The predominant factor in black deaths by police is more crimes commited - not racism

[EPresence2]

I'm not the one condemning an entire group of people for the actions of relatively few. You are presenting a bullshit analogy. Period.

I don't think anyone here is condemning an entire group for the actions of a few. Do we need to add #notallcops at the beginning of every single post to get this across?

I don't think anyone is condemning an entire group for the actions of a few. Do we not to add #NotAllBlacks# at the beginning of every single post to get this across?

The problem is NOT that all cops are racist. They're not.

The problem is that American police departments overwhelmingly tend towards institutionalized racism. This is a subset of the larger problem, which is that America as a whole is riddled with institutionalized racism.

Prove the statement that American police departments overwhelmingly tend toward institutionalized racism using data without flaws.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Is this happening or not? Hell, you are doing what the quote says right now.

Also, are the blacks telling the other black men to stop killing them at almost 100x the rate of cops? Does this even matter?

No, Black people do nothing about crime in our own neighborhoods. We love burying each other. it is a hoot and a half. Woohoo.

[/sarcasm]

Now I will ask you what I ask Loren

Do you read what you write? Or do you really believe deep down that black folk are beasts, idiots and brutes incapable of living in civilized society?

Athena, each statement in the narrative you posted is without any context. The first statement would be "with context" if it read: "Stop unfair harassment and unjustified fear of black people."

Which you just did, thank you.

Thereafter, the second statement would be unnecessary. You would get a lot more people on board with that, except it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. The "us versus them" narrative on both sides really needs to go away.

There are really only a few people on this board who don't see the this whole thing as a problem of over policing, public policy that leads to racially disparate outcomes, and ignorance. Quite frankly I am not aiming to save white men's souls here. At the same time, letting ignorance stand is not an option.

 

[Davka]

Prove the statement that American police departments overwhelmingly tend toward institutionalized racism using data without flaws.

Prove that the sky is blue using data without flaws.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

If the discussion is black people being shot be white police, the terms of us and them are already in play.

And the need to change #blacklivesmatter to #alllivesmatter shows an underlying belief that black lives really don't matter until included with white lives. It appears inclusive but it really is an effort to make good people not have to feel bad about living in a society, or even inside a morality public and personal, that is not nearly as mature as we all would like it to be. The thing is, we need to feel bad, otherwise we will change nothing.

 

[EPresence2]

Which you just did, thank you.

Sorry - I was referring to the embedded picture text.

Thereafter, the second statement would be unnecessary. You would get a lot more people on board with that, except it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. The "us versus them" narrative on both sides really needs to go away.

There are really only a few people on this board who don't see the this whole thing as a problem of over policing, public policy that leads to racially disparate outcomes, and ignorance. Quite frankly I am not aiming to save white men's souls here. At the same time, letting ignorance stand is not an option.

Explain exactly what you think is ignorant about my posts. I would do that for you, and I hope you got the message that I don't hate you.

 

[Davka]

At the protests I've attended, the chant was "Black Lives Matter! All Lives Matter! Black Lives Matter! All Lives Matter!"

But then, I live in a crunchy-granola hippie town.

 

[EPresence2]

Prove the statement that American police departments overwhelmingly tend toward institutionalized racism using data without flaws.

Prove that the sky is blue using data without flaws.

Prove it in any way you can then Davka. Anecdotes and hand waving don't prove any national issue is overwhelming this way or that.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Sorry - I was referring to the embedded picture text.

Thereafter, the second statement would be unnecessary. You would get a lot more people on board with that, except it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. The "us versus them" narrative on both sides really needs to go away.

There are really only a few people on this board who don't see the this whole thing as a problem of over policing, public policy that leads to racially disparate outcomes, and ignorance. Quite frankly I am not aiming to save white men's souls here. At the same time, letting ignorance stand is not an option.

Explain exactly what you think is ignorant

I was speaking generally not just to you. Do you often think yourself being personally attacked?

about my posts. I would do that for you, and I hope you got the message that don't hate you.

Did you mean that you don't hate me?

 

[laughing dog]

Dismissal of groundless speculation is always warranted, with or without having had personal experience in police statistic compilation. It is not up to those of us using the data to show it "complete", because being "complete" is not necessary.

Since the data has not been shown to be taken from random samples, completeness is necessary.

 

[laughing dog]

Ah, the well worn out "suicide by cop" excuse. Keep grasping at those straws.

