The predominant factor in black deaths by police is more crimes commited - not racism

[laughing dog]

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

Excellent question, especially relevant for authority figures with the explicit backing of the state to make live and death decisions.

 

[Axulus]

Why "us"? Why is it "us" vs. "them"? Should police shoot unarmed whites, or should the focus only be on reducing black deaths?

Is this happening or not? Hell, you are doing what the quote says right now.

Also, are the blacks telling the other black men to stop killing them at almost 100x the rate of cops? Does this even matter?

No, Black people do nothing about crime in our own neighborhoods. We love burying each other. it is a hoot and a half. Woohoo.

[/sarcasm]

Now I will ask you what I ask Loren

Do you read what you write? Or do you really believe deep down that black folk are beasts, idiots and brutes incapable of living in civilized society?

Whites are beasts, they kill rape and murder. A far bigger concern of mine than the white and black deaths at the hands of police. Can you say the same? This BS about brutes not capable of living in civilized society indicates how deep down you think whites who dare criticize your politically correct point of view are all racists.

Instead of protesting against racist cops whenever they kill blacks but just shrugging the shoulders when they kill whites, how about being constructive with the police and working together with them to make neighborhoods safer and demanding a change in police tactics in general to reduce shooting and excessive force incidents for all people instead of just "us"? If there is racism or particular concern with police tactics in black neighborhoods, then that is worth bring up as well, but to claim every incident is racism when there is no data to support it is not only divisive, its not constructive and it focuses on the wrong problems. Until the black community can accept that the predominant factor in the difference in police stats is due to more crimes committed and not racism (whether due to being poorer or other factors), true progress on the issue will never be made.

 

[ksen]

Who shrugs their shoulders when cops kill whites?

How about joining us in our call for more accountability from police officers?

 

[Axulus]

Who shrugs their shoulders when cops kill whites?

How about joining us in our call for more accountability from police officers?

Whites across the country have joined up with blacks to protest the police killings of Brown and Garner. Where are the massive protests with blacks and whites getting together to protest when a white is the victim? Why are white victims never mentioned in any of the current protests (despite similar numbers being killed by police as blacks in raw numbers)? A good example of this was when the homeless and unarmed man Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by police for supposed "resistance" to arrest. Far more brutal and outrageous than what happened to Eric Garner (although I have not and never will excuse what happened to Eric Garner). None of the cops involved were convicted of anything.

I'm totally with you in the call for more accountability for police, improved police and community relations, better training, and improved tactics that resort to alternatives other than force (and lower levels of force) more often.

 

[Axulus]

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

Excellent question, especially relevant for authority figures with the explicit backing of the state to make live and death decisions.

Depends on if the standard demanded is a superhuman level of behavior with perfection demanded in dangerous and threatening situations encountered on a routine basis.

 

[RavenSky]

Depends on if the standard demanded is a superhuman level of behavior with perfection demanded in dangerous and threatening situations encountered on a routine basis.

That sounds like what "cop" is demanding of the general public in his op-ed piece.

 

[Axulus]

It's interesting that you consider the demonization of both of them to be "equally unfair" when the identities of the opposition couldn't be more different.

Michael Brown was being demonized by state officials -- people in positions of authority -- as a calculated release of otherwise confidential information in order to slander his character, de-legitimize the protestors, and prejudice any attempt at legal action against Daren Wilson before the trial even started. By contrast, Wilson was "demonized," if you could even call it that, based entirely on the public's perception of what he had done, both to Michael Brown and to Mike Arman.

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

You were able to express exactly what I found so wrong with his false equivalency. To take it a step further, it was Wilson's admitted initial demonization of Brown that contributed to Michael Brown being dead.

Michael Brown is dead

Darren Wilson is not.

There is no "equally unfair" about it.

