The religion of "no beginning".

[4321lynx]

Excellent. I think this is the crucial point that untermensche fails to understand...

What specifically do you think I am missing?

Are you able to explain exactly what you are talking about here?

Why are you making tangential comments like this and not dealing with anything directly? My points have no relation to any paradox especially Achilles and the tortoise.

Can you traverse an infinite line? This is not talking about a race of any kind. It is just asking about what can be done physically with infinities that allegedly stretch an infinite length.

Is it possible for infinity to be expressed in any way?

Is it possible for infinity to exist in the real world?

It can't even exist in the conceptual world of mathematics. It is only defined. It is never expressed in any sense. It can never be expressed?

What the hell are you talking about?

Well, I guess it must be the other way round -- the world possibly exists IN infinity. I mean the world, the universe, the cosmos, that whole trinity could all end and infinity could just go on and on and on and.....etc ..... a whole lot of nothing in infinite progression. But I grant you that whole lot of nothing should have had a beginning, according to our poor human logic applied in our poor human way, by our poor human brains, that created our poor human minds.

 

[DBT]

Could things have existed infinitely?

That's not the question. My question being; do you believe that there was a First Cause?

It is the question of this thread.

Could things have existed infinitely? Is that possible? If you think it is demonstrate it.

That is the question this thread is asking.

It is not asking all possible questions.

Can you answer or will you dodge it forever?

But I asked you a direct question, a question that is relevant to the topic of this thread. It is you who is avoiding my question.

My question to you being; do you believe that there was a First Cause?

Now can you answer the question or not?

 

[untermensche]

It is the question of this thread.

Could things have existed infinitely? Is that possible? If you think it is demonstrate it.

That is the question this thread is asking.

It is not asking all possible questions.

Can you answer or will you dodge it forever?

But I asked you a direct question, a question that is relevant to the topic of this thread. It is you who is avoiding my question.

My question to you being; do you believe that there was a First Cause?

Now can you answer the question or not?

This thread is asking a question you are avoiding with all your might.

Why are you dodging and distracting with this?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Why do you enter this thread and completely avoid the question inherent to it?

That is insanity.

Or a cheap dodge proving you are unworthy of any consideration.

Answer my question and we can begin to address your question. It is simple logic that if a thing could not have existed forever it must have had a beginning. But you are jumping ahead and not answering the important question which must be addressed first.

Is it possible to traverse an infinite line? Is it possible the past was infinite? Is it possible for something to have "always existed"?

That is what you must at least attempt to answer before demanding answers to your distractions.

 

[untermensche]

Well, I guess it must be the other way round -- the world possibly exists IN infinity....

Meaningless babble.

Impossible to rationally conclude from finite evidence that infinite more exists.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Excellent. I think this is the crucial point that untermensche fails to understand...

What specifically do you think I am missing?

Are you able to explain exactly what you are talking about here?

Why are you making tangential comments like this and not dealing with anything directly? My points have no relation to any paradox especially Achilles and the tortoise.

Can you traverse an infinite line? This is not talking about a race of any kind. It is just asking about what can be done physically with infinities that allegedly stretch an infinite length.

Is it possible for infinity to be expressed in any way?

Is it possible for infinity to exist in the real world?

It can't even exist in the conceptual world of mathematics. It is only defined. It is never expressed in any sense. It can never be expressed?

What the hell are you talking about?

Well, I guess it must be the other way round -- the world possibly exists IN infinity. I mean the world, the universe, the cosmos, that whole trinity could all end and infinity could just go on and on and on and.....etc ..... a whole lot of nothing in infinite progression. But I grant you that whole lot of nothing should have had a beginning, according to our poor human logic applied in our poor human way, by our poor human brains, that created our poor human minds.

My own mind certainly doesn't seem to require a beginning to every thing. I feel very good about reality itself, for example, having no beginning at all. In fact, I feel bad about the opposite idea of reality having a beginning. It just feels wrong.

And I don't think it would be just me either.
EB

 

[4321lynx]

Well, I guess it must be the other way round -- the world possibly exists IN infinity. I mean the world, the universe, the cosmos, that whole trinity could all end and infinity could just go on and on and on and.....etc ..... a whole lot of nothing in infinite progression. But I grant you that whole lot of nothing should have had a beginning, according to our poor human logic applied in our poor human way, by our poor human brains, that created our poor human minds.

My own mind certainly doesn't seem to require a beginning to every thing. I feel very good about reality itself, for example, having no beginning at all. In fact, I feel bad about the opposite idea of reality having a beginning. It just feels wrong.

And I don't think it would be just me either.
EB

Whatever floats your boat. No-one will prove you right or wrong, not yet for many years, if not for ever. But you say yourself that it's a feeling. Religion, belief in any god, and atheism are feelings too. Failure to find proof of existence or nonexistence of the truth of either is not proof that they, or one of them, do not/does not exist.