What's your problem with suicide by cop? It's a very real phenomenon. I've seen estimates that 1/4 to 1/3 of police shootings are suicide by cop.

Unless the victim has documented he/she is committing suicide by cop, it is simply a handwaving exercise for exonerating the shooter. It basically appears to be "I cannot understand why anyone would do this, so it must be suicide by cop" which is a long-winded way of saying "God willed it".

 

[EPresence2]

If the discussion is black people being shot be white police, the terms of us and them are already in play.

More sans-context bullshit. Since when is everyone attacked when one person is attacked? I'm guessing you don't know the majority of people involved in the incidents where indictment was/is less than clear.

And the need to change #blacklivesmatter to #alllivesmatter shows an underlying belief that black lives really don't matter until included with white lives. It appears inclusive but it really is an effort to make good people not have to feel bad about living in a society, or even inside a morality public and personal, that is not nearly as mature as we all would like it to be. The thing is, we need to feel bad, otherwise we will change nothing.

More bullshit - it means the lives of police matter as well. The rush to demonize Wilson in the Ferguson case, for example, doesn't help the cause of rooting out unfair profiling and instigation of resistance and resulting death (in some cases). The rush to demonize Brown was equally unfair.

 

[EPresence2]

Sorry - I was referring to the embedded picture text.

Thereafter, the second statement would be unnecessary. You would get a lot more people on board with that, except it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. The "us versus them" narrative on both sides really needs to go away.

There are really only a few people on this board who don't see the this whole thing as a problem of over policing, public policy that leads to racially disparate outcomes, and ignorance. Quite frankly I am not aiming to save white men's souls here. At the same time, letting ignorance stand is not an option.

Explain exactly what you think is ignorant

I was speaking generally not just to you. Do you often think yourself being personally attacked?

Can you be more clear about who you are addressing next time?

...about my posts. I would do that for you, and I hope you got the message that don't hate you.

Did you mean that you don't hate me?

Yes, of course - I changed the original post.

 

[George S]

By using the word "us."

When there is an "us" there is a "them." I am all for stopping the militarization of police. In the military there are "us" and "them" too. We in our uniforms, civilians are "they."

My tribe -- us -- vs. that other tribe -- them. Political parties are tribes. Religions are tribes. Nations are tribes. We are a tribal species. We naturally favor our neighbors -- those like me, my kin.

To say "we are being shot" implies my group is being shot. The expectation is that what I see as "my" group is identifiable to others as not in theirs.

"Can't we all just get along?" The answer is "no." There is too much us vs. them mentality.

That's not creating an us-v-them mentality, it's reacting to the us-v-them mentality that was created by your oppressors. If I am herded into a group of people by men with guns, and the men with guns open fire, I'm going to scream "stop shooting us!"

How, exactly, did Africans and African-Americans first come to be classified as "those people" in America, and who did the classifying? Following centuries of segregation and abuse, it's absurd to tell AAs that they are creating an us-v-them mentality.

Okay, then, perhaps not "creating" an us-v-them. But surely fanning the flames of the existing us-v-them mentality. Accepting the classification established by the horrific attitude of men who would own others as property.

Many who identify as "black" are half white. Should I identify as Jewish for having a Jewish grandfather? Should someone with a black grandfather identify as black?

I've been stopped by police when doing nothing wrong that I knew of. They pulled me over because I had changed lanes without signalling. They never issued a ticket for that. They checked out the car visually. My GPS looked like a radar detector (illegal at that time and place); they wanted to take a close look. Was that stop for Driving While Bohunk (1 grandfather Bohemian-Hungarian)?

Stop killing. Not us. Not them. Just stop killing. Stop using force to get your way. Those who stop this last, or never were violent in the first place, will experience, in my opinion, less "being shot at" than those who do.

It is as racist to make the presumption of racism without the facts as it is to be anti-specific-group is racist. Being for special advantages of any kind for a specific group is racist on its face. Many strident blacks are racist in the extreme. (Where is the NAABP -- that's Bohunk People? NAAJP? NAAWP?)

All people regardless of race, religious position, national origin, or sexual orientation should be the same before the law. And before society.

Are some white people racist? Absolutely. Are some black people racist? Absolutely. Implying that all of "them" are racist is a different statement entirely.

