The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

[Juma]

I dont say nothing, i try to help you realize that you have misunderstood what he has been writing. There is really no use that I argument for his case, You only have to read his posts again.

You are merely a pest.

You make no arguments or points.

And won't even answer simple questions, like: Can you lift your arm with your mind?

Your muscles do the lifting. The neurons of your neurosystem transport the signal. The electrochemical process of your brain (your mind) regulates when to send the signal. That ishow your mind makes your arm move.

 

[untermensche]

You are merely a pest.

You make no arguments or points.

And won't even answer simple questions, like: Can you lift your arm with your mind?

Your muscles do the lifting. The neurons of your neurosystem transport the signal. The electrochemical process of your brain (your mind) regulates when to send the signal. That ishow your mind makes your arm move.

What a dance.

When people dance around like this they are usually trying to hide something.

I simply command my arm to move with my mind and it does. Every time.

Of course the muscles carry out the order from the brain after the mind orders the brain to do it.

 

[beero1000]

 

[Juma]

Your muscles do the lifting. The neurons of your neurosystem transport the signal. The electrochemical process of your brain (your mind) regulates when to send the signal. That ishow your mind makes your arm move.

What a dance.

When people dance around like this they are usually trying to hide something.

I simply command my arm to move with my mind and it does. Every time.

Of course the muscles carry out the order from the brain after the mind orders the brain to do it.

So in some magical way your mind has to interact with the physical brain.

The problem with that is that that interaction must be via one of the four known forces. (That there cannot be any other force has been ruled out by nuclear physics ages ago: there is no particle that corresponds to such a field) And of them we can rule out gravity, strong nuclear and weak nuclear which leaves us with the electromagnetic force.


So what IS interacting with the physical brain using electromagnetic forces? Itself and nothing else! Thus the mind must be processe within the brain.

 

[ryan]

What 'we' do? The brain is already doing what we do. We are what the brain is doing. There is no additional agency over and above what the brain is doing and therefore what we are doing.

This is just to point out how the mind could veto something without magic: veto being an actual thing that we do with no explanation yet, such as readiness potential (as far as I know).

Mind does nothing that the brain is not doing. Mind thinks nothing that the brain is not thinking and deciding or altering decisions by the stimulus of fresh information input.

I think you are assuming that the information is fresh and doesn't have anything to do with the mind's physical activity in the brain. Because, I can only find studies saying that readiness potential has not been observed when a subject vetoes a decision.

I am making no such assumption.....perhaps you could provide links and quotes to studies and experiments that specifically involve veto function in relation to readiness potential..ie...that means veto function being tested. I look forward to seeing your material.

A few weeks ago, I read that a vetoed decision was not found to have the readiness potential that the original decision has. I told you at the time and probably pasted the link. Anyways, since you are making the positive claims here, I would hope that you would have information that leads you to believe that a vetoed decision works the same way as the original decision.

After Libet discovered the readiness potential, he tested the veto. Read,

"In this case, Libet had participants in the same basic paradigm, but he instructed the participants that once you become aware of your urge to flex, then stop it. Don't flex your fingers or wrist. Libet believed that there was a window of about 150 ms in which the participant could do this (note that the whole 200 ms between conscious awareness and muscle movement is not available, because once the spinal nerves are activated, somewhere around 50 ms before the muscle movement, this can not be stopped). The results indicated that the cortical readiness potential did develop (even earlier than in the past experiments), but this brain activity flattened out just before the muscle action, which indicated the vetoing effects of conscious choice. Libet concluded that participants were using conscious choice to veto the muscle flex at the last moment.".

from https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dont-delay/201106/free-wont-it-may-be-all-we-have-or-need

 

[ryan]

Activity absolutely has to affect us in some way. I only brought this up to DBT as a way the veto might work since there is no other explanation.

Activity IS the effect!!!

Right, but then how does this effect affect the brain? This physical activity can't just go away with no further physical consequences.

 

[fromderinside]

Activity IS the effect!!!

Right, but then how does this effect affect the brain? This physical activity can't just go away with no further physical consequences.

Be darned if I know after being away from the field as a researcher some 36 years now. Back in the day our lab was looking at how ascending and descending activity interacted with signals to influence memory and learning. In particular I was looking for the locus and the vehicle for both memory and learning in the auditory pathways. We were finding some modulation of activation of cells in intermediate structures as signals in general were being processed mainly due to corrective signals descending to these structures. Tricky process getting unambiguous results doing that.

