The Science and Mechanics of Free Will

[untermensche]

There has to be some kind of redirection of the "process".

The "process" (whatever that is) does not just randomly lift the arm. The mind directs the "process" to lift the arm. If the mind wants the arm to move. If the mind does not want the arm to move it won't. The mind has control over the arm. To deny it is to deny the thing people that can move understand clearly.

That is the phenomena science must explain and not run away from.

the process that lifts the arm is part of the mind.

You don't have the slightest idea what the mind is.

All you know is you can use it to form expressions and move around.

All you know is it can control the brain in some way.

And you know this. It isn't speculation.

You are human so you can deny anything, even that which is clearly apparent, like you can move your arm with your mind.

 

[ryan]

Do you believe that there is a mind in addition to the processes it arises from?

Mind, according to the evidence, appears to be a feature of a certain class of brain activity. Mind being that activity.

So then why can't this physical activity affect what we do? This is just to point out how the mind could veto something without magic: veto being an actual thing that we do with no explanation yet, such as readiness potential (as far as I know).

 

[fromderinside]

All that one can say about activity is that it is evidence that something is going on. I don't see how activity can affect what we do since it is, itself, evidence something is going on. An effect must remain so.

 

[ryan]

All that one can say about activity is that it is evidence that something is going on. I don't see how activity can affect what we do since it is, itself, evidence something is going on. An effect must remain so.

Activity absolutely has to affect us in some way. I only brought this up to DBT as a way the veto might work since there is no other explanation.

 

[DBT]

Humans are not robots as you claim.

There you go again. Where do you get this from? I have made no such claim.

They control their bodies and their expressions with their minds.

And any science that denies that denies clear phenomena and is therefore useless.

The actual clear phenomena being that anything that effects the brain and its function, drugs, alcohol, stimulants, depressants, connectivity issues or whatever always effect the mind in related ways, you get drunk, your senses or memory is effected, you lose consciousness, etc.

This is not a case of the vehicle being altered or damaged so that unaffected driver - you proposed autonomous mind for which there is no evidence - but the very means that mind is formed is so effected that it cannot perform that function normally.

 

[DBT]

Mind, according to the evidence, appears to be a feature of a certain class of brain activity. Mind being that activity.

So then why can't this physical activity affect what we do?

What 'we' do? The brain is already doing what we do. We are what the brain is doing. There is no additional agency over and above what the brain is doing and therefore what we are doing.

This is just to point out how the mind could veto something without magic: veto being an actual thing that we do with no explanation yet, such as readiness potential (as far as I know).

Mind does nothing that the brain is not doing. Mind thinks nothing that the brain is not thinking and deciding or altering decisions by the stimulus of fresh information input.

 

[ryan]

So then why can't this physical activity affect what we do?

What 'we' do? The brain is already doing what we do. We are what the brain is doing. There is no additional agency over and above what the brain is doing and therefore what we are doing.

This is just to point out how the mind could veto something without magic: veto being an actual thing that we do with no explanation yet, such as readiness potential (as far as I know).

Mind does nothing that the brain is not doing. Mind thinks nothing that the brain is not thinking and deciding or altering decisions by the stimulus of fresh information input.

I think you are assuming that the information is fresh and doesn't have anything to do with the mind's physical activity in the brain. Because, I can only find studies saying that readiness potential has not been observed when a subject vetoes a decision.

 

[DBT]

What 'we' do? The brain is already doing what we do. We are what the brain is doing. There is no additional agency over and above what the brain is doing and therefore what we are doing.

This is just to point out how the mind could veto something without magic: veto being an actual thing that we do with no explanation yet, such as readiness potential (as far as I know).

Mind does nothing that the brain is not doing. Mind thinks nothing that the brain is not thinking and deciding or altering decisions by the stimulus of fresh information input.

I think you are assuming that the information is fresh and doesn't have anything to do with the mind's physical activity in the brain. Because, I can only find studies saying that readiness potential has not been observed when a subject vetoes a decision.

