The promise of Christian Nationalism

[Politesse]

I realize that you have other issues and agendas.

Where "other issues and agendas" really just means... the one major Biden policy that I object to?

 

[ZiprHead]

I think he is.

After a fashion, yes. And that contradicts nothing I said. But I do reject personal responsibility for the failure of his campaign. All this finger-wagging is useless, and counterproductive.

Then you might consider stopping doing that.

 

[Politesse]

I think he is.

After a fashion, yes. And that contradicts nothing I said. But I do reject personal responsibility for the failure of his campaign. All this finger-wagging is useless, and counterproductive.

Then you might consider stopping doing that.

??

Are you trying to say that opposing the Gaza genocide is finger-wagging? Like, I'm just too moralistic about thousands of dead children purposefully murdered for their parents' faiths?

Our country deserves to fall.

 

[Jarhyn]

Politesse, I will say it again, the current state of the world, corrupted as it is with religion, has opened a political reality that makes it impossible for the leader of a Christian nation to "betray" the state of Isreal without being put on a political pike.

Do you think Islamic folks can or should just ignore that reality, the reality that so many idiots believing something so stupid could cause such a bad consequence for anyone standing against the bad faith of Isreal?

The more mandate against that the better. It's swallowing a quart of bile. A quart and a half.

It's disgusting, but that doesn't change reality that that one book of Revelation, combined with the metastasis of Christianity, prevents leaders of such countries from actually asserting themselves against the actions of Isreal.

 

[Politesse]

Politesse, I will say it again, the current state of the world, corrupted as it is with religion, has opened a political reality that makes it impossible for the leader of a Christian nation to "betray" the state of Isreal without being put on a political pike.

I observed the same thing at the head of this thread, and everyone got mad at me.

But it does not matter who you vote for in November, with respect to this issue. We will have a Christian and a Nationalist in the White House in January either way, and one willing to kill a great many people on the basis of our national loyalty to that faith and to the world political system that it built. It doesn't make a lick of difference to our victims whether we or our head of state "feel bad about" waging bloody holy war across the planet, or whether anyone "really believes" in the institutions whose interests we collectively serve. Good Christians and Bad Christians wage war with the same bullets, and Lockheed Martin manufactures them without principle.

 

[Jarhyn]

Politesse, I will say it again, the current state of the world, corrupted as it is with religion, has opened a political reality that makes it impossible for the leader of a Christian nation to "betray" the state of Isreal without being put on a political pike.

I observed the same thing at the head of this thread, and everyone got mad at me.

But my point is, I trust Islamic folks to be smart enough to dislike that but observe the truth of it and swallow the bile to do the hard, but right thing for the many millions of people here. We can at best reduce our support of Isreal, and even that is a very thin stretch.

Biden is a good president because he doesn't do that. He is trying to win an election because he is doing the things that keep that bomb from exploding. He, and every other Democrat president, (and the Republicans, but it's going to be nigh impossible making them push the button on the hot potato at all), are "doing their best to win an election" in such a Christian-heavy nation by not doing that.

I think Islamic folks should be expected to be able to observe that and vote accordingly because the GOP sucks.

Everyone in the US who isn't a wealthy white Christian male psychopath is in trouble, and Biden is the alternative to that.

You simultaneously say he should be trying to win an election when the things you criticize him for not doing are things you have to not do to win a US election.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We will have a Christian and a Nationalist in the White House in January either way,

But one is not a christian nationalist.

 

[TomC]

But my point is, I trust Islamic folks to be smart enough to dislike that but observe the truth of it and swallow the bile to do the hard, but right thing for the many millions of people here. We can at best reduce our support of Isreal, and even that is a very thin stretch.

I wish I shared your confidence that Islamic folks are that much smarter than Usonian folks overall, but I don't.

Also my opinion on US support for Israel has changed a great deal since last fall. I used to favor cutting off military aid. In light of recent events I think we should boost it.
Whatever else Israel is, it's the sole representative of multi-ethnic, secular democracy in the region.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

But my point is, I trust Islamic folks to be smart enough to dislike that but observe the truth of it and swallow the bile to do the hard, but right thing for the many millions of people here. We can at best reduce our support of Isreal, and even that is a very thin stretch.

I wish I shared your confidence that Islamic folks are that much smarter than Usonian folks overall, but I don't.