I think many are just ashamed or afraid to say IDK ---- "I Don't Know".

 

[Speakpigeon]

Well, I guess it must be the other way round -- the world possibly exists IN infinity. I mean the world, the universe, the cosmos, that whole trinity could all end and infinity could just go on and on and on and.....etc ..... a whole lot of nothing in infinite progression. But I grant you that whole lot of nothing should have had a beginning, according to our poor human logic applied in our poor human way, by our poor human brains, that created our poor human minds.

My own mind certainly doesn't seem to require a beginning to every thing. I feel very good about reality itself, for example, having no beginning at all. In fact, I feel bad about the opposite idea of reality having a beginning. It just feels wrong.

And I don't think it would be just me either.
EB

Whatever floats your boat. No-one will prove you right or wrong, not yet for many years, if not for ever. But you say yourself that it's a feeling. Religion, belief in any god, and atheism are feelings too. Failure to find proof of existence or nonexistence of the truth of either is not proof that they, or one of them, do not/does not exist.

I think many are just ashamed or afraid to say IDK ---- "I Don't Know".

Clearly, what I said was as good as saying "I don't know". Or do I need to explain?

Also, I'm definitely a finite being, so it's pretty clear I couldn't prove, even less know, infinity or anything infinite like I know redness or prove that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

And, look again, there's just one guy around here who seems to believe he knows infinity couldn't possibly exist.
EB

 

[untermensche]

My own mind certainly doesn't seem to require a beginning to every thing. I feel very good about reality itself, for example, having no beginning at all. In fact, I feel bad about the opposite idea of reality having a beginning. It just feels wrong.

And I don't think it would be just me either.
EB

Your mind doesn't require anything.

It does not require truth or reason.

But to conclude from the finite that the infinite is possible is irrational nonsense.

One cannot conclude the infinite is possible in any way except as a leap of faith.

 

[Elixir]

This thread has so outlived its usefulness, that soon it can be described as having no beginning.
OTOH, there is nothing that exists that cannot be divided up into chronologies such that any point can be called its beginning.

 

[untermensche]

This thread has so outlived its usefulness, that soon it can be described as having no beginning.

Few have even attempted to address the OP.

The religious always find "reasons" to revert to their religion.

One has to wonder how many other crazy things these believers in "no beginning" believe.

 

[Elixir]

There is nothing that exists that cannot be divided up into chronologies such that any point can be called its beginning.

 

[untermensche]

There is nothing that exists that cannot be divided up into chronologies such that any point can be called its beginning.

And nothing that can be thought of to exist with "no beginning"

If it exists, from the smallest particle to the largest planet it had a beginning.

If it exists it had a beginning.

 

[untermensche]

There is nothing that exists that cannot be divided up into chronologies such that any point can be called its beginning.

How could we say your beginning was when you wrote this?

How is that your beginning?

 

[humbleman]

Whatever floats your boat. No-one will prove you right or wrong, not yet for many years, if not for ever. But you say yourself that it's a feeling. Religion, belief in any god, and atheism are feelings too. Failure to find proof of existence or nonexistence of the truth of either is not proof that they, or one of them, do not/does not exist.

I think many are just ashamed or afraid to say IDK ---- "I Don't Know".

Clearly, what I said was as good as saying "I don't know". Or do I need to explain?

Also, I'm definitely a finite being, so it's pretty clear I couldn't prove, even less know, infinity or anything infinite like I know redness or prove that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

And, look again, there's just one guy around here who seems to believe he knows infinity couldn't possibly exist.
EB

Because you must learn the difference between religion (belief) and physical reality.

With certainty you can say that infinite doesn't exist in the physical universe.

The closer you can get is below



However, even the subjective can be finite:

You have an idea, something others never thought about, there you go, your idea has a beginning.

The only concern I have in this thread is in "its beginning" when it says:

Judaism began as a religion of animal sacrifice. Animals were deliberately killed in service to some god that demanded it. A bloody mess that has been dressed up into something less violent as human civilization has progressed beyond such ignorant superstitions.

What such part of the introduction has to do with the belief of "infinite"?

Lets see, probably a god which seems is eternal? If yes, then the Judaism started with an eternal being, not so with bloody sacrifices. It started with disobedience of the first human, no place for sacrifices. It started with the biblical god killing some animals to cover humans bodies but such was not a religious sacrifice at all.

Lots of ideas about an infinite universe were made in the past. They seem good for the times those were invented but they are just word play and funny representations.

For example, a dude came with the idea that the universe is infinite because its borders are a circle. And, you can try your best and never can say what is the beginning point and what is the end point of that circle, and "proved you" his theory showing a circle he drew in a piece of paper. Today the eternal circles are just a fade.