It seems, at the time there were local chemical processes that may underlie short term memory accretion particularly at the  Inferior colliculus and  Medial geniculate nucleus relay stations. The point is activity what where when how and why (putting on my newsman hat now). The brain isn't just a thinking structure, not even importantly so. One might get to this by looking at the very limited regions in which associative activity is evident. the brain is generally not the servant of the mind because it is an evolved thing, not rigorously designed to think or act. In fact attributing a mind function to the brain is about as laughable as one gets and still keeps a straight face.

 

[untermensche]

What a dance.

When people dance around like this they are usually trying to hide something.

I simply command my arm to move with my mind and it does. Every time.

Of course the muscles carry out the order from the brain after the mind orders the brain to do it.

So in some magical way your mind has to interact with the physical brain.

In some way it does.

That is clear.

The only question for science is how.

But to deny the mind can move the body is just insanity.

 

[untermensche]

This is the future for paraplegics.

They are taking advantage of the mind phenomena but don't understand how it happens.

 

[fromderinside]

This is the future for paraplegics.

They are taking advantage of the mind phenomena but don't understand how it happens.

Oh gee, gosh. So the brain works a certain way. Scientists bypass or patch, some electronic capability, and the brain works that same certain way.

Where is that mind exactly?

 

[beero1000]

This is the future for paraplegics.

They are taking advantage of the mind phenomena but don't understand how it happens.

Oh gee, gosh. So the brain works a certain way. Scientists bypass or patch, some electronic capability, and the brain works that same certain way.

Where is that mind exactly?

Shhh, he's believing over here. Such certainty must be nice.

If only he was right.

 

[untermensche]

This is the future for paraplegics.

They are taking advantage of the mind phenomena but don't understand how it happens.

Oh gee, gosh. So the brain works a certain way. Scientists bypass or patch, some electronic capability, and the brain works that same certain way.

Where is that mind exactly?

She is using her mind to move a robotic arm.

She is using her mind to generate some kind of impulse the computers can work with.

Where is her mind that she is clearly using?

That of course is a very good question.

But it won't be answered by those who can't even see what she is clearly doing.

 

[Juma]

So in some magical way your mind has to interact with the physical brain.

In some way it does.

That is clear.

The only question for science is how.

But to deny the mind can move the body is just insanity.

This is insanity. Nobody denies that the mind van move the body.

The problem with you is that you doesnt take reason or able to respond coherently.

 

[untermensche]

In some way it does.

That is clear.

The only question for science is how.

But to deny the mind can move the body is just insanity.

This is insanity. Nobody denies that the mind van move the body.

The problem with you is that you doesnt take reason or able to respond coherently.

That last sentence was almost English.

So now you say you see things my way?

The mind is a mechanism.

 

[Juma]

This is insanity. Nobody denies that the mind van move the body.

The problem with you is that you doesnt take reason or able to respond coherently.

That last sentence was almost English.

So now you say you see things my way?

The mind is a mechanism.

I dont think anybody is able to conclude what your mean...

 

[untermensche]

That last sentence was almost English.

So now you say you see things my way?

The mind is a mechanism.

I dont think anybody is able to conclude what your mean...

It means the mind can make the brain and therefore the body do things.

We make decisions with our minds and then act on them with our minds.

The mind is the mechanism humans used to build their world. Humans are not like birds that build the same nest their parents built.

But the mind is a mechanism that can be influenced by emotion and desires. And of course by things like alcohol.

All is far more complicated than the people who know a little neurophysiology seem to understand.

 

[ryan]

Right, but then how does this effect affect the brain? This physical activity can't just go away with no further physical consequences.

Be darned if I know after being away from the field as a researcher some 36 years now. Back in the day our lab was looking at how ascending and descending activity interacted with signals to influence memory and learning. In particular I was looking for the locus and the vehicle for both memory and learning in the auditory pathways. We were finding some modulation of activation of cells in intermediate structures as signals in general were being processed mainly due to corrective signals descending to these structures. Tricky process getting unambiguous results doing that.

