The rise of Incels

[DrZoidberg]

Of course, the above isn't a strict rule and many men get laid for a variety of reasons and in a variety of contexts. But at a bare minimum if someone is attractive there is at least one trait present which would help their offspring procreate themselves, be it physical appearance, strength, confidence, or character. If someone lacks all four of these traits, be it man or woman, they're going to have a hard time.

This is where the evolutionary angle of sexual selection comes into play. Attraction is generally going to be different for males versus females of almost every mammalian species. For males, 'make good children and don't die in childbirth' is a core reproductive drive. For females, who bear the burden of childbirth, it's more like 'make good children and protect me while I gestate and then provide for and protect me and my children while I rear them'.

I think this is Christian nonsense. It's not even old. It's Victorian nuclear family post industrial Christian nonsense.

Our instincts and drives for sexual attraction developed when we were hunter/gatherers. Our brains have not changed much since the.

1) A man's ability to take care of his woman and the child is a non-factor in a tribal society. Since they all help each other out. All the moms of the tribe, in effect act as a single super mom. All the dad's act as one super dad. They all take care of each other.

2) Who you have sex with is everybody's business. Since the number and ages of children has an impact on the mobility of the tribe. This would be true no matter if people understood the link between sex and pregnancy. Since it can be subconscious/instinct control.

3) Primates use sex for a range of things other than getting babies. Our closest relatives, the bonobo, use sex primarily for social bonding and social control. By limiting sex and punishing slutty females the matriarchal alpha-female group maintains control of the entire tribe.

There's also stuff that assumes tribalism. Like domestic violence. When we were hunter/gatherers I assume it was a non-issue since other men would instantly stop men who beat their wives. As would women stop women engaging in toxic behaviours.

I think the men collectively were a stronger bonded group with each other than they were with their wives. As were women bonded with each other more than with their men. And the emotional life we have is evolutionarily designed to compensate for that. To quickly create strong bonds, assuming that your opportunities to strengthen them were limited.

Not to mention that our social emotional brain is adapted for limited new people. It assumes a stable social group where everybody knows each other incredibly well and they know that we're all stuck with each other.

 

[rousseau]

So I don't necessarily think it's just about fatherhood. I think that's too reductionist and too myopically focused on just reproduction.

If the choice of who to have sex and reproduce with isn't about reproduction, what is it about?

 

[skepticalbip]

So I don't necessarily think it's just about fatherhood. I think that's too reductionist and too myopically focused on just reproduction.

If the choice of who to have sex and reproduce with isn't about reproduction, what is it about?

Among humans, the choice of who to have sex with is about enjoyment (it feels good). The choice of who to have sex with and reproduce is about it feels good and reproduction.

 

[rousseau]

So I don't necessarily think it's just about fatherhood. I think that's too reductionist and too myopically focused on just reproduction.

If the choice of who to have sex and reproduce with isn't about reproduction, what is it about?

Among humans, the choice of who to have sex with is about enjoyment (it feels good). The choice of who to have sex with and reproduce is about it feels good and reproduction.

Sure, but for nearly the entirety of our history the reproduction part wasn't an option, so our in-built instincts draw us to people who tend to be good reproductive partners. Granted, it can seem a little more muddled than this because the perfect partner, man or woman, rarely exists. For the most part we are forced to choose from who is available to us.

Again, I'd go back to my argument that if a man or woman lacks all of these things: physical attractiveness, character, social skills, and confidence, they will have a very hard time finding a sex partner. And on the converse, the qualities that make someone a desirable sex partner are the exact same qualities that make that person a good (or at least reasonable) choice to have children with.

 

[skepticalbip]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity. Also singles bars would likely not exist.

 

[rousseau]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity.

Right, birth control opens up the possibility of sleeping with less than ideal partners, but the pattern still pretty much holds. If sleeping with a prostitute we're still going to want to sleep with someone who is an ideal partner if they are available.

 

[WAB]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity.

A lot of so-called infidelity is consensual, as you of course know. And a lot of non-consensual (meaning one of the legally married or socially committed partners is not in-the-know) infidelity is pleasurable [to the one in the know that is, as well as the one not in-the-know, at least with respect to the other's pretended ignorance]. A cuckold, for example, albeit a willing one, even a sneaky, divisive one, who feigns ignorance). A crafty cuck could, I suppose, though they could also be the one fooled as well as the one doing the fooling (around, lol), be the architect of a lover's triad, or a lover's orgy, or whatever the hell any of it all is.