So, perhaps not really creating an us-v-them mentality. But treating those who would classify "us" as their "them" as correct in their classification system adopts their point of view which is that grouping by race is fine and dandy. In my opinion, it is not. Ever.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Given that the majority of instances claimed to be "suicide by cop" are initiated in the first place by police officers and not by the victim, I think this is extremely unlikely.

"Suicide by cop" is a real thing but usually involves people who deliberately attract the attention of the police (usually with a 9/11 call) and then put themselves into a position where they are likely to be killed BY the police. It's much harder to argue "suicide by cop" when an unexpected counter with a police officer suddenly results in the shooting of the suspect; most people do not wander around town on a day to day basis thinking "If only there was a cop around, I could get this over with..."

Suicide by cop is sometimes a bad guy who knows they are caught and doesn't want to go back to jail.

In which case it isn't suicide, it's the irrational mistake of a desperate, frightened man.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

More sans-context bullshit. Since when is everyone attacked when one person is attacked? I'm guessing you don't know the majority of people involved in the incidents where indictment was/is less than clear.

And the need to change #blacklivesmatter to #alllivesmatter shows an underlying belief that black lives really don't matter until included with white lives. It appears inclusive but it really is an effort to make good people not have to feel bad about living in a society, or even inside a morality public and personal, that is not nearly as mature as we all would like it to be. The thing is, we need to feel bad, otherwise we will change nothing.

More bullshit - it means the lives of police matter as well. The rush to demonize Wilson in the Ferguson case, for example, doesn't help the cause of rooting out unfair profiling and instigation of resistance and resulting death (in some cases). The rush to demonize Brown was equally unfair.

Well now that you have shown us all you know how to spell bullshit, exactly what context am I missing? Yours? Cause I am probably never, under penalty of death, going to think, post, or feel like you demand I do.

Oh, ours will be a special relationship. I can see it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And the need to change #blacklivesmatter to #alllivesmatter shows an underlying belief that black lives really don't matter until included with white lives. It appears inclusive but it really is an effort to make good people not have to feel bad about living in a society, or even inside a morality public and personal, that is not nearly as mature as we all would like it to be. The thing is, we need to feel bad, otherwise we will change nothing.

More bullshit - it means the lives of police matter as well. The rush to demonize Wilson in the Ferguson case, for example, doesn't help the cause of rooting out unfair profiling and instigation of resistance and resulting death (in some cases). The rush to demonize Brown was equally unfair.

It's interesting that you consider the demonization of both of them to be "equally unfair" when the identities of the opposition couldn't be more different.

Michael Brown was being demonized by state officials -- people in positions of authority -- as a calculated release of otherwise confidential information in order to slander his character, de-legitimize the protestors, and prejudice any attempt at legal action against Daren Wilson before the trial even started. By contrast, Wilson was "demonized," if you could even call it that, based entirely on the public's perception of what he had done, both to Michael Brown and to Mike Arman.

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

 

[EPresence2]

More bullshit - it means the lives of police matter as well. The rush to demonize Wilson in the Ferguson case, for example, doesn't help the cause of rooting out unfair profiling and instigation of resistance and resulting death (in some cases). The rush to demonize Brown was equally unfair.

It's interesting that you consider the demonization of both of them to be "equally unfair" when the identities of the opposition couldn't be more different.

Michael Brown was being demonized by state officials -- people in positions of authority -- as a calculated release of otherwise confidential information in order to slander his character, de-legitimize the protestors, and prejudice any attempt at legal action against Daren Wilson before the trial even started. By contrast, Wilson was "demonized," if you could even call it that, based entirely on the public's perception of what he had done, both to Michael Brown and to Mike Arman.

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

The narrative describing Wilson shooting an unarmed man who is surrendering make him seem pretty demonic to me. It's interesting that you said public perception - how much of that was accurate and incontrovertible? How much was inflated to legitimize the protest? The fact Brown had been involved in a strong-arm robbery moments before the altercation is valuable context. I would have appreciated knowing more about Wilson's history as well.

 

[RavenSky]

More bullshit - it means the lives of police matter as well. The rush to demonize Wilson in the Ferguson case, for example, doesn't help the cause of rooting out unfair profiling and instigation of resistance and resulting death (in some cases). The rush to demonize Brown was equally unfair.

It's interesting that you consider the demonization of both of them to be "equally unfair" when the identities of the opposition couldn't be more different.

