The predominant factor in black deaths by police is more crimes commited - not racism

[Axulus]

What does any of this have to do with a twelve year old being shot after a 2 second encounter with police still in their cruiser?

One or two or ten incidents are not generalizable about the country as a whole. I already admitted there is room for improvement in how police departments across the country interact with the citizens, and that there is additional reason to pay attention to how it interacts with the black community. This does not mean that every concern or statement the black community makes is legitimate.

 

[TV and credit cards]

There's good evidence that there is still a bit of unconscious racism involved with employment and promotion decisions by managers, thus contributing to their poverty. It could also be said that past racism caused less wealth/assets to be accumulated by black families (lowering inheritances and the like) - which would be a contributing factor in some cases of lower SES.

This is the first time I've heard the first claim.


I agree with the second but this is the effects of past racism, not current racism. Anti-discrimination measures will do nothing about it. Since I'm much more interested in how to fix it than in placing blame the current cause is what I care about.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know if "unconscious" is the right word but it probably starts here. Many of us don't like to 'get with the program', but you do what you have to do to feed yourself and your family.

I'm reminded of something I heard just last night: "Imagine all the things you want in life. Now imagine yourself in a dress". The setting was 1931 but I think the quote is easily transposed.

 

[Davka]

Yes, Axulus, we understand that you're racist. It's ok, just stay away from where the people live and you should be fine.

There's nothing racist about his post, just some inconvenient reality. Pointing out inconvenient reality is not racism.

Racism denial is a form of racism.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What does any of this have to do with a twelve year old being shot after a 2 second encounter with police still in their cruiser?

Nothing. I personally attach no racism to what happened here.

 

[Trausti]

There's nothing racist about his post, just some inconvenient reality. Pointing out inconvenient reality is not racism.

Racism denial is a form of racism.

And name calling is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy. If you cannot refute his post on evidence, just admit it.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

There's good evidence that there is still a bit of unconscious racism involved with employment and promotion decisions by managers, thus contributing to their poverty. It could also be said that past racism caused less wealth/assets to be accumulated by black families (lowering inheritances and the like) - which would be a contributing factor in some cases of lower SES.

This is the first time I've heard the first claim.


I agree with the second but this is the effects of past racism, not current racism. Anti-discrimination measures will do nothing about it. Since I'm much more interested in how to fix it than in placing blame the current cause is what I care about.

- - - Updated - - -

Now, how many more blacks die at the hands of police? About 3 per million individuals per year for blacks and 1 per million per year for whites, a 3 to 1 rate compared to whites. Now remember that violence crime arrest ratio? Matches almost exactly.

Is the some sort of logical connection here that is unexplained? What does this latter ratio have to do with former ratio?

What he's showing is that black or white, your odds of being shot by the police if you are a violent criminal are about equal.

- - - Updated - - -

Loren, you really don't read what you type do you?

So you have no idea of how to rebut what I said?

What was said

Axulus,

In all this data that you are driven by, are there any surveys of black citizens who have had encounters with the police and what those citizens think about those encounters.

Such a study would not produce good data. How an encounter with the police turns out is greatly colored by how you expect it to go.

now for the rebuttal

Such a study would not produce good data. How an encounter with the police turns out is greatly colored by how the police expect it to go.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What does any of this have to do with a twelve year old being shot after a 2 second encounter with police still in their cruiser?

One or two or ten incidents are not generalizable about the country as a whole.

A four hundred year history and the numbers YOU site are. You can't say black people are arrested in large numbers in a country with this country's history, with PBA reps bellowing about how it is Obama's fault that policemen are shot, and the article the YOU quoted basing its conclusions on a book that goes out of its way to say don't make broad generalizations on our findings as there are still too many variables to account for and your "fact checkers" then go and do just that.

from the link

But academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey.

This doesn’t support the idea that the police are unfairly discriminating against the black population when they make arrests.

Here is what the academics have noted

Even though both indicators [the UCR and the NCVS] show minorities as offenders in disproportionate numbers, there are well known weaknesses with both measures which means one must use extreme caution when interpreting these figures.

I already admitted there is room for improvement in how police departments across the country interact with the citizens, and that there is additional reason to pay attention to how it interacts with the black community. This does not mean that every concern or statement the black community makes is legitimate.

You have not answered the question. And it appears you won't.