What Michael Brown did or did not do is at the core of the debate on whether Wilson was justified in his actions or not. Wilson was the one on trial and being blamed for the situation, so Brown is very relevant to whether Wilson is a criminal that should be locked up ir not. How can discussing the plain facts and the uncertainties at hand be considered "demonization" and unfair?

 

[laughing dog]

Excellent question, especially relevant for authority figures with the explicit backing of the state to make live and death decisions.

Depends on if the standard demanded is a superhuman level of behavior with perfection demanded in dangerous and threatening situations encountered on a routine basis.

The point of that ultrabullshit is...? The police have not earned their expected automatic benefit of the doubt when they off an unarmed citizen.

 

[RavenSky]

Who shrugs their shoulders when cops kill whites?

How about joining us in our call for more accountability from police officers?

Whites across the country have joined up with blacks to protest the police killings of Brown and Garner. Where are the massive protests with blacks and whites getting together to protest when a white is the victim? Why are white victims never mentioned in any of the current protests (despite similar numbers being killed by police as blacks in raw numbers)? A good example of this was when the homeless and unarmed man Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by police for supposed "resistance" to arrest. Far more brutal and outrageous than what happened to Eric Garner (although I have not and never will excuse what happened to Eric Garner). None of the cops involved were convicted of anything.

I'm totally with you in the call for more accountability for police, improved police and community relations, better training, and improved tactics that resort to alternatives other than force (and lower levels of force) more often.

One small difference is that the three cops were, at least, prosecuted. It is disgusting that they were acquitted, but at lease they were prosecuted.

Moreover, there were, in fact, protests:

 On July 18, 2011, a large protest outside the Fullerton Police Department was organized by several people, including the victim's father Ron Thomas.[35] Ron Thomas speaks to the Fullerton City Council and the media On August 2, 2011 many members of the public spoke out about the beating at the biweekly city council meeting at the Fullerton City Hall.[36] Over 70 members of the public spoke to the city council, the vast majority of whom criticized the police. Among the speakers was Ron Thomas, the father of Kelly Thomas, as well as Kelly Thomas's stepmother. The public comment session lasted for approximately three hours. The city attorney emphasized that the city council could not respond to the comments, however following the public comment period discussion was given to provide clarification on the city's policy regarding the mentally ill. In addition, Tony Bushala, a local developer and conservative activist, announced plans to recall three members of the city council thought to have responded insufficiently to the beating.[37] The recall qualified on the ballot in February 2012[38] with a recall election scheduled for Don Bankhead, F. Dick Jones, and Pat McKinley on June 5, 2012, consolidated with the statewide primary election.[39] On June 5, 2012 all three council members were successfully recalled by Fullerton residents.[40] On Saturday August 6, 2011, a large street protest was held outside of the Fullerton City Hall. Activists at that protest, which was attended by hundreds of people, called for the release of a surveillance video shot by cameras installed at the bus depot and carried signs with slogans like "Jail All Killer Cops" and "End Police Brutality."[41] In late September 2011, the officers involved were arrested on murder charges.

So I don't understand what your complaint is.

 

[Axulus]

Whites across the country have joined up with blacks to protest the police killings of Brown and Garner. Where are the massive protests with blacks and whites getting together to protest when a white is the victim? Why are white victims never mentioned in any of the current protests (despite similar numbers being killed by police as blacks in raw numbers)? A good example of this was when the homeless and unarmed man Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by police for supposed "resistance" to arrest. Far more brutal and outrageous than what happened to Eric Garner (although I have not and never will excuse what happened to Eric Garner). None of the cops involved were convicted of anything.

I'm totally with you in the call for more accountability for police, improved police and community relations, better training, and improved tactics that resort to alternatives other than force (and lower levels of force) more often.

One small difference is that the three cops were, at least, prosecuted. It is disgusting that they were acquitted, but at lease they were prosecuted.