Also my opinion on US support for Israel has changed a great deal since last fall. I used to favor cutting off military aid. In light of recent events I think we should boost it.
Whatever else Israel is, it's the sole representative of multi-ethnic, secular democracy in the region.
Tom

They are neither multiethnic nor secular. They are a Eugenicist apartheid state.

They are multiethnic only insofar as SA was multiethnic under that Apartheid regime.

 

[TomC]

They are neither multiethnic nor secular. They are a Eugenicist apartheid state.

They are multiethnic only insofar as SA was multiethnic under that Apartheid regime.

That's bullshit.
You can look up the demographics on Wikipedia like I did if you want to.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

But my point is, I trust Islamic folks to be smart enough to dislike that but observe the truth of it and swallow the bile to do the hard, but right thing for the many millions of people here. We can at best reduce our support of Isreal, and even that is a very thin stretch.

I wish I shared your confidence that Islamic folks are that much smarter than Usonian folks overall, but I don't.

Also my opinion on US support for Israel has changed a great deal since last fall. I used to favor cutting off military aid. In light of recent events I think we should boost it.
Whatever else Israel is, it's the sole representative of multi-ethnic, secular democracy in the region.
Tom

They killed twenty thousand mostly innocent people in a matter of months, hitting their supposed targets so infrequently it seems like random chance would have been more effective.

You've never actually seen the disembodied head of child, I imagine? It's not pretty. They don't just stay in pristine head shape with a bit of romantic gore at the bottom like in the movies, they fall half to pieces. I've said this all through the two generational wars, and I'll say it all through this one: if the price of American "freedom" is unthinking cruelty to the rest of the world, why should anyone want us to be free?

 

[TomC]

They killed twenty thousand mostly innocent people in a matter of months.

Hamas killed those people.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

But my point is, I trust Islamic folks to be smart enough to dislike that but observe the truth of it and swallow the bile to do the hard, but right thing for the many millions of people here. We can at best reduce our support of Isreal, and even that is a very thin stretch.

I wish I shared your confidence that Islamic folks are that much smarter than Usonian folks overall, but I don't.

Also my opinion on US support for Israel has changed a great deal since last fall. I used to favor cutting off military aid. In light of recent events I think we should boost it.
Whatever else Israel is, it's the sole representative of multi-ethnic, secular democracy in the region.
Tom

They killed twenty thousand mostly innocent people in a matter of months.

Yes they did. That is what makes voting for Biden drinking a quart of bile. Doesn't make it any less right given the fact that the alternative is a bloody civil war that will lead to the deaths of millions of innocent people.

You've never actually seen the disembodied head of child, I imagine?

It's horrific, but empowering a psychopath who will do as much here to me, you, and every Islamic person is a reason to swallow my bile, bide my time, and do something distasteful but right, namely voting for someone who is letting it continue rather than metastasizing that chaos and evil here.

I won't discuss the horrific things I've seen, before, during, or after my service.

It's not pretty.

Nope. It isn't.

They don't just stay in pristine head shape with a bit of romantic gore at the bottom like in the movies, they fall half to pieces.

I'm sure they don't.

I've said this all through the two generational wars, and I'll say it all through this one: if the price of your "freedom" is unthinking cruelty to the rest of the world, why should anyone want you to be free?

It's not unthinking cruelty. This isn't unthinking cruelty on behalf of the US, at least.

I wouldn't choose this situation for anyone.

The thing is, we are already at a point where we need to apply Triage.

The price of saving anyone is to triage, and some will die in triage. Some will be left to die waiting to even be seen when triaging.

Still, that is the reality. It is not unthinking. It's hard to accept something will lead to the deliberate decision to let people die, but medical science and tradition indicates this is sometimes a requirement for the best outcome.

Blame the Christianity, blame the Israelis, blame whoever you want, except don't blame Biden because he's as much a hostage of the state of reality as the rest of us with respect to his degrees of freedom.

 

[TomC]

Blame the Christianity, blame the Israelis, blame whoever you want, but don't blame Biden because he's as much a hostage of the state of reality as the rest of us.

You managed to come up with a list that includes Christianity and Biden, but not Islam or Hamas?
Seriously?
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Blame the Christianity, blame the Israelis, blame whoever you want, but don't blame Biden because he's as much a hostage of the state of reality as the rest of us.

