
 
It is discrimination that leads to short term thinking you accuse the poor of voluntarily accepting. It is a matter of eating today and eating tomorrow. You who have investment funds and the like seem to be making meaningless suggestions to those who don't have your advantage. The discrimination is real, Loren, and you are part of it.

Poor people are forced to live in the moment. Short term thinking is the result of discrimination. There you go again blaming the victim!

That must account for short term thinking among poor whites. I knew rednecks and white trash were discriminated against! "SHORT TERM THINKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN FROM A SCHEDULER"

I know...especially if that scheduler is busy scheduling you for poverty. Who are these almighty scheduler class people you are talking about? Come on! You can do better than that, max.
 
How, exactly does a market system of resource distribution exist without a poverty class?

It poverty measures are based on relative wealth, it can't. There is a bell curve to earnings, and an underclass is always going to exist in a market system.
 
How, exactly does a market system of resource distribution exist without a poverty class?

It poverty measures are based on relative wealth, it can't. There is a bell curve to earnings, and an underclass is always going to exist in a market system.

Therefore, good decision making on the part of individuals can not eliminate poverty. it may raise certain individuals out of poverty, by it will not eliminate the condition.
 
How, exactly does a market system of resource distribution exist without a poverty class?

Just as a thought experiment, what would happen if the "poverty class" all dropped dead tomorrow? Would a new poverty class arise from those left alive? If so, by what mechanism?
 
How, exactly does a market system of resource distribution exist without a poverty class?

It poverty measures are based on relative wealth, it can't. There is a bell curve to earnings, and an underclass is always going to exist in a market system.
Which is why those who are hostile on principle to market systems will always choose to measure poverty based on relative wealth, in order to make their contentions unfalsifiable.

How a market system of resource distribution can exist without a poverty class is perfectly straightforward. First, identify an absolute, not a relative, measure of poverty: a specific standard of living that will be considered unimpoverished. Second, address poverty exactly the same way a market system of resource distribution exists without civil war, local rule by gangsters, invasion by foreign enemies, illiteracy, plague, or breakdown of the market system of resource distribution: use the market to distribute resources in a way that causes so many people to produce so much wealth that it's feasible for government to collect enough taxes to pay for the elimination of those social ills.

The better question is: how, exactly, does a non-market system of resource distribution exist without a poverty class?
 
How, exactly does a market system of resource distribution exist without a poverty class?

Just as a thought experiment, what would happen if the "poverty class" all dropped dead tomorrow? Would a new poverty class arise from those left alive?
yes.
If so, by what mechanism?

in terms of relative poverty, the next class up would by default become the new poverty class.
 
Just as a thought experiment, what would happen if the "poverty class" all dropped dead tomorrow? Would a new poverty class arise from those left alive?
yes.
If so, by what mechanism?

in terms of relative poverty, the next class up would by default become the new poverty class.

What actual definition of poverty are you using here?

And are the members of the new poverty class (as you are defining it) worse off in any way than they were before?
 
Because if it is relative, then those with less ability (regardless of education) will earn less than those with more ability. IQ, for example, follows a bell curve. Earnings are highly correlated to IQ. Therefore those at the dumb end will earn less in a market.

I gee folks, 20% of those who take the Armed Forces entrance test are deemed "untrainable". And underclass must exist in a free market, unless charity makes up the full difference.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -

yes.
If so, by what mechanism?

in terms of relative poverty, the next class up would by default become the new poverty class.

What actual definition of poverty are you using here?

And are the members of the new poverty class (as you are defining it) worse off in any way than they were before?

Less self esteem.
 
How can I put this...?

Poverty is a result of policy and practice.
It is not generated by poor people.
It is systemic.

It is a socio-economic condition shaped by social, economic, and political decisions and enforcement.

How you define who lives in poverty varies. The US government has a poverty line, a specific income determined by the number of people in a household and the income of that household. Sociologists and economists have other ways o deciding who is and is not living in poverty.

Generally speaking, most people agree that food insecurity, periodic suspension of working utilities, homelessness, lack of ability to pay for adequate health care, and persistent debt are all characteristic of someone living in poverty.

Person may find herself in poverty due to bad choices or through no fault of her own. Race, gender, age, and disability can all factor into the probability of a person falling into poverty. As we have seen over the last three decades of deregulation and cutting of social services, not to mention the changed tax structure, private wealth can migrate up and away form those on the economic bottom rung, making the life choices of many dwindle in number, leading not just to a poverty of the purse, but also the soul.
 
No, we need to get professional help for those who keep the blacks down by eternally beating the discrimination drum.

While there is no doubt some racism in the reports being referred to there's also a very real pattern.

What causes poverty is simple: Short term thinking. Those that look to a long time horizon fare far better than those who look to a short time horizon. That's something you learn from your environment, not something imposed by discrimination.

It is discrimination that leads to short term thinking you accuse the poor of voluntarily accepting. It is a matter of eating today and eating tomorrow. You who have investment funds and the like seem to be making meaningless suggestions to those who don't have your advantage. The discrimination is real, Loren, and you are part of it.

Poor people are forced to live in the moment. Short term thinking is the result of discrimination. There you go again blaming the victim!

Not being able to see the other choice doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Back
Top Bottom