Michael Brown was being demonized by state officials -- people in positions of authority -- as a calculated release of otherwise confidential information in order to slander his character, de-legitimize the protestors, and prejudice any attempt at legal action against Daren Wilson before the trial even started. By contrast, Wilson was "demonized," if you could even call it that, based entirely on the public's perception of what he had done, both to Michael Brown and to Mike Arman.

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

You were able to express exactly what I found so wrong with his false equivalency. To take it a step further, it was Wilson's admitted initial demonization of Brown that contributed to Michael Brown being dead.

Michael Brown is dead

Darren Wilson is not.

There is no "equally unfair" about it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's interesting that you consider the demonization of both of them to be "equally unfair" when the identities of the opposition couldn't be more different.

Michael Brown was being demonized by state officials -- people in positions of authority -- as a calculated release of otherwise confidential information in order to slander his character, de-legitimize the protestors, and prejudice any attempt at legal action against Daren Wilson before the trial even started. By contrast, Wilson was "demonized," if you could even call it that, based entirely on the public's perception of what he had done, both to Michael Brown and to Mike Arman.

Should we or should we not hold authority figures to a higher standard of behavior than than random yahoos in the streets?

The narrative describing Wilson shooting an unarmed man who is surrendering make him seem pretty demonic to me.

The narrative of a CHP officer beating up Marlene Pinnock for no good reason seems pretty "demonic" too. And yet, pointing out the fact that it happened -- and being pissed off about it -- doesn't constitute demonization of the police.

It's interesting that you said public perception - how much of that was accurate and incontrovertible? How much was inflated to legitimize the protest?

I wasn't aware that protesting the shooting of an unarmed teenager who witnesses insist was trying to surrender requires a great deal of inflation. If anything there was the omission of the putative fact that Brown and Wilson had a struggle before Brown tried to run, something that only a few witnesses even saw and that almost nobody could describe the details of.

The fact Brown had been involved in a strong-arm robbery moments before the altercation is valuable context.

No it isn't. It's an attempt at character assassination to prejudice opinion against Brown in speculation of what may have been driving his behavior. THAT is demonization.

I would have appreciated knowing more about Wilson's history as well.

The reason you didn't know anything about Wilson's history is because nobody brought it up, because doing so would ALSO have been character assassination and it wasn't actually relevant to the facts of what happened. It actually turns out that the protestors in this case took the moral high ground even when the police department resorted to slander and mudslinging.

Fortunately, the Media had no such compunctions. Daren Wilson was one of a huge group of police officers purged from the Jennings PD for corruption and/or inciting racial tension. Officers in Wilson's department were repeatedly sued for loosing their temper and beating up innocent bystanders, resorting to lethal force unnecessarily, harassment, intimidation, and various types of procedural misconduct. While a few officers were allowed to return to their jobs after a review of their performances, Wilson wasn't one of them. Moreover, at least one other person has specifically called out Daren Wilson for being emotionally volatile and unprofessional.

I suppose you think that's valid context too. If so, you have a case of two hot-headed thugs getting into a fight, and the only difference between them is that one of the thugs had a badge and a gun.

 

[Toni]

How many involve unarmed victims ?

I haven't seen data on this.

Exactly what I thought. Because as far as I can tell, there is no collected data on police shooting unarmed suspects, or even unarmed innocent bystanders who occasionally are children, sleeping in their own beds.


There are several issues: Are different standards used when assessing the risk of danger when someone is black? Male? Black and male?

Remember on the old forum, that very long thread about elevator gate? Some male posters were astonished/offended that a woman, alone in a hotel, late at night, might be uncomfortable if they found themselves alone with a strange man in an elevator. They found it preposterous and offensive that a lone male would be seen as a threat, regardless of his intentions, demeanor, dress, etc.

That is a very, very mild version of what black men face, every single day, no matter where they live, no matter how well educated, how much they have achieved, no matter how they are dressed. The difference isn't that it is just some scared woman alone in a hotel that might perceive a threat where there is none. No, the threat is perceived and acted upon by armed police officers who believe they must shoot first in order to be safe.

And there are plenty of white people saying they are justified because 'everybody knows and perhaps it is even a genetic predisposition and certainly a cultural disposition towards violence. One can't be too careful, no matter how armed one is or how many equally well armed fellow officers are backing you up, along with hundreds of years of history and a biased justice system.