Moreover, there were, in fact, protests:

 On July 18, 2011, a large protest outside the Fullerton Police Department was organized by several people, including the victim's father Ron Thomas.[35] Ron Thomas speaks to the Fullerton City Council and the media On August 2, 2011 many members of the public spoke out about the beating at the biweekly city council meeting at the Fullerton City Hall.[36] Over 70 members of the public spoke to the city council, the vast majority of whom criticized the police. Among the speakers was Ron Thomas, the father of Kelly Thomas, as well as Kelly Thomas's stepmother. The public comment session lasted for approximately three hours. The city attorney emphasized that the city council could not respond to the comments, however following the public comment period discussion was given to provide clarification on the city's policy regarding the mentally ill. In addition, Tony Bushala, a local developer and conservative activist, announced plans to recall three members of the city council thought to have responded insufficiently to the beating.[37] The recall qualified on the ballot in February 2012[38] with a recall election scheduled for Don Bankhead, F. Dick Jones, and Pat McKinley on June 5, 2012, consolidated with the statewide primary election.[39] On June 5, 2012 all three council members were successfully recalled by Fullerton residents.[40] On Saturday August 6, 2011, a large street protest was held outside of the Fullerton City Hall. Activists at that protest, which was attended by hundreds of people, called for the release of a surveillance video shot by cameras installed at the bus depot and carried signs with slogans like "Jail All Killer Cops" and "End Police Brutality."[41] In late September 2011, the officers involved were arrested on murder charges.

So I don't understand what your complaint is.

Yes, there were protests, but they were localized. Fullerton is predominantly white, Asian, and Hispanic. Only about 2% were African American. My observation was about the seeming rarity of blacks joining up with whites to protest together (against the police, or whatever) when a white is the victim. It seems that blacks and whites only protest together for a victim when the skin of the victim is dark enough.

 

[Axulus]

Depends on if the standard demanded is a superhuman level of behavior with perfection demanded in dangerous and threatening situations encountered on a routine basis.

The point of that ultrabullshit is...? The police have not earned their expected automatic benefit of the doubt when they off an unarmed citizen.

I'm not saying an automatic benefit of the doubt. Rather not be so quick to condemn questionable judgment when there are contradictory accounts of what happened and a potential murder attempt of the cop (in the case of Brown and the wrestling away of the gun, causing it to misfire inside the vehicle twice). Such a situation I would not expect the absolute best ideal outcome to occur for all parties involved. I would not expect perfect judgment on whether one's life is in serious danger or just moderate danger after one came close to being shot and potentially killed.

The Eric Garner case was far more clear cut - the choke-hold was a wrong decision and the cop who did it should've been convicted of at least assault and battery.

 

[Deepak]

One small difference is that the three cops were, at least, prosecuted. It is disgusting that they were acquitted, but at lease they were prosecuted.

Moreover, there were, in fact, protests:

 On July 18, 2011, a large protest outside the Fullerton Police Department was organized by several people, including the victim's father Ron Thomas.[35] Ron Thomas speaks to the Fullerton City Council and the media On August 2, 2011 many members of the public spoke out about the beating at the biweekly city council meeting at the Fullerton City Hall.[36] Over 70 members of the public spoke to the city council, the vast majority of whom criticized the police. Among the speakers was Ron Thomas, the father of Kelly Thomas, as well as Kelly Thomas's stepmother. The public comment session lasted for approximately three hours. The city attorney emphasized that the city council could not respond to the comments, however following the public comment period discussion was given to provide clarification on the city's policy regarding the mentally ill. In addition, Tony Bushala, a local developer and conservative activist, announced plans to recall three members of the city council thought to have responded insufficiently to the beating.[37] The recall qualified on the ballot in February 2012[38] with a recall election scheduled for Don Bankhead, F. Dick Jones, and Pat McKinley on June 5, 2012, consolidated with the statewide primary election.[39] On June 5, 2012 all three council members were successfully recalled by Fullerton residents.[40] On Saturday August 6, 2011, a large street protest was held outside of the Fullerton City Hall. Activists at that protest, which was attended by hundreds of people, called for the release of a surveillance video shot by cameras installed at the bus depot and carried signs with slogans like "Jail All Killer Cops" and "End Police Brutality."[41] In late September 2011, the officers involved were arrested on murder charges.