The thread here is excellent, the guy is making you eat dirt and I have been reading the topic with lots of popcorn and soda. The show is so good that please continue with your fight supporting the infinite, such will be infinitely appreciated.

 

[Kharakov]

There is no way he gives you a straight answer. I'd bet you 1 million dollars.... if I wasn't paranoid about untermensche being a setup to get me to make an exorbitant bet that he'd say or do something stupid.

I am asking a different question. This thread is not about causes.

I will bet you will not ever answer it.

Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

I've crossed plenty of lines.

 

[DBT]

It is the question of this thread.

Could things have existed infinitely? Is that possible? If you think it is demonstrate it.

That is the question this thread is asking.

It is not asking all possible questions.

Can you answer or will you dodge it forever?

But I asked you a direct question, a question that is relevant to the topic of this thread. It is you who is avoiding my question.

My question to you being; do you believe that there was a First Cause?

Now can you answer the question or not?

This thread is asking a question you are avoiding with all your might.

Why are you dodging and distracting with this?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Why do you enter this thread and completely avoid the question inherent to it?

That is insanity.

Or a cheap dodge proving you are unworthy of any consideration.

Answer my question and we can begin to address your question. It is simple logic that if a thing could not have existed forever it must have had a beginning. But you are jumping ahead and not answering the important question which must be addressed first.

Is it possible to traverse an infinite line? Is it possible the past was infinite? Is it possible for something to have "always existed"?

That is what you must at least attempt to answer before demanding answers to your distractions.

Why are you doing the very thing you accuse me of? Avoiding my question while pretending that I am avoiding a question. Do you think that nobody can see through your ruse?


Can you just answer the question - do you believe that there was a First Cause?

 

[untermensche]

This thread is asking a question you are avoiding with all your might.

Why are you dodging and distracting with this?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Why do you enter this thread and completely avoid the question inherent to it?

That is insanity.

Or a cheap dodge proving you are unworthy of any consideration.

Answer my question and we can begin to address your question. It is simple logic that if a thing could not have existed forever it must have had a beginning. But you are jumping ahead and not answering the important question which must be addressed first.

Is it possible to traverse an infinite line? Is it possible the past was infinite? Is it possible for something to have "always existed"?

That is what you must at least attempt to answer before demanding answers to your distractions.

Why are you doing the very thing you accuse me of? Avoiding my question while pretending that I am avoiding a question. Do you think that nobody can see through your ruse?


Can you just answer the question - do you believe that there was a First Cause?

This is not your thread. It is mine and I started it to avoid the nonsense you are trying to pull.

You are dodging this with all your might.

You don't seem to understand that the answer to your question is dependent on mine. And no need to be all dramatic and call something "First Cause". If something has a beginning it has a cause to that beginning.

And if something MUST have a beginning it obviously has one.

Is it possible the past was infinite? Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

Address that and you will get an answer to your question. And I won't have to spoon feed it to you.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no way he gives you a straight answer. I'd bet you 1 million dollars.... if I wasn't paranoid about untermensche being a setup to get me to make an exorbitant bet that he'd say or do something stupid.

I am asking a different question. This thread is not about causes.

I will bet you will not ever answer it.

Is it possible to traverse an infinite line?

I've crossed plenty of lines.

You did not answer the question.

I win my bet.

 

[DBT]

That is just sad. You claim that no beginning is 'religion' but quite obviously cannot address the problem of First Cause.

 

[untermensche]

That is just sad. You claim that no beginning is 'religion' but quite obviously cannot address the problem of First Cause.

There is no problem of first cause if there must be a first cause.

Can the past be infinite? Can you traverse an infinite line?

Is a first cause necessary? Is a beginning necessary? Can you have progression without a beginning to that progression?

We can certainly conclude that before we can examine the possible nature of a first cause.

 

[Speakpigeon]

There is nothing that exists that cannot be divided up into chronologies such that any point can be called its beginning.

Ah yes, but you just forgot something. We're definitely methodical as a species if we're anything at all. Chronologies is one thing but we can't stop ourselves ordering the chaos around us. We're just so maniacal about it!

And, so, naturally, we've been given reality to inherit and what do we do with it? We immediately set out to divide things up between things finite and things infinite. You'd think it should be good enough but no! We just can't stop! We now want to say whether there's an infinite quantity of finite things and a finite quantity of infinite things, and vice-versa. The sheer perversion of it! So amazing!

Fortunately, we have here the Wise among the Wise to bring some restraint here. "I'm telling you", says He, "infinity just couldn't possibly exist! Repent, you bloody idiots!"

So, please, just listen to Him and His message.

And eat popcorn.
EB