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The predominant factor in black deaths by police is more crimes commited - not racism

We have a situation where whatever the reality they're going to say the same thing. Thus I am basically discounting what they are saying and looking at the actual data--and that data says they are discriminating. Look at what happened in California when the law put a stop to it. If they had not been discriminating the law would have had no effect.
You've proven that you don't realize how fucking ridiculous it looks when you claim that someone must be lying because they are saying something you don't believe, so you can stop.

I'm saying we have two possible cases:

1) They are not discriminating. They are telling the truth in saying they don't discriminate.

2) They are discriminating. They are lying in saying they don't discriminate.

In either case we see the same statement--thus the statement confers no useful information. Thus we should disregard it.

Consider the example I compared it to--pleas in the courtroom. It's not completely meaningless as there is a I-had-to plea (self defense is a subset of this) and the insanity plea. However, when the trial starts and the defendant pleads "not guilty" is the jury going to put any credence on this??

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ksen said:
What can't be waved away though is that the police kill a lot of civilians . . . a lot. And in a modern, democratic society that should be cause for concern.
How does it look per capita over time - larger numbers do not necessarily indicate greater percentages. The number of guns in circulation may also have something to do with police practices nowadays.

Also--how many days must an average person work to afford a gun? As the standard of living rises I would expect the number of guns to go up (although this would mostly show up in people buying additional guns rather than more people buying guns. If you don't want a gun it doesn't matter if they're cheaper.)
 
How so? Killings of unarmed individuals by police is rare in comparison to killing suspects that are armed. The cases get all the attention because they tend to have more unanswered questions (was he really in fear for his life?), but they are rare. Exactly as we'd predict based on the rarity of having reasonable fear for life against an unarmed individual. Especially when we remove the cases that strongly indicate suicide by cop. What was your case again?
Ah, the well worn out "suicide by cop" excuse. Keep grasping at those straws.

What's your problem with suicide by cop? It's a very real phenomenon. I've seen estimates that 1/4 to 1/3 of police shootings are suicide by cop.
 
What on earth is a 'factual analysis' of the situation?
An analysis based on facts.

You seem to believe that 'racial diversity' is a legitimate reason.
Racial diversity is a social concept. Much the way "teamwork" or "interpersonal communication" or "employee morale" are social concepts that apply in a similar context. There are various (good and bad) reasons why organizations would want to promote racial diversity in the workplace.

Is racial purity a legitimate reason?
No, racial purity is also a social concept that could be promoted (or discouraged) for various reasons. There, again, are organizations that seek to promote racial purity for various good and bad reasons that are, for them, entirely legitimate.

You would be more comfortable with 10 to 20% of kindergarteners completely loosing their shit and freaking out because they aren't comfortable being left alone with unfamiliar male teachers?

I'd be more comfortable with you actually citing evidence for your claim
I plan to spend not more than 20 minutes and zero money on this website responding to posts that interest me. I don't actually think that spending 3 hours combing through pediatrics journals doing your research for you is worth my time.

What parents? Do you have a link?
A link to the parents that are happy with their kids being comfortable with their teachers more often than not? :confused:

No. Kindergarten programs have more female teachers because most of the graduates in early childhood education are female.
And the REASON for that is early childhood education programs are dominated by female educators and have an either official or unofficial policy of only hiring females for lower grade levels (generally by simply failing to recruit male teachers for grades k through 2).

And, I assure you, plenty of people make noise about every side of every issue.
Only when they are aware of an issue that they choose to make a problem of. This is not something most people are aware of, and therefore choose not to make an issue out of.

Recruiting more male teachers at higher grade levels IS an issue (particularly 1st and 2nd grade), and is also a different topic.

Discriminating arbitrarily based on race is wrong.
And if we were discussing "discriminating arbitrarily" you might have a point.

Huh? Why 'only'? No decision is ever only influenced by race
Yes they are. That is the TEXTBOOK example of what racial discrimination is: two candidates with identical backgrounds, identical qualifications, identical work histories, both sufficiently well matched to the job position, and you eliminate one because of his race. The corollary to this is when you have a superior candidate and an inferior one and you pass over the superior one because you don't want to hire someone from that particular race.

Again, you want to convince me that taking race into account IN ANY WAY is morally wrong. You have yet to provide me with a coherent reason why that is, especially given that race is a real thing that actually matters to people and usually has to be addressed with sensitivity even if your only intent is to avoid alienating the people who work for you.

even a hard racist who doesn't want to hire any Whites would still choose the most qualified nonWhite he can find.
His decision not to consider a qualified white candidate who walked in, however, would be an example of racial discrimination. Interestingly, many school districts would (and do) find themselves in the rather odd position of scouting for qualified minority positions and, upon failing to find one, hiring a MORE qualified white teacher for that position on the basis that he who has a background in ethnic studies and experience teaching at school districts with large minority representations. THAT also happens quite a bit, especially in communities where minority applicants attempt to play their own racial background ALONE as a selling point despite their being otherwise unqualified for the job.