So I don't understand what your complaint is.

What's more - the Garner case and the Thomas case are indicative of the same thing. Marginalized sections of society are frequently antagonized and brutalized by police.

Ombudsmanship is beneficial for everyone.

 

[Davka]

The point of that ultrabullshit is...? The police have not earned their expected automatic benefit of the doubt when they off an unarmed citizen.

I'm not saying an automatic benefit of the doubt. Rather not be so quick to condemn questionable judgment when there are contradictory accounts of what happened and a potential murder attempt of the cop (in the case of Brown and the wrestling away of the gun, causing it to misfire inside the vehicle twice). Such a situation I would not expect the absolute best ideal outcome to occur for all parties involved. I would not expect perfect judgment on whether one's life is in serious danger or just moderate danger after one came close to being shot and potentially killed.

The Eric Garner case was far more clear cut - the choke-hold was a wrong decision and the cop who did it should've been convicted of at least assault and battery.

Why do you think so many people are so quick to assume the cop was in the wrong? The answer is most certainly not "media propaganda," because most of these same people were just as quick to assume wrongdoing by the police long before Ferguson, or Trayvon Martin's murder. This anger has been around for a long, ,long time, far longer than it's been getting media attention. What, exactly, do you believe the reason for that anger to be?

 

[laughing dog]

The point of that ultrabullshit is...? The police have not earned their expected automatic benefit of the doubt when they off an unarmed citizen.

I'm not saying an automatic benefit of the doubt. Rather not be so quick to condemn questionable judgment when there are contradictory accounts of what happened and a potential murder attempt of the cop (in the case of Brown and the wrestling away of the gun, causing it to misfire inside the vehicle twice). Such a situation I would not expect the absolute best ideal outcome to occur for all parties involved. I would not expect perfect judgment on whether one's life is in serious danger or just moderate danger after one came close to being shot and potentially killed.

Wilson unnecessarily placed himself in the perceived danger. Tamir Rice was gunned down even though he had nothing in his hands. Even less than perfect judgment should have left both individuals alive.

Whether you like it or not, the police expect the benefit of the doubt. And it is pretty clear that their DAs bend over backwards to give it to them (how else does one explain McCullogh's behavior of not presenting a coherent case in front of the grand jury).

 

[Metaphor]

Racial diversity is a social concept.

No, the concept of racial diversity is a concept.

No, racial purity is also a social concept that could be promoted (or discouraged) for various reasons. There, again, are organizations that seek to promote racial purity for various good and bad reasons that are, for them, entirely legitimate.

So, you believe that it is morally right for such an organisation to discriminate based on race?

I plan to spend not more than 20 minutes and zero money on this website responding to posts that interest me. I don't actually think that spending 3 hours combing through pediatrics journals doing your research for you is worth my time.

"Combing through pediatric journals".

You made a claim, you've been called on that claim, and now you can't back it up.

A link to the parents that are happy with their kids being comfortable with their teachers more often than not?

No, a link that evidences your ludicrous, straight out of your ass claim that 10-20% of kindergarteners are afraid of males and there are official and unofficial policies to never hire a male kindergarten teacher and parents are co-conspirators in this discrimination.

And the REASON for that is early childhood education programs are dominated by female educators and have an either official or unofficial policy of only hiring females for lower grade levels (generally by simply failing to recruit male teachers for grades k through 2).

Ludicrous. Have you any evidence whatever for this claim? Of course you don't.

Yes they are. That is the TEXTBOOK example of what racial discrimination is: two candidates with identical backgrounds, identical qualifications, identical work histories, both sufficiently well matched to the job position, and you eliminate one because of his race. The corollary to this is when you have a superior candidate and an inferior one and you pass over the superior one because you don't want to hire someone from that particular race.