 

[skepticalbip]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity.

Right, birth control opens up the possibility of sleeping with less than ideal partners, but the pattern still pretty much holds. If sleeping with a prostitute we're still going to want to sleep with someone who is an ideal partner if they are available.

That seems to take the movie, "Pretty Woman" much too seriously. I think reality is much more like I heard some comedian explain it, "You don't pay a prostitute for sex... You pay her to leave afterword."

And then, I can't imagine that a prostitute is only having sex with what they think of as "ideal partners".

 

[rousseau]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity.

Right, birth control opens up the possibility of sleeping with less than ideal partners, but the pattern still pretty much holds. If sleeping with a prostitute we're still going to want to sleep with someone who is an ideal partner if they are available.

That seems to take the movie, "Pretty Woman" much too seriously. I think reality is much more like I heard some comedian explain it, "You don't pay a prostitute for sex... You pay her to leave afterword."

You may find this read worthwhile if you hadn't heard of it:

Proximate and Ultimate Causes

I'm not really learning anything from this thread.. so I'm out.

 

[Jarhyn]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity.

A lot of so-called infidelity is consensual, as you of course know. And a lot of non-consensual (meaning one of the legally married or socially committed partners is not in-the-know) infidelity is pleasurable [to the one in the know that is, as well as the one not in-the-know, at least with respect to the other's pretended ignorance]. A cuckold, for example, albeit a willing one, even a sneaky, divisive one, who feigns ignorance). A crafty cuck could, I suppose, though they could also be the one fooled as well as the one doing the fooling (around, lol), be the architect of a lover's triad, or a lover's orgy, or whatever the hell any of it all is.

Yeah, see, the problem with that is the unlikelihood of any of it being healthy.

For even the barest assumption of healthyness, consent has to happen, even if it's later obscured behind a safe word or "role behaviors", and at some point the roles must be put aside and the "role behaviors" reviewed maturely.

These are pretty important rules, and those who shirk them will most assuredly suffer for it.

It can most certainly be a game, even a game whose stakes are the relationship itself... But not giving people a choice of whether to play or a knowledge of what game is being played... That's just fucking shitty.

 

[Emily Lake]

Of course, the above isn't a strict rule and many men get laid for a variety of reasons and in a variety of contexts. But at a bare minimum if someone is attractive there is at least one trait present which would help their offspring procreate themselves, be it physical appearance, strength, confidence, or character. If someone lacks all four of these traits, be it man or woman, they're going to have a hard time.

This is where the evolutionary angle of sexual selection comes into play. Attraction is generally going to be different for males versus females of almost every mammalian species. For males, 'make good children and don't die in childbirth' is a core reproductive drive. For females, who bear the burden of childbirth, it's more like 'make good children and protect me while I gestate and then provide for and protect me and my children while I rear them'.

I think this is Christian nonsense. It's not even old. It's Victorian nuclear family post industrial Christian nonsense.

Our instincts and drives for sexual attraction developed when we were hunter/gatherers. Our brains have not changed much since the.

1) A man's ability to take care of his woman and the child is a non-factor in a tribal society. Since they all help each other out. All the moms of the tribe, in effect act as a single super mom. All the dad's act as one super dad. They all take care of each other.

2) Who you have sex with is everybody's business. Since the number and ages of children has an impact on the mobility of the tribe. This would be true no matter if people understood the link between sex and pregnancy. Since it can be subconscious/instinct control.

3) Primates use sex for a range of things other than getting babies. Our closest relatives, the bonobo, use sex primarily for social bonding and social control. By limiting sex and punishing slutty females the matriarchal alpha-female group maintains control of the entire tribe.

There's also stuff that assumes tribalism. Like domestic violence. When we were hunter/gatherers I assume it was a non-issue since other men would instantly stop men who beat their wives. As would women stop women engaging in toxic behaviours.

I think the men collectively were a stronger bonded group with each other than they were with their wives. As were women bonded with each other more than with their men. And the emotional life we have is evolutionarily designed to compensate for that. To quickly create strong bonds, assuming that your opportunities to strengthen them were limited.

Not to mention that our social emotional brain is adapted for limited new people. It assumes a stable social group where everybody knows each other incredibly well and they know that we're all stuck with each other.

You've stuck together a post from me and a post from rousseau. I don't know which of us you're responding to here.

 

[WAB]

If that were so then there would be no prostitution and little (much, much less) infidelity.