 

[Underseer]

One or two or ten incidents are not generalizable about the country as a whole.

A four hundred year history and the numbers YOU site are. You can't say black people are arrested in large numbers in a country with this country's history, with PBA reps bellowing about how it is Obama's fault that policemen are shot, and the article the YOU quoted basing its conclusions on a book that goes out of its way to say don't make broad generalizations on our findings as there are still too many variables to account for and your "fact checkers" then go and do just that.

from the link

But academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey.

This doesn’t support the idea that the police are unfairly discriminating against the black population when they make arrests.

Here is what the academics have noted

Even though both indicators [the UCR and the NCVS] show minorities as offenders in disproportionate numbers, there are well known weaknesses with both measures which means one must use extreme caution when interpreting these figures.

I already admitted there is room for improvement in how police departments across the country interact with the citizens, and that there is additional reason to pay attention to how it interacts with the black community. This does not mean that every concern or statement the black community makes is legitimate.

You have not answered the question. And it appears you won't.

Yeah, the conviction rates pretty much prove that racism is part of the system. To argue against that, the politically incorrect need to argue that African Americans are less likely to be charged with crimes they didn't commit and thus mostly only guilty African-Americans are asked to defend themselves in court.

These are obviously weak arguments presented by the politically incorrect in a desperate attempt to preserve the injustice of the current system. They do things like this because they believe that whites are inferior and won't be able to compete if the playing field were level. It's the soft bigotry of low expectations, to borrow a phrase.

Oh, and "You must spread some reputation around before giving it to AthenaAwakened again."

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Racism denial is a form of racism.

Denying you are a witch is a form of witchcraft. This logic is straight out of Salem.

 

[Underseer]

Racism denial is a form of racism.

Denying you are a witch is a form of witchcraft. This logic is straight out of Salem.

Bad analogy. Every single person who denied practicing witchcraft was 100% correct.

All he is saying is that denial alone does not prove that someone isn't racist, since virtually all racists deny being racist.

 

[Trausti]

Denying you are a witch is a form of witchcraft. This logic is straight out of Salem.

Bad analogy. Every single person who denied practicing witchcraft was 100% correct.

All he is saying is that denial alone does not prove that someone isn't racist, since virtually all racists deny being racist.

Nor does it prove that someone is. But whether someone is or isn't doesn't change facts or reality. It seems that the charge of "racist" is meant to shut down discussion when someone gets uncomfortable with a topic. Ironic to see such behavior on a supposed "Freethought" board.

 

[Warpoet]

Pigs look reasonable too,

Huh?

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with what several others have said: your response to the OP was not fair and reinforces the accusation made by conservatives that all liberals are knee-jerk PC automatons who immediately shut down any discussion about these issues with accusations of racism. It's possible Axulus is a racist -- certainly plenty of others who bring this subject up for discussion are -- but that's not evident here. He found a mainstream source that is drawing primarily off of FBI statistics and published academic research.

Simply brushing it aside and labeling the person who calls it to the forum's attention a racist is not an intellectually honest response. And this is coming from someone who for several years here has dealt with closet bigots trying to throw statistics around in order to demonize a certain subset of the population. Even if that's what's happening here, there's a way to deal with it, but the way that you responded is not it.

 

[Davka]

Denying you are a witch is a form of witchcraft. This logic is straight out of Salem.

Bad analogy. Every single person who denied practicing witchcraft was 100% correct.

All he is saying is that denial alone does not prove that someone isn't racist, since virtually all racists deny being racist.

Actually, I'm saying that people who deny that racism is a major problem in today's America are either living in a cave or are, at the very least, passive racists.

- - - Updated - - -

Racism denial is a form of racism.

And name calling is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy. If you cannot refute his post on evidence, just admit it.

His OP is unsupported by the evidence he himself provided. See under: pig wrestling.

 

[Toni]

Thank God that a British tv station is able to finally fact check FBI data previously discussed at length on this forum and otherwise! Knowing the integrity and insightful analysis that is known world wide to never, ever stray into sensationalism of British popular media, I feel so much better. I mean, just look at the title of the FactCheck piece: "Do black Americans commit more crime?" Easy to see that there is no premise that blacks are killed by police because blacks are more guilty than any other race on the surface of the planet!

Racism in the US is officially not a problem. Blacks are.

 

[George S]

Is the some sort of logical connection here that is unexplained? What does this latter ratio have to do with former ratio?

If a group is involved in ~39% of the violent crime arrests in the country, is it any surprise that this group suffers ~32% of the deaths at the hands of police (link and link)? Is it really that difficult to understand? The ratio I put forth was just another way to present that same data. Not only that, but, according to Athena, the black community mistrusts the police. Mightn't that increase the odds of hostility and resistance with encounters with police for any given encounter (a significant factor in whether or not force is used by the police), further undermining the claims of racism?

Straightforward reasoning using Baye's Theorem requires the prior probability. What would the statistic be absent racism. Is it different under the assumption of racism.

There is human unconscious reasoning. We cannot help it. It is in our nature -- kin selection.

One instant evaluation of a person is: Does he or she look like kin.

Around the world it is family first. Hatfields vs. McCoys -- revenge vendetta. What do you want to do to someone who killed your son. Yeah, everybody does.

In the human Utopia we would treat all other humans as kin. Love your neighbor (who are your extended family) as yourself. Then realize all humans everywhere are you neighbor in that Utopia. The motto is: Leave an environment and society where all human children find an environment and society where it is a good place to live both as a child and adult. If history be our guide that Utopia won't happen.

Policemen should be kin! When that is the case the police are respected: kin are on my side. The police are like me.

(Inconvenient?) truth: People like people like themselves. They (instinctively -- get over it) do not trust people not like themselves.

I'm white and I'm afraid of the police myself. Not especially black policemen. I have witnessed white-on-white police abuse of power.

I've been in the military. In the military you feel kinship with your brothers in arms...as close as the closest kin. The police are no longer a neighborhood patrol but a quasi-military. This contributes to the problem.

 

[Deepak]

Quasi-military?

You mean those guys who ride around in MRAPs, wear all the tacticool gear, and refer to people as 'civilians'?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Denying you are a witch is a form of witchcraft. This logic is straight out of Salem.

Bad analogy. Every single person who denied practicing witchcraft was 100% correct.

All he is saying is that denial alone does not prove that someone isn't racist, since virtually all racists deny being racist.

It follows a similar pattern. How is he supposed to refute or deny the allegation of racism, if refutation and denial of that allegation is to be taken as evidence of its truth?

Racism is a pretty serious charge in today's society, and folks like Davka here like to throw it around instead of actually challenging anything the OP said or any of the data it pointed to.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

His OP is unsupported by the evidence he himself provided. See under: pig wrestling.

I don't think anybody here believes that you actually read anything he linked to.

Perhaps we would take you more seriously if you pointed out how his OP is unsupported by the evidence he presented, instead of merely engaging in slander.

 

[Davka]

His OP is unsupported by the evidence he himself provided. See under: pig wrestling.

I don't think anybody here believes that you actually read anything he linked to.

Perhaps we would take you more seriously if you pointed out how his OP is unsupported by the evidence he presented, instead of merely engaging in slander.

I doubt it. Even if I linked to solid evidence that all white police who kill unarmed blacks are racist shits, the racists here would refuse to see it. When i saw this thread, I thought "what fun, yet another desperate attempt to justify racism." And that's really all it is.

Susannah Locke: There’s evidence that when people stick with wrong facts, it isn't just stubbornness — but actually some sort of brain glitch. Why is it so difficult to change people’s minds?

Stephan Lewandowsky: It’s not an easy task to update people’s memories. That’s a very clear result that even happens with completely innocuous items. It's a fundamental problem for our cognitive apparatus to update what’s in our head.

What people have suggested — and what I think is going on — is that what people remember is the information, and then they attach a tag, "Oh no it’s not." And the problem is that often this tag can be forgotten. So you remember the misinformation, but not the fact that it’s false.

Excerpt from How to debunk false beliefs without having it backfire.
​

If we were face-to-face, I might try some of the techniques in this article. But online? Why bother - people will simply skip over the parts of any post their brains automatically classify as "untrue."

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I doubt it. Even if I linked to solid evidence that all white police who kill unarmed blacks are racist shits, the racists here would refuse to see it. When i saw this thread, I thought "what fun, yet another desperate attempt to justify racism." And that's really all it is.

Yes, I don't doubt that you thought that. And you didn't look any further before declaring the OP a racist, did you? At least one person is being prejudiced here, that much I can say with confidence.