It seems, at the time there were local chemical processes that may underlie short term memory accretion particularly at the  Inferior colliculus and  Medial geniculate nucleus relay stations. The point is activity what where when how and why (putting on my newsman hat now). The brain isn't just a thinking structure, not even importantly so. One might get to this by looking at the very limited regions in which associative activity is evident. the brain is generally not the servant of the mind because it is an evolved thing, not rigorously designed to think or act. In fact attributing a mind function to the brain is about as laughable as one gets and still keeps a straight face.

Laughable? The consciousness is the activity in the cortex, thalamus and the reticular formation - that is quite a lot of the brain. But you say it is this causal one-way street that has no feedback effects on the future decisions of this infinitely intricate system. I doubt you are certain of this.

 

[DBT]

But you seem to be saying humans are just machines and the mind has no real control over anything.

No. dBT has not said no such thing.

It doesn't appear to matter what I say, because it doesn't suit the members of the opposition it'll always be misconstrued. It's the only way they can maintain an appearance of an argument.

 

[DBT]

What 'we' do? The brain is already doing what we do. We are what the brain is doing. There is no additional agency over and above what the brain is doing and therefore what we are doing.

This is just to point out how the mind could veto something without magic: veto being an actual thing that we do with no explanation yet, such as readiness potential (as far as I know).

Mind does nothing that the brain is not doing. Mind thinks nothing that the brain is not thinking and deciding or altering decisions by the stimulus of fresh information input.

I think you are assuming that the information is fresh and doesn't have anything to do with the mind's physical activity in the brain. Because, I can only find studies saying that readiness potential has not been observed when a subject vetoes a decision.

I am making no such assumption.....perhaps you could provide links and quotes to studies and experiments that specifically involve veto function in relation to readiness potential..ie...that means veto function being tested. I look forward to seeing your material.

A few weeks ago, I read that a vetoed decision was not found to have the readiness potential that the original decision has. I told you at the time and probably pasted the link. Anyways, since you are making the positive claims here, I would hope that you would have information that leads you to believe that a vetoed decision works the same way as the original decision.

After Libet discovered the readiness potential, he tested the veto. Read,

"In this case, Libet had participants in the same basic paradigm, but he instructed the participants that once you become aware of your urge to flex, then stop it. Don't flex your fingers or wrist. Libet believed that there was a window of about 150 ms in which the participant could do this (note that the whole 200 ms between conscious awareness and muscle movement is not available, because once the spinal nerves are activated, somewhere around 50 ms before the muscle movement, this can not be stopped). The results indicated that the cortical readiness potential did develop (even earlier than in the past experiments), but this brain activity flattened out just before the muscle action, which indicated the vetoing effects of conscious choice. Libet concluded that participants were using conscious choice to veto the muscle flex at the last moment.".

from https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dont-delay/201106/free-wont-it-may-be-all-we-have-or-need

I'm aware of what Libet claimed, but that's not what you claimed. I've already said (several times) that decisions can be altered or vetoed if the timing permits. If not, you have the regret of being stuck with a bad decision.

This does not mean that the veto is not performed by information input preceded by processing....because that would be magic, information from nowhere.

Because the window of opportunity is so narrow, the processing and input that formed the original decision is nearly immediately altered by information riding on its heels.

This is experienced consciously as a change of mind, but it is not a conscious decision because the process is faster than reflex actions, which are not something that is thought about or experienced as a conscious decision.

Sorry, ryan, there is no magic 'free will' veto.

 

[DBT]

No

It sure is.

He is actually claiming a person can't use their mind to move their arm. And he has absolutely nothing to back up this wild claim.

It is as incoherent a position as one can take.

I'd be inclined to say that it's your comprehension that's flawed.

You dismiss the research on sensory input, motor action, conscious decision relationships because it doesn't suit your belief in autonomous mind as the driver of the vehicle, the body.

It is this belief that is not only not supported by evidence, but refuted by evidence we have.

Nor did I say that mind does not play a role....but that the mind is a part of the neural process of cognition beginning with sensory inputs to thought generation and motor action.

Objects and events in the external world ->input of information from objects and events ->propagation of information throughout the neural networks of the brain -> conscious perception of that information forms ->conscious feelings and emotions emerge ->conscious thoughts and deliberations emerge -> a conscious impulse to respond (the conscious will to act) -> a conscious action is performed

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''