You managed to come up with a list that includes Christianity and Biden, but not Islam or Hamas?
Seriously?
Tom

The difference is, I am not advocating voting for Hamas. You are advocating voting to support the genocide you find most palatable.

How can you, with a straight face, advocate for "voting for the best of two bad options" while greenlighting mass murder of anyone who so much as lives in the same country as someone you hate? You think your preferred victims didn't "vote for the best of the bad options" they were presented with? Well, no they didn't. Because they were toddlers. But they certainly were not given any more of an option.

What is worse, to not have a choice, or to have a choice and use that choice to actively support the commission of atrocities?

 

[Jarhyn]

Blame the Christianity, blame the Israelis, blame whoever you want, but don't blame Biden because he's as much a hostage of the state of reality as the rest of us.

You managed to come up with a list that includes Christianity and Biden, but not Islam or Hamas?
Seriously?
Tom

Hamas is a gross consequence of not including Palestinian people. It was an enemy created and perpetuated by consistent failure of humanitarian principles.

Hamas, and the desire to destroy Israel, could have entirely been eliminated by neighbourly compassion, and helping to build and educate Gaza.

It would have taken work, and peace would not have happened overnight, but it would have happened, and could have united the middle east.

Instead, Israeli policy created Hamas.

Hamas is a part of the problem that Israel created so when you say Blame Hamas, I do... by also blaming the Israelis, because Hamas is a creation and perpetuated thing of Israeli design and make.

Israel can, yet again, do something. They could say "shit, we're sorry" and rebuild Gaza for the Palestinians, rebuild schools, rebuild the hospitals, the roads....

Again, peace wouldn't happen overnight, but with enough effort, mostly Israeli because the current regime of Israel is responsible for a lot of the issues here.

They could kill Hamas with love and effort and aid and education.

The US can't do that. The US could switch to offering Israel aid for those specific purposes only, probably? That could be an effective path forward?

But the fact is, if I am to blame Hamas, this just puts more blame on Israel.

 

[TomC]

You are advocating voting to support the genocide you find most palatable.

Bullshit.
Hamas is the group advocating ethnic cleansing, nobody is trying genocide.

If folks like you didn't confuse Israeli attempts at self preservation for genocide we might be able to get towards peace.
But y'all don't.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

These "moderate Democrats" wouldn't even find their own arguments convincing, if the exact same words were coming out of Karl Rove's mouth...

...again...

... but I'm supposed to find the argument so much more convincing now because it is once again coming from the mouth of a Blue instead of a Red?

Not sorry to say no, I didn't drink the koolaid when it was Afghanistan and Iraq the "moderates" were colluding with the crazies over, and the twenty years of purposeless horror and violence that ensued in no wise convinced me that I was wrong to oppose those wars. You all suddenly turned bashful about your own convictions once you finally, finally perceived the cost. Biden included. He lies routinely about his role in the authorization of the war in Afghanistan, an easily discoverable lie motivated by shame. But unlike Joe Biden, I don't demand the thousands of people to help me slowly learn the lesson that aggressive wars of "defense" are fucking stupid.

 

[TomC]

Hamas is a gross consequence of not including Palestinian people. It was an enemy created and perpetuated by consistent failure of humanitarian principles.

Do you realize that 20% of Israelis are "Muslim Arabs"?
That the Palestinian refugees were mostly Muslim Arabs fleeing from the military attacks from Israel's Muslim neighbors?
That Israel is the result of anti-jewish violence across the Christian and Muslim world?

Israel is the consequence of continuing the anti-jewish bigotry of yore. So is Hamas.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Not sorry to say no, I didn't drink the koolaid when it was Afghanistan and Iraq the "moderates" were colluding with the crazies over,

Neither did I. I was out in the streets carrying "stop the war" signs and helping with "write your representative a letter" programs.

As a small business owner in a staunchly Republican community I can tell you one thing. It cost me a ton of money. Bunches of people didn't want to do business with me.

And having a business just a couple of blocks from the county courthouse, very able to make and store placards for the purpose, nobody had any doubt about my opinions.
Oh yeah. I paid a lot for expressing my opinion on the subject of peace.
Tom

ETA ~ It's a small town. And I'm kinda mouthy. I'm pretty well known.
Gay. Atheist. Kinda socialist. Adding "peacenik" made me quite the quintessential Commie Pinko Fag. ~