Because in YOUR scenario, the decision is based on the psychological needs of the students, (supposedly) solid scientific research and the school's overall education goals. In my scenario, the decision is based on social tension between the students and faculty, the distress and mistrust of the parents and the recognition of the administration that there is a sociological disconnect that cannot be bridged through conventional means.

What if you have a psychological need for racial purity?
Then you probably belong to a school district run by the Aryan Nations or the Christian Identity movement.

Here's a question: do you think white supremacist organizations have a right to deliberately avoid hiring non-whites? Given that they can demonstrate they hold a worldview that non-whites are inferior and want nothing to do with them, is there any particular reason why white supremacist groups should be forced to hire people from other races they don't want to interact with in the first place? And to clarify: I'm not talking about white supremacist PEOPLE in public positions. Should the United Klans of America be sued by black people because it refuses to hire black pyrotechnicians at its weekly cross burnings?

You believe it's okay to discriminate by race and gender
No, I believe it's okay and prudent to take race and gender into account when it is necessary to do so.

Discriminating by race or gender is an inherent affront to a person's humanity
Which is why it is only one factor of many to be considered, and also why it is secondary to a person's humanity (I DO approve of discrimination against zombies. I make no apologies for this).

Whereas while I believe you that race is real and it matters to people, those people are racially prejudiced assholes
You think that the only people who think race matters in any way shape or form are racially prejudices assholes.

In which case I will not waste my time attempting to reason with you.
 
Ah, the well worn out "suicide by cop" excuse. Keep grasping at those straws.

What's your problem with suicide by cop? It's a very real phenomenon. I've seen estimates that 1/4 to 1/3 of police shootings are suicide by cop.

Given that the majority of instances claimed to be "suicide by cop" are initiated in the first place by police officers and not by the victim, I think this is extremely unlikely.

"Suicide by cop" is a real thing but usually involves people who deliberately attract the attention of the police (usually with a 9/11 call) and then put themselves into a position where they are likely to be killed BY the police. It's much harder to argue "suicide by cop" when an unexpected counter with a police officer suddenly results in the shooting of the suspect; most people do not wander around town on a day to day basis thinking "If only there was a cop around, I could get this over with..."
 
What's your problem with suicide by cop? It's a very real phenomenon. I've seen estimates that 1/4 to 1/3 of police shootings are suicide by cop.

Given that the majority of instances claimed to be "suicide by cop" are initiated in the first place by police officers and not by the victim, I think this is extremely unlikely.

"Suicide by cop" is a real thing but usually involves people who deliberately attract the attention of the police (usually with a 9/11 call) and then put themselves into a position where they are likely to be killed BY the police. It's much harder to argue "suicide by cop" when an unexpected counter with a police officer suddenly results in the shooting of the suspect; most people do not wander around town on a day to day basis thinking "If only there was a cop around, I could get this over with..."

Suicide by cop is sometimes a bad guy who knows they are caught and doesn't want to go back to jail. (Or even to jail--that's the only explanation that makes sense for a local case. Everyone agrees he pointed a realistic replica gun at the cop. 16 years old, no rap sheet, the cop noted the plates were stolen, followed, the guy bolted and didn't realize the 4-lane road dead-ended. {The overpass was still being built.} He stops, gets out and points the gun at the cop.)
 
Why "us"? Why is it "us" vs. "them"? Should police shoot unarmed whites, or should the focus only be on reducing black deaths?
And as a corollary that statements treats all black people as a monolith. Same with the "they can't kill us all" sign left at the site of the Antonio Martin shooting, who pointed a gun at the police.
But each police shooting is a separate case and should be viewed on its own merits or lack thereof.
 
what makes you think it was lesser in the north? What data do you have that police department were racist in the south?

I'm going off of the general impression I've gotten from US history and the severity and frequency of incidents in the South vs north, where the greatest injustices tended to cluster, etc. I can't say definitively, but nothing in life is certain. We can only make educated guesses and adjust our confidence accordingly when there is new evidence and data.

What stats were kept in say 1880?

Well, without data, how do you know it has lessened at all?

When there is an absence of stats and data, we must use less reliable sources. In this day and age, we have stats to guide our conclusions. The data currently shows very little apparent racism when it comes to police arrests and killings. Therefore, to make the conclusion it hasn't lessened at all, you'd have to have the premise that there never was much racism in police depts. across the US, which seems highly implausible on its face given what I know about US history.

You won't read the book but

The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

And yes you do need to read the whole book since you have demonstrated a severe deficit in knowledge of the US criminal justice system and policing tactics.

In reading a synopsis of the book, it doesn't seem to discuss racist police but rather the criminal justice system in general (war on drugs, conviction rates, length of sentences etc). Can you point out the relevant parts that show the racist stats when comparing the same stat as it relates to the police for whites vs. blacks?
 

