The Shooting of Daniel Shaver

[Malintent]

My wife just can't keep her hands away from her face... it drives me crazy... rubbing her nose, eyes.. scratching her brow.. it is almost constant at times... Occasionally, I might tell her to stop rubbing her eyes.. usually she becomes instantly defensive and denies she was touching her face at all... I have no idea what its about or where it came from... it's like a nervous tick at times...

If a cop told her to put her hands up and not to move, I would be terrified that she would just randomly decide to start rubbing her eyes and scratching her nose.. she would be told to stop moving and the order to put her hands up would be repeated... and she might genuinely be confused as to what the cop was telling her to do, because she would be oblivious to having moved her hands... Scarier even, the repeating of the order after her oblivious motion might cause her to then think she got the order wrong in the first place, and then go and do something else with her hands... My wife does have a problem following verbal directions, and on top of that is clueless about certain things she does with her hands... That could have been her killed In that hallway very easily under the same circumstances.

.. just like that oblivious guy that couldn't follow directions for more than a few seconds and was unable to keep track of where he was putting his own hands.

Cops should be trained to deal with disorders like the one involved in a persons inability to sense their own actions.. to know that their hand is moving.. to be able to do something a different way than they are used to doing it (like standing up without pulling the back of your pants up) if it is expressed how important it is to do so.

The cop asked if he was drunk and not able to understand... the victim denied being drunk... he would have been better off drunk and just admitting he was unreliable at following orders.

 

[TSwizzle]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

 

[Malintent]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

That, or there are details you are unaware of - a recurring theme in all of your posts... If it isn't published in a newspaper, it never happened. ... let me think about this for a sec... option 1: information exists in the universe that this poster cannot reasonably be expected to know. Option 2: everyone besides this poster has lost their minds... Thinking... thinking...

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

 

[RavenSky]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

That, or there are details you are unaware of - a recurring theme in all of your posts... If it isn't published in a newspaper, it never happened. ... let me think about this for a sec... option 1: information exists in the universe that this poster cannot reasonably be expected to know. Option 2: everyone besides this poster has lost their minds... Thinking... thinking...

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

Strangely, I tend to agree with Twizzle on this one... "Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue." Juries are generally hand-picked to steer towards each sides preferred outcome without regarding for truth or justice.

And when you get both sides (prosecution and defense) actually on the same side (wanting acquittal for the cop), then I think Twizzle is probably correct that we end up with moronic juries. (The Zimmerman case also comes to mind here)

As to procedure, we have already seen editorials showing that these cops did not follow best practices procedures. It is highly doubtful the jury got to see these opinions, though. Would it have changed their ruling? Unknown, but perhaps.

 

[TSwizzle]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

 

[marc]

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

And of course the procedures are perfect, always giving the correct course of action in all situations. They cannot be questioned, even when they differ from procedures from another group.


More seriously, if we start accepting the 'shoot first on anyone suspected of having a gun' line of reasoning, doesn't that open up the ability of murder by cop? Just call in an anonymous tip about anyone you don't like, and let the cops do the rest. We already have Swatting - the 'prank' of calling 911 on a person playing some online FPS. Police arrive and either hear the shooting going on in the game, or possibly the smack talk of the player. And if the player is wearing headphones, they might not know anyone else is there until they are on him. If the group of police sent in have people like the guy in this shooting, someone could end up dead for playing a video game.

 

[RavenSky]

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

And of course the procedures are perfect, always giving the correct course of action in all situations. They cannot be questioned, even when they differ from procedures from another group.


More seriously, if we start accepting the 'shoot first on anyone suspected of having a gun' line of reasoning, doesn't that open up the ability of murder by cop? Just call in an anonymous tip about anyone you don't like, and let the cops do the rest. We already have Swatting - the 'prank' of calling 911 on a person playing some online FPS. Police arrive and either hear the shooting going on in the game, or possibly the smack talk of the player. And if the player is wearing headphones, they might not know anyone else is there until they are on him. If the group of police sent in have people like the guy in this shooting, someone could end up dead for playing a video game.

WTF? That's a real thing!

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiW-BVPCbZk[/YOUTUBE]

Yes, you are correct. It is sheer good luck that no one has been killed yet. Some of those SWAT entries in the video were terrifying

 

[Malintent]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

What are you trying to say? There should be no laws of any kind, because having them inhibits independent thought? That about it?

 

[Malintent]

And of course the procedures are perfect, always giving the correct course of action in all situations. They cannot be questioned, even when they differ from procedures from another group.

Oh well.. it was worth a try.. I guess writing down rules so everyone can know what they are is a bad idea after all.. I mean, if someone fails to follow rules ever, then that is proof that there never should be rules, of course... oh what shall one do now that the theory of laws has been proven wrong.

More seriously, if we start accepting the 'shoot first on anyone suspected of having a gun' line of reasoning

calm down. No one is arguing to take your guns away from you.. it'll be OK... Where did your quote come from? Who are what are you quoting or paraphrasing? How is quoting no one about nothing anyone said "More serious" than addressing the point you agreed with regarding rules basically being pointless..

 

[TSwizzle]

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

And of course the procedures are perfect, always giving the correct course of action in all situations. They cannot be questioned, even when they differ from procedures from another group.


More seriously, if we start accepting the 'shoot first on anyone suspected of having a gun' line of reasoning, doesn't that open up the ability of murder by cop? Just call in an anonymous tip about anyone you don't like, and let the cops do the rest. We already have Swatting - the 'prank' of calling 911 on a person playing some online FPS. Police arrive and either hear the shooting going on in the game, or possibly the smack talk of the player. And if the player is wearing headphones, they might not know anyone else is there until they are on him. If the group of police sent in have people like the guy in this shooting, someone could end up dead for playing a video game.

The problem with the procedures is that it gives lunatics like Brailsford a get out of jail free card and hoodwink the morons on the jury into believing the killing of a civilian was all within legal limits. He could barely follow procedure anyway, shit for brains was fired.

 

[LordKiran]

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

What are you trying to say? There should be no laws of any kind, because having them inhibits independent thought? That about it?

He's saying that holding up procedure above all else makes you little better than the soldiers in war who defend themselves and the attrocities they commit by claiming "I was just following orders."

 

[J842P]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

That, or there are details you are unaware of - a recurring theme in all of your posