The Problem With Anti-Abortion People

[Bronzeage]

If you have money and contacts, you can do a lot of things, but that's not relevant at this point in the discussion.

Showing that someone got an abortion doesn't prove there wasn't an issue.

Could you express this thought without the use of a double negative?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Showing that someone got an abortion doesn't prove there wasn't an issue.

Could you express this thought without the use of a double negative?

You used one person getting an abortion as an indication that the old rape/incest only abortion laws were ineffective, anyone could get an abortion by simply claiming rape.

 

[Bronzeage]

Could you express this thought without the use of a double negative?

You used one person getting an abortion as an indication that the old rape/incest only abortion laws were ineffective, anyone could get an abortion by simply claiming rape.

That's the whole point. The R&I exclusion made abortion laws ineffective, but it was the only way to get middle class support for them. The fact was, nobody had to actually claim rape, because no one was asking.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Or maybe anti-abortion people really view abortion as murder. Argue about rights and viability all you like, but an abortion ends a human life. No need to ascribe a malicious intent to people who see it that way. Anyway, yeah, more contraception is probably the better way to go in reducing the abortion rate.

It can't be that - you're assuming the "other side" actually might have what might be seen as a good intent. Everyone knows the only reason anyone is ever pro-life is a sinister desire to control female sexuality.

 

[Bronzeage]

Or maybe anti-abortion people really view abortion as murder. Argue about rights and viability all you like, but an abortion ends a human life. No need to ascribe a malicious intent to people who see it that way. Anyway, yeah, more contraception is probably the better way to go in reducing the abortion rate.

It can't be that - you're assuming the "other side" actually might have what might be seen as a good intent. Everyone knows the only reason anyone is ever pro-life is a sinister desire to control female sexuality.

It would help if Pro-Lifers spent more time and energy working to prevent the kind of pregnancies which might be ended by abortion, than trying to prevent abortions after the fact.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

It can't be that - you're assuming the "other side" actually might have what might be seen as a good intent. Everyone knows the only reason anyone is ever pro-life is a sinister desire to control female sexuality.

It would help if Pro-Lifers spent more time and energy working to prevent the kind of pregnancies which might be ended by abortion, than trying to prevent abortions after the fact.

In order to fight against both global warming and air pollution, It would help if Greenpeace and other organizations stopped fighting against nuclear energy and began promoting it, but the fact that they keep doing it does not provide good evidence that they aren't trying to fight against global worming or air pollution. They're just not being rational about it, because they have some irrational beliefs about nuclear energy.

In my experience (by talking to them, reading their posts, etc.), many (most) people who want to either ban abortion or keep it banned (depending on the place) also have some related irrational beliefs, like the belief that sex out of wedlock is also always immoral and that making contraception available implicitly condones such immoral behaviors, bring moral confusion, and result in more immoral sex, or the belief that more sex using contraception will in the end likely result in more abortions (due to failure of contraceptives), and instead, only abstinence should be promoted.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Or maybe anti-abortion people really view abortion as murder. Argue about rights and viability all you like, but an abortion ends a human life. No need to ascribe a malicious intent to people who see it that way. Anyway, yeah, more contraception is probably the better way to go in reducing the abortion rate.

It can't be that - you're assuming the "other side" actually might have what might be seen as a good intent. Everyone knows the only reason anyone is ever pro-life is a sinister desire to control female sexuality.

But why might that be seen a good intent? (well, it would be seen like that by some people for sure, but why would that be proper?)
Do you mean that they try to do what they believe is morally obligatory, praiseworthy, etc.?
If so, sure, some of them do believe that by banning abortion, they're banning a gravely immoral behavior, and it's just to ban it and punish it as they propose. But for that matter, many people believe that by banning blasphemy, they're banning a gravely immoral behavior, and it's just (perhaps obligatory, or at least praiseworthy) to ban it and punish it as they propose (e.g., imposing the death penalty or lashes, imprisonment, etc). But I'm not inclined to say that's what one usually calls "good intent", even if it's the intent to do what they believe is good/obligatory, etc.

That said, I do think that anti-abortion activists often believe in the moral propriety of their cause.

 

[Tigers!]

It would help if Pro-Lifers spent more time and energy working to prevent the kind of pregnancies which might be ended by abortion, than trying to prevent abortions after the fact.

Since any kind of pregnancy can be ended by abortion the time/energy by default will be spend trying to prevent abortions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It would help if Pro-Lifers spent more time and energy working to prevent the kind of pregnancies which might be ended by abortion, than trying to prevent abortions after the fact.

Since any kind of pregnancy can be ended by abortion the time/energy by default will be spend trying to prevent abortions.

The point is contraceptive efforts reduce abortions more than their efforts do.

It's just contraceptive efforts don't make victims of non-reproductive sex and that's what they truly want.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Or maybe anti-abortion people really view abortion as murder.

Still doesn't explain why they also oppose sex education and contraception.

Also doesn't explain why they are pro-war, pro death penalty and don't protest police use of force against unarmed suspects. This is the difference between being "pro life" and merely "anti-abortion." There are certain forms of murder they're okay with, abortion just isn't one of them.

 

[Trausti]

Or maybe anti-abortion people really view abortion as murder.

Still doesn't explain why they also oppose sex education and contraception.

Also doesn't explain why they are pro-war, pro death penalty and don't protest police use of force against unarmed suspects. This is the difference between being "pro life" and merely "anti-abortion." There are certain forms of murder they're okay with, abortion just isn't one of them.

So all people who may feel that abortion is murder also hold all these other viewpoints; or is this just an effort to smear folks to avoid addressing their concern?