Why "us"? Why is it "us" vs. "them"? Should police shoot unarmed whites, or should the focus only be on reducing black deaths?
Is this happening or not? Hell, you are doing what the quote says right now.
Also, are the blacks telling the other black men to stop killing them at almost 100x the rate of cops? Does this even matter?
No, Black people do nothing about crime in our own neighborhoods. We love burying each other. it is a hoot and a half. Woohoo.

[/sarcasm]

Now I will ask you what I ask Loren

Do you read what you write? Or do you really believe deep down that black folk are beasts, idiots and brutes incapable of living in civilized society?
 
Why "us"? Why is it "us" vs. "them"? Should police shoot unarmed whites, or should the focus only be on reducing black deaths?
Is this happening or not? Hell, you are doing what the quote says right now.
Also, are the blacks telling the other black men to stop killing them at almost 100x the rate of cops? Does this even matter?
No, Black people do nothing about crime in our own neighborhoods. We love burying each other. it is a hoot and a half. Woohoo.

[/sarcasm]

Now I will ask you what I ask Loren

Do you read what you write? Or do you really believe deep down that black folk are beasts, idiots and brutes incapable of living in civilized society?
Athena, each statement in the narrative you posted is without any context. The first statement would be "with context" if it read: "Stop unfair harassment and unjustified fear of black people." Thereafter, the second statement would be unnecessary. You would get a lot more people on board with that, except it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. The "us versus them" narrative on both sides really needs to go away.
 
How the FUCK is "stop shooting us" creating an us-v-them narrative? If a group of people is being shot by another group, which group created the divide????

This is like looking at a scene from WWII, with Jews and homosexuals lined up at the edge of a mass grave, and German soldiers beginning to shoot them - and the terrified people are pleading "stop shooting us," and your response to this scene is - "why are you creating an us-v-them narrative? Can't we all just get along?"

:headdesk:
 
How the FUCK is "stop shooting us" creating an us-v-them narrative? If a group of people is being shot by another group, which group created the divide????

This is like looking at a scene from WWII, with Jews and homosexuals lined up at the edge of a mass grave, and German soldiers beginning to shoot them - and the terrified people are pleading "stop shooting us," and your response to this scene is - "why are you creating an us-v-them narrative? Can't we all just get along?"

:headdesk:
I'm not the one condemning an entire group of people for the actions of relatively few. You are presenting a bullshit analogy. Period.
 
How the FUCK is "stop shooting us" creating an us-v-them narrative? If a group of people is being shot by another group, which group created the divide????

This is like looking at a scene from WWII, with Jews and homosexuals lined up at the edge of a mass grave, and German soldiers beginning to shoot them - and the terrified people are pleading "stop shooting us," and your response to this scene is - "why are you creating an us-v-them narrative? Can't we all just get along?"

:headdesk:
I'm not the one condemning an entire group of people for the actions of relatively few. You are presenting a bullshit analogy. Period.

I don't think anyone here is condemning an entire group for the actions of a few. Do we need to add #notallcops at the beginning of every single post to get this across?

The problem is NOT that all cops are racist. They're not.

The problem is that American police departments overwhelmingly tend towards institutionalized racism. This is a subset of the larger problem, which is that America as a whole is riddled with institutionalized racism.
 
How the FUCK is "stop shooting us" creating an us-v-them narrative?
By using the word "us."

When there is an "us" there is a "them." I am all for stopping the militarization of police. In the military there are "us" and "them" too. We in our uniforms, civilians are "they."

My tribe -- us -- vs. that other tribe -- them. Political parties are tribes. Religions are tribes. Nations are tribes. We are a tribal species. We naturally favor our neighbors -- those like me, my kin.

To say "we are being shot" implies my group is being shot. The expectation is that what I see as "my" group is identifiable to others as not in theirs.

"Can't we all just get along?" The answer is "no." There is too much us vs. them mentality.
 
How the FUCK is "stop shooting us" creating an us-v-them narrative?
By using the word "us."

When there is an "us" there is a "them." I am all for stopping the militarization of police. In the military there are "us" and "them" too. We in our uniforms, civilians are "they."

My tribe -- us -- vs. that other tribe -- them. Political parties are tribes. Religions are tribes. Nations are tribes. We are a tribal species. We naturally favor our neighbors -- those like me, my kin.

To say "we are being shot" implies my group is being shot. The expectation is that what I see as "my" group is identifiable to others as not in theirs.

"Can't we all just get along?" The answer is "no." There is too much us vs. them mentality.

That's not creating an us-v-them mentality, it's reacting to the us-v-them mentality that was created by your oppressors. If I am herded into a group of people by men with guns, and the men with guns open fire, I'm going to scream "stop shooting us!"

How, exactly, did Africans and African-Americans first come to be classified as "those people" in America, and who did the classifying? Following centuries of segregation and abuse, it's absurd to tell AAs that they are creating an us-v-them mentality.
 
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