No: even in those scenarios you're not hiring by lottery. Race is not the only reason you hired anyone, and it never has been.

Again, you want to convince me that taking race into account IN ANY WAY is morally wrong. You have yet to provide me with a coherent reason why that is, especially given that race is a real thing that actually matters to people and usually has to be addressed with sensitivity even if your only intent is to avoid alienating the people who work for you.

No, I said arbitrary discrimination by race is wrong. Arbitrary discrimination by height is wrong too.

Here's a question: do you think white supremacist organizations have a right to deliberately avoid hiring non-whites?

No, or at least if they do have that moral right, then all organisations everywhere have the moral right to hire and fire people for any or no reason at all. There are laws that prevent discrimination based on race and gender, and you can't coherently make exceptions.

Given that they can demonstrate they hold a worldview that non-whites are inferior and want nothing to do with them, is there any particular reason why white supremacist groups should be forced to hire people from other races they don't want to interact with in the first place? And to clarify: I'm not talking about white supremacist PEOPLE in public positions. Should the United Klans of America be sued by black people because it refuses to hire black pyrotechnicians at its weekly cross burnings?

No, not be sued by "Black people", but if someone were qualified for a job and they can prove they were passed over solely because of their race, then yes -- they have the legal and moral right to sue.

No, I believe it's okay and prudent to take race and gender into account when it is necessary to do so.

Your response is a mealy-mouthed copout. "Taking them into account" is the discrimination. Oy vey.

In which case I will not waste my time attempting to reason with you.

I'm glad to hear it.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Who shrugs their shoulders when cops kill whites?

How about joining us in our call for more accountability from police officers?

Whites across the country have joined up with blacks to protest the police killings of Brown and Garner. Where are the massive protests with blacks and whites getting together to protest when a white is the victim? Why are white victims never mentioned in any of the current protests (despite similar numbers being killed by police as blacks in raw numbers)? A good example of this was when the homeless and unarmed man Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by police for supposed "resistance" to arrest. Far more brutal and outrageous than what happened to Eric Garner (although I have not and never will excuse what happened to Eric Garner). None of the cops involved were convicted of anything.

I'm totally with you in the call for more accountability for police, improved police and community relations, better training, and improved tactics that resort to alternatives other than force (and lower levels of force) more often.

Why aren't white people making public a cry for justice? And do think before you answer

 

[RavenSky]

One small difference is that the three cops were, at least, prosecuted. It is disgusting that they were acquitted, but at lease they were prosecuted.

Moreover, there were, in fact, protests:

 On July 18, 2011, a large protest outside the Fullerton Police Department was organized by several people, including the victim's father Ron Thomas.[35] Ron Thomas speaks to the Fullerton City Council and the media On August 2, 2011 many members of the public spoke out about the beating at the biweekly city council meeting at the Fullerton City Hall.[36] Over 70 members of the public spoke to the city council, the vast majority of whom criticized the police. Among the speakers was Ron Thomas, the father of Kelly Thomas, as well as Kelly Thomas's stepmother. The public comment session lasted for approximately three hours. The city attorney emphasized that the city council could not respond to the comments, however following the public comment period discussion was given to provide clarification on the city's policy regarding the mentally ill. In addition, Tony Bushala, a local developer and conservative activist, announced plans to recall three members of the city council thought to have responded insufficiently to the beating.[37] The recall qualified on the ballot in February 2012[38] with a recall election scheduled for Don Bankhead, F. Dick Jones, and Pat McKinley on June 5, 2012, consolidated with the statewide primary election.[39] On June 5, 2012 all three council members were successfully recalled by Fullerton residents.[40] On Saturday August 6, 2011, a large street protest was held outside of the Fullerton City Hall. Activists at that protest, which was attended by hundreds of people, called for the release of a surveillance video shot by cameras installed at the bus depot and carried signs with slogans like "Jail All Killer Cops" and "End Police Brutality."[41] In late September 2011, the officers involved were arrested on murder charges.