 

[ZiprHead]

What is their concern so we can address it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Still doesn't explain why they also oppose sex education and contraception.

Also doesn't explain why they are pro-war, pro death penalty and don't protest police use of force against unarmed suspects. This is the difference between being "pro life" and merely "anti-abortion." There are certain forms of murder they're okay with, abortion just isn't one of them.

So all people who may feel that abortion is murder also hold all these other viewpoints; or is this just an effort to smear folks to avoid addressing their concern?

Put it this way: I have never encountered a person who claimed to be "pro life" who ALSO opposed expanded military spending. Could be they were opposed to it and weren't being honest with me when asked... but then, the same people who voted for Trump because he was pro-life don't seem to take issue with his stance on military spending or his support on police use of force.

Anti-abortion is a legitimate stance, IMO. But "all life is sacred" isn't a legitimate basis for that stance. "Babies are innocent and don't deserve to die (yet)" is perfectly legitimate, but obviously it's not as convincing as the more absolute case, so there's that.

 

[Lion IRC]

I wonder about the "We just want to save lives" argument when pro-life advocates excuse abortions in case of rape and incest.

When pro-lifers offer that compromise, they already know that the abortion-on-demand crowd will NEVER agree to it.

All those crocodile tears shed for rape victims who supposedly need the 'right' to murder their unborn baby. But rape pregnancy abortions are a minuscule percentage of the hundreds of thousands of routine abortions carried out in America.

No abortion lobbyist is ever going to agree to any ban on abortion as part of a compromise deal to allow an exemption for rape pregnancies. And the rape pregnancy cannard is disingenuous hypocrisy. As far as they are concerned no woman should ever have to 'ask' permission for an abortion.

 

[Elixir]

I have never encountered a person who claimed to be "pro life" who ALSO opposed expanded military spending.

Gotta keep the supply of gun-fodder flowing, if the industrial-military honchos are to keep enriching themselves!
What bothers me about the anti-choice people is their disregard for the born.
And one other thing - their rants against some imaginary "pro-abortion" crowd. Is anyone here "pro-abortion" (I mean in cases other than Mary Anne MacLeod Trump)? Does anyone here KNOW anyone who is "pro-abortion"? Have ANY of you who use the phrase "pro abortion" ever suffered the pain of losing a fetus? If not, then shut the fuck up and mind your own business!

My wife suffered three ectopic pregnancies, any one of which would almost certainly have killed her had they not been halted. Three VERY tough decisions, and none to which we would have welcomed participation by nosy religious zealots. I have since been roundly excoriated for "thwarting god's will" when I related these things on a religious forum, and nothing has ever done more to earn my contempt for religious nutbars, their superstitious religions, and the false gods they pretend to worship.

 

[Lion IRC]

...Does anyone here KNOW anyone who is "pro-abortion"?

Yes. I do.

...Have ANY of you who use the phrase "pro abortion" ever suffered the pain of losing a fetus?

The pain of losing a fetus. Sounds horrible.


FYI - this woman is about to lose a fetus. (And those men aren't consoling her by the way.)

...If not, then shut the fuck up and mind your own business!

Mind your own business?
Since when must I stay out of someone else's business?
Imagine if I were to say to an unmarried mother that her financial hardship is none of my business.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Or maybe anti-abortion people really view abortion as murder.

Still doesn't explain why they also oppose sex education and contraception.

Also doesn't explain why they are pro-war, pro death penalty and don't protest police use of force against unarmed suspects. This is the difference between being "pro life" and merely "anti-abortion." There are certain forms of murder they're okay with, abortion just isn't one of them.

Last time I checked, it wasn't a felony to be a fetus.

 

[credoconsolans]

I disagree. It's not so much about persecuting women as making non-reproductive sex dangerous. The persecution is a means to an end, not the objective.

It's about an even mix of both. It's the same persecution we see in the bathrooms and transgender laws. The persecution is not just a means to an end, it is and end in itself. It validates the power over other people's life, a way to say, "You may not agree with us, but we can make you act as if you do."

Yep.

In a nutshell.

Anti-choicers don't want women to have privacy when they have sex.

Anti-choicer: Women shouldn't be allowed to murder (abort) innocent babies (fetuses) just because they're inconvenient!

Me: How would you know why a woman is getting an abortion?

Anti-choicer [spluttering, trying to come up with a justifiable way to butt into a women's business/invade her privacy to force her to reveal why they're getting an abortion]

Me: So you want to know so you can pass judgement on them?

Anti-choicer [no answer]

- - - Updated - - -

...If not, then shut the fuck up and mind your own business!

Mind your own business?
Since when must I stay out of someone else's business?
Imagine if I were to say to an unmarried mother that her financial hardship is none of my business.

What makes you think all unmarried mothers are welfare cases?

 

[Elixir]

Last time I checked, it wasn't a felony to be a fetus.

... or even a blastocyst! (Unless it is inside of a poor person, or one that isn't sufficiently white.)

Guess it's just too hard to get eyewitness testimony from an unrecognizable pinpoint-sized blob of protoplasm... pity. If only we could do THAT, we could elevate the status of microscopic, unrecognizable blobs of protoplasm to the same as (or greater than, in the case of anti-choice nazis) that of actual living, breathing humans.

 

[Elixir]

..Does anyone here KNOW anyone who is "pro-abortion"?

Yes. I do.

Frankly, I don't believe you. I know several women who have had abortions, and none who didn't hate making that choice. You must think it's fun for them, in your religious ignorance.