I am making no such assumption.....perhaps you could provide links and quotes to studies and experiments that specifically involve veto function in relation to readiness potential..ie...that means veto function being tested. I look forward to seeing your material.

 

[untermensche]

There you go again. Where do you get this from? I have made no such claim.

I'm trying to be generous. Your position is so logically incoherent I really can't make sense of it.

But you seem to be saying humans are just machines and the mind has no real control over anything.

Humans are merely robots.

It defies all experience of the mind and clear phenomena however.

They control their bodies and their expressions with their minds.

And any science that denies that denies clear phenomena and is therefore useless.

The actual clear phenomena being that anything that effects the brain and its function, drugs, alcohol, stimulants, depressants, connectivity issues or whatever always effect the mind in related ways, you get drunk, your senses or memory is effected, you lose consciousness, etc.

What you don't seem to understand is all this is ADDITIONAL phenomena ON TOP of the normal phenomena of a working brain without external influence.

It says absolutely NOTHING about what is going on when a person "wills" their arm to move.

You seem to be making this same incoherent and illogical point over and over.

Like a religious adherent.

 

[Juma]

But you seem to be saying humans are just machines and the mind has no real control over anything.

No. dBT has not said no such thing.

 

[untermensche]

But you seem to be saying humans are just machines and the mind has no real control over anything.

No. dBT has not said no such thing.

His position is incoherent. He keeps talking about external stimulation or disruption of the brain which has nothing to do with normal brain functioning.

He is saying nothing really.

Which is fitting since we know nothing about the actual physiology of the mind. We don't have a clue which specific physiological process is giving rise to it.

 

[Juma]

No. dBT has not said no such thing.

His position is incoherent.

No

 

[untermensche]

His position is incoherent.

No

It sure is.

He is actually claiming a person can't use their mind to move their arm. And he has absolutely nothing to back up this wild claim.

It is as incoherent a position as one can take.

 

[Juma]

He is actually claiming a person can't use their mind to move their arm.

No, He is not. You has misunderstood him.

 

[untermensche]

He is actually claiming a person can't use their mind to move their arm.

No, He is not. You has misunderstood him.

No, he clearly said it.

You obviously don't understand him.

And you certainly can't speak for him so how about you tell me if you think you can lift your arm by merely "willing" it with your mind.

It is something we all, those of us who can move at will, do everyday.

Enough with your gibberish.

Can you move your arm with your mind or not?

I can move mine. My legs and my tongue too. I merely "will" it with my mind and they move on command.

That is the phenomena, and what science needs to explain.

Pretending it doesn't happen is just a way to remain ignorant forever.

 

[Juma]

No, He is not. You has misunderstood him.

No, he clearly said it.

You obviously don't understand him.

Yes, I do.
i now leave your confusion in his hands....

 

[untermensche]

No, he clearly said it.

You obviously don't understand him.

Yes, I do.
i now leave your confusion in his hands....

Why do you intrude, say nothing, then run away like a child?

What do you possibly get out of it?

 

[Juma]

Yes, I do.
i now leave your confusion in his hands....

Why do you intrude, say nothing, then run away like a child?

What do you possibly get out of it?

I dont say nothing, i try to help you realize that you have misunderstood what he has been writing. There is really no use that I argument for his case, You only have to read his posts again.

 

[fromderinside]

All that one can say about activity is that it is evidence that something is going on. I don't see how activity can affect what we do since it is, itself, evidence something is going on. An effect must remain so.

Activity absolutely has to affect us in some way. I only brought this up to DBT as a way the veto might work since there is no other explanation.

Activity IS the effect!!!

 

[untermensche]

Why do you intrude, say nothing, then run away like a child?

What do you possibly get out of it?

I dont say nothing, i try to help you realize that you have misunderstood what he has been writing. There is really no use that I argument for his case, You only have to read his posts again.

You are merely a pest.

You make no arguments or points.

And won't even answer simple questions, like: Can you lift your arm with your mind?