A lot of so-called infidelity is consensual, as you of course know. And a lot of non-consensual (meaning one of the legally married or socially committed partners is not in-the-know) infidelity is pleasurable [to the one in the know that is, as well as the one not in-the-know, at least with respect to the other's pretended ignorance]. A cuckold, for example, albeit a willing one, even a sneaky, divisive one, who feigns ignorance). A crafty cuck could, I suppose, though they could also be the one fooled as well as the one doing the fooling (around, lol), be the architect of a lover's triad, or a lover's orgy, or whatever the hell any of it all is.

Yeah, see, the problem with that is the unlikelihood of any of it being healthy.

For even the barest assumption of healthyness, consent has to happen, even if it's later obscured behind a safe word or "role behaviors", and at some point the roles must be put aside and the "role behaviors" reviewed maturely.

These are pretty important rules, and those who shirk them will most assuredly suffer for it.

It can most certainly be a game, even a game whose stakes are the relationship itself... But not giving people a choice of whether to play or a knowledge of what game is being played... That's just fucking shitty.

Agreed.

Cue Sting song:

"If you Loooooooooooooooove somebody, set them free. Free, free. Set them free."

 

[Derec]

I also don't see it as a problem. This is a market place. If you want to get laid, then put in the effort.

Of course you would not see it as a problem. You do not have an issue getting women.

But for many, no amount of effort would do the trick.

 

[Derec]

think it's fair to say that most women don't relish being thought of like an item on a drive-through menu, to be ordered up for consumption then tossed aside once the dude's appetite has been sated.

Unless by a guy they find attractive, of course.

I know too many musicians who always have an attractive girlfriend.

Of course you do. Women are attracted to musician types.

 

[Bronzeage]

think it's fair to say that most women don't relish being thought of like an item on a drive-through menu, to be ordered up for consumption then tossed aside once the dude's appetite has been sated.

Unless by a guy they find attractive, of course.

I know too many musicians who always have an attractive girlfriend.

Of course you do. Women are attracted to musician types.

Well, there you go. You now have two ways to get a girlfriend. Either earn a lot of money, or learn to play the bass. Both are within your reach, if you apply yourself.

 

[TSwizzle]

Call me crazy, but maybe, just maybe... there are so many guys not getting laid because their entire objective is nothing more than to get laid. And while there are exceptions, I think it's fair to say that most women don't relish being thought of like an item on a drive-through menu, to be ordered up for consumption then tossed aside once the dude's appetite has been sated.

And don't forget lesbians. When I was single you would not believe the number of lesbians I encountered.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, there you go. You now have two ways to get a girlfriend. Either earn a lot of money, or learn to play the bass. Both are within your reach, if you apply yourself.

You're assuming everyone can learn to play a musical instrument. I have never tried but I'm sure it would be a total failure--I can't follow the beat of music, there's no way I could keep time with other players. (I don't know what it is beyond genetic--my father had the same problem.)

 

[Bronzeage]

Well, there you go. You now have two ways to get a girlfriend. Either earn a lot of money, or learn to play the bass. Both are within your reach, if you apply yourself.

You're assuming everyone can learn to play a musical instrument. I have never tried but I'm sure it would be a total failure--I can't follow the beat of music, there's no way I could keep time with other players. (I don't know what it is beyond genetic--my father had the same problem.)

I am sure anyone can learn to play a musical instrument. As Hamlet said, It's as easy as lying. The only necessary quality needed to play an instrument is the desire to play one.

I often get asked to sit in on writer's workshops, especially for young writers. They are young enough to think talent is a critical element to good writing. When it's my turn to talk about writing, I stress that talent is over rated. The key ingredients to good writing are the desire to write and the will to keep writing, rewriting, editing, and then rewriting again. By that time, talent is a very small part of the finished work.

This is a thread about men who have declared themselves undesired by women. Some blame themselves and some blame women. For every incel who can identify the cause of his involuntary celibacy, one can quickly find a dozen men in the same condition who are in relationships of varying satisfaction. It's one of those conditions which seems completely immune to good advice. It seems to be like anorexia, where telling the anorexic they are not fat is simply not sufficient, even though it is the truth.

It's a misperception of reality, which really sucks, because perception is reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, there you go. You now have two ways to get a girlfriend. Either earn a lot of money, or learn to play the bass. Both are within your reach, if you apply yourself.

You're assuming everyone can learn to play a musical instrument. I have never tried but I'm sure it would be a total failure--I can't follow the beat of music, there's no way I could keep time with other players. (I don't know what it is beyond genetic--my father had the same problem.)

I am sure anyone can learn to play a musical instrument. As Hamlet said, It's as easy as lying. The only necessary quality needed to play an instrument is the desire to play one.

You're assuming somebody with no impairment to their ability to learn. I can't keep time to music other than in some trivially easy cases. While that wouldn't be a big deal alone I think it would be pretty much a show-stopper in a cooperative situation. It's like color vision--it doesn't matter how much I study, I can't read the color codes on electronics because my color vision is flawed. (I can read resistor codes if I have a cheat card I can hold up next to the component. I can't read capacitor codes even with a cheat card.) (On the flip side--I was in my early teens before I understood the concept of camouflage--nature programs would talk about lion hiding in the grass when it was perfectly obvious to me, what's this hiding they're talking about???) (I know my color vision is flawed, but an awful lot of people with my level of impairment have no idea it's anything more than that they're bad with color. My former employer gave a color vision test to all new hires--20% failed and most of them had no idea they weren't seeing color right.)

This is a thread about men who have declared themselves undesired by women. Some blame themselves and some blame women. For every incel who can identify the cause of his involuntary celibacy, one can quickly find a dozen men in the same condition who are in relationships of varying satisfaction. It's one of those conditions which seems completely immune to good advice. It seems to be like anorexia, where telling the anorexic they are not fat is simply not sufficient, even though it is the truth.

It's a misperception of reality, which really sucks, because perception is reality.

Just because an obstacle doesn't stop everyone who faces it doesn't mean it's not a substantial obstacle. Sometimes proximity turns into something more--a different path to a relationship that will have different obstacles and thus might circumvent an obstacle that stops most people in a similar situation. However, it's a low enough probability scenario that it's not a solution.

Personally, I suspect that a lot of the incels are on the autism spectrum.

 

[Bronzeage]

Well, there you go. You now have two ways to get a girlfriend. Either earn a lot of money, or learn to play the bass. Both are within your reach, if you apply yourself.

You're assuming everyone can learn to play a musical instrument. I have never tried but I'm sure it would be a total failure--I can't follow the beat of music, there's no way I could keep time with other players. (I don't know what it is beyond genetic--my father had the same problem.)

I am sure anyone can learn to play a musical instrument. As Hamlet said, It's as easy as lying. The only necessary quality needed to play an instrument is the desire to play one.

You're assuming somebody with no impairment to their ability to learn. I can't keep time to music other than in some trivially easy cases. While that wouldn't be a big deal alone I think it would be pretty much a show-stopper in a cooperative situation. It's like color vision--it doesn't matter how much I study, I can't read the color codes on electronics because my color vision is flawed. (I can read resistor codes if I have a cheat card I can hold up next to the component. I can't read capacitor codes even with a cheat card.) (On the flip side--I was in my early teens before I understood the concept of camouflage--nature programs would talk about lion hiding in the grass when it was perfectly obvious to me, what's this hiding they're talking about???) (I know my color vision is flawed, but an awful lot of people with my level of impairment have no idea it's anything more than that they're bad with color. My former employer gave a color vision test to all new hires--20% failed and most of them had no idea they weren't seeing color right.)

This is a thread about men who have declared themselves undesired by women. Some blame themselves and some blame women. For every incel who can identify the cause of his involuntary celibacy, one can quickly find a dozen men in the same condition who are in relationships of varying satisfaction. It's one of those conditions which seems completely immune to good advice. It seems to be like anorexia, where telling the anorexic they are not fat is simply not sufficient, even though it is the truth.

It's a misperception of reality, which really sucks, because perception is reality.

Just because an obstacle doesn't stop everyone who faces it doesn't mean it's not a substantial obstacle. Sometimes proximity turns into something more--a different path to a relationship that will have different obstacles and thus might circumvent an obstacle that stops most people in a similar situation. However, it's a low enough probability scenario that it's not a solution.

Personally, I suspect that a lot of the incels are on the autism spectrum.

Why should lack of ability impair someone's desire to play a musical instrument? I never said anyone had be proficient at it. Some obstacles are more of a barrier than others, but an obstacle can't be declared an absolute barrier if most people go over or around it.

There are probably a lot of incels on the autism spectrum, but I suspect it's more of a body image/self assessment issue, along the lines of anorexia.