So I don't understand what your complaint is.

Yes, there were protests, but they were localized. Fullerton is predominantly white, Asian, and Hispanic. Only about 2% were African American. My observation was about the seeming rarity of blacks joining up with whites to protest together (against the police, or whatever) when a white is the victim. It seems that blacks and whites only protest together for a victim when the skin of the victim is dark enough.

Almost all protests are localized, even when they reference other similar incidents from other areas to show the pattern.

BTW, do you have a list of the protesters for Kelly Thomas to show that not enough blacks supported it?

 

[Axulus]

Yes, there were protests, but they were localized. Fullerton is predominantly white, Asian, and Hispanic. Only about 2% were African American. My observation was about the seeming rarity of blacks joining up with whites to protest together (against the police, or whatever) when a white is the victim. It seems that blacks and whites only protest together for a victim when the skin of the victim is dark enough.

Almost all protests are localized, even when they reference other similar incidents from other areas to show the pattern.

BTW, do you have a list of the protesters for Kelly Thomas to show that not enough blacks supported it?

I'm referring to a spread of the protests outside the community from which the incident occurred. I'm sure blacks within the community were just as outraged and joined in. Police brutality and excessive force and lack of accountability is a common cause that we can all really around, but for some reason it is far more unjust and outrageous and worthy of more widespread protests when the victim is black. The colors of the skins have been constantly emphasized in the recent protests as if that is what makes the incidents so outrageous.

 

[RavenSky]

I'm not saying an automatic benefit of the doubt. Rather not be so quick to condemn questionable judgment when there are contradictory accounts of what happened and a potential murder attempt of the cop (in the case of Brown and the wrestling away of the gun, causing it to misfire inside the vehicle twice). Such a situation I would not expect the absolute best ideal outcome to occur for all parties involved. I would not expect perfect judgment on whether one's life is in serious danger or just moderate danger after one came close to being shot and potentially killed.

The Eric Garner case was far more clear cut - the choke-hold was a wrong decision and the cop who did it should've been convicted of at least assault and battery.

Why do you think so many people are so quick to assume the cop was in the wrong? The answer is most certainly not "media propaganda," because most of these same people were just as quick to assume wrongdoing by the police long before Ferguson, or Trayvon Martin's murder. This anger has been around for a long, ,long time, far longer than it's been getting media attention. What, exactly, do you believe the reason for that anger to be?

This is not directed at you personally, even Rachel Maddow does it, but I really dislike it when Trayvon Martin's murder is brought up in these discussions because it was not a case of police killing someone. That fat fuck who murdered Trayvon was not a cop, and it bugs me that the murderer gets elevated to even the level of "bad cop" is these discussions.
/end snit

 

[Axulus]

Whites across the country have joined up with blacks to protest the police killings of Brown and Garner. Where are the massive protests with blacks and whites getting together to protest when a white is the victim? Why are white victims never mentioned in any of the current protests (despite similar numbers being killed by police as blacks in raw numbers)? A good example of this was when the homeless and unarmed man Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by police for supposed "resistance" to arrest. Far more brutal and outrageous than what happened to Eric Garner (although I have not and never will excuse what happened to Eric Garner). None of the cops involved were convicted of anything.

I'm totally with you in the call for more accountability for police, improved police and community relations, better training, and improved tactics that resort to alternatives other than force (and lower levels of force) more often.

Why aren't white people making public a cry for justice? And do think before you answer

I'm not sure what you are asking. Whites and blacks (few that there were) within that community did make a public cry for justice. Yet the protests did not spread outside the community (by both whites and blacks) like in the recent incidents because I guess Kelly Thomas' skin wasn't dark enough and therefore a little bit less worthy of getting upset over?