The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

[Juma]

Is that your definition of machine? Wherls with cogs? So a computer is not a machine?
A QM computer is not a machine?

It is not my definition. It is the definition in Descartes day.

The brain is not a machine either.

There is no ghost in a machine because there is no machine.

Not because there is no ghost.

The ghost remains.

And can lift the arm at "will".

So you are using a very outdated definition of "machine".

Dont.

 

[untermensche]

It is not my definition. It is the definition in Descartes day.

The brain is not a machine either.

There is no ghost in a machine because there is no machine.

Not because there is no ghost.

The ghost remains.

And can lift the arm at "will".

So you are using a very outdated definition of "machine".

Dont.

I am not using it. I am saying it is what people in Descartes time thought.

The people who talk about "ghost in a machine" are using an outdated definition that has no place in a modern discussion. There is no more machine. Only ghosts.

 

[Juma]

So you are using a very outdated definition of "machine".

Dont.

I am not using it. I am saying it is what people in Descartes time thought.

The people who talk about "ghost in a machine" are using an outdated definition that has no place in a modern discussion. There is no more machine. Only ghosts.

So the body is a ghost?

 

[DBT]

There seems to be a complete disconnect between what I am actually saying and what you believe I am saying.

I have never said that there is no mind, just that your expressions of 'you' having a 'mind' or mind that has some degree of autonomy from the brain and its mind forming activity is false.

The mind has control over the brain because the mind understands the obstacles in front of it, not the brain. The brain does not "know". It just "does".

Humans are not robots as you claim.

They control their bodies and their expressions with their minds.

And any science that denies that denies clear phenomena and is therefore useless.

The mind being shaped, formed and generated by the brain knows no more or less than whatever information the brain is inputting into its own conscious activity....''I shall lift my arm'' - motor actions initiated even before the thought was formed - 'I feel like a drink'' - signals from the organs preceded both the formation of the need to drink and the conscious thought and its associated motor action.

You have it backwards, even though you yourself acknowledged that mind is a feature of the brain, you still persist to imply autonomy of mind.

 

[DBT]

There seems to be a complete disconnect between what I am actually saying and what you believe I am saying.

I have never said that there is no mind, just that your expressions of 'you' having a 'mind' or mind that has some degree of autonomy from the brain and its mind forming activity is false.

Do you believe that there is a mind in addition to the processes it arises from?

Mind, according to the evidence, appears to be a feature of a certain class of brain activity. Mind being that activity.

 

[untermensche]

I am not using it. I am saying it is what people in Descartes time thought.

The people who talk about "ghost in a machine" are using an outdated definition that has no place in a modern discussion. There is no more machine. Only ghosts.

So the body is a ghost?

What does QM say about matter?

What does it reduce matter to?

That is our best explanation of "body".

 

[untermensche]

The mind has control over the brain because the mind understands the obstacles in front of it, not the brain. The brain does not "know". It just "does".

Humans are not robots as you claim.

They control their bodies and their expressions with their minds.

And any science that denies that denies clear phenomena and is therefore useless.

The mind being shaped, formed and generated by the brain knows no more or less than whatever information the brain is inputting into its own conscious activity....''I shall lift my arm'' - motor actions initiated even before the thought was formed - 'I feel like a drink'' - signals from the organs preceded both the formation of the need to drink and the conscious thought and its associated motor action.

You have it backwards, even though you yourself acknowledged that mind is a feature of the brain, you still persist to imply autonomy of mind.

The mind is shaped by experience, not the brain. The mind understands the world, not the brain. The mind acts in the world, not the brain.

And there is no initiation of movement anywhere until I decide to lift my arm. It is not a reflex. I "will" my arm to move and it does. Every time.

You are just making things up to satisfy a very bad understanding of what is going on. Actually to hide the fact that you have no understanding.

You can't explain the initiation of willful movement or willful expression. It is light years beyond our present understandings.

 

[Juma]

So the body is a ghost?

What does QM say about matter?

What does it reduce matter to?

That is our best explanation of "body".

It doesnt reduce matter. It is matter. And it isnt "ghost". We are not "ghosts".

 

[untermensche]

What does QM say about matter?

What does it reduce matter to?

That is our best explanation of "body".

It doesnt reduce matter. It is matter. And it isnt "ghost". We are not "ghosts".

It certainly does reduce matter.

It reduces it to models.

And none of those models are models of machines.

There is no machine. There are these ghostly entities. Matter and the mind.

 

[Juma]

It doesnt reduce matter. It is matter. And it isnt "ghost". We are not "ghosts".

It certainly does reduce matter.

It reduces it to models.

And none of those models are models of machines.

There is no machine. There are these ghostly entities. Matter and the mind.

Computers are machines. QM computers are machines. Humans ARE machines.

 

[untermensche]

It certainly does reduce matter.

It reduces it to models.

And none of those models are models of machines.

There is no machine. There are these ghostly entities. Matter and the mind.

Computers are machines. QM computers are machines. Humans ARE machines.

If matter is not a machine then there can be no ghosts in machines.

There is just a ghost (the mind) generated by some activity of ghostly material (matter).

The idea of a ghost in a machine is an outdated idea that doesn't describe what is going on.

But the bottom line is a person can move their limbs with their minds.

If you claim they can't you are just talking gibberish.

 

[Juma]

But the bottom line is a person can move their limbs with their minds.

Get your act together.

Either the mind is the action of the brain or you are suggesting "the ghost in the machine"

 

[untermensche]

But the bottom line is a person can move their limbs with their minds.

Get your act together.

Either the mind is the action of the brain or you are suggesting "the ghost in the machine"

No, you make some argument instead of worthless pronouncements.

There is no machine to speak of here.

Sure there are human machines, and humans fully understand how they work, but the brain is not one of them.

When you can tell me what the mind is you can possibly talk about a machine, not before.

 

[Juma]

Get your act together.

Either the mind is the action of the brain or you are suggesting "the ghost in the machine"

No, you make some argument instead of worthless pronouncements.

There is no machine to speak of here.

The body is a machine.
the brain is a machine.

 

[untermensche]

No, you make some argument instead of worthless pronouncements.

There is no machine to speak of here.

The body is a machine.
the brain is a machine.

Easy to say, but not so easy to demonstrate.

I'm not a follower of your religion so I don't believe you.

Prove it.

Start by demonstrating what a mind is.

 

[Juma]

The body is a machine.
the brain is a machine.

Easy to say, but not so easy to demonstrate.

I'm not a follower of your religion so I don't believe you.

Prove it.

Prove what? That the body works by interaction of its parts = a machine.

 

[untermensche]

Easy to say, but not so easy to demonstrate.

I'm not a follower of your religion so I don't believe you.

Prove it.

Prove what? That the body works by interaction of its parts = a machine.

How does the body work?

When you "willfully" move your arm, what is happening?

Tell me the first event.

The question for science is: How does the mind control the brain?

Pretending it doesn't will not lead to anything of use.

 

[Juma]

Prove what? That the body works by interaction of its parts = a machine.

How does the body work?

When you "willfully" move your arm, what is happening?

Tell me the first event.

There is no "first event". We are acontinously ongoing process.

But the first event relative the arm movement is the change of state of some neurons that handles the current goal priorities.

 

[untermensche]

How does the body work?

When you "willfully" move your arm, what is happening?

Tell me the first event.

There is no "first event". We are acontinously ongoing process.

But the first event relative the arm movement is the change of state of some neurons that handles the current goal priorities.

There has to be some kind of redirection of the "process".

The "process" (whatever that is) does not just randomly lift the arm. The mind directs the "process" to lift the arm. If the mind wants the arm to move. If the mind does not want the arm to move it won't. The mind has control over the arm. To deny it is to deny the thing people that can move understand clearly.

That is the phenomena science must explain and not run away from.

 

[Juma]

There is no "first event". We are acontinously ongoing process.

But the first event relative the arm movement is the change of state of some neurons that handles the current goal priorities.

There has to be some kind of redirection of the "process".

The "process" (whatever that is) does not just randomly lift the arm. The mind directs the "process" to lift the arm. If the mind wants the arm to move. If the mind does not want the arm to move it won't. The mind has control over the arm. To deny it is to deny the thing people that can move understand clearly.

That is the phenomena science must explain and not run away from.

the process that lifts the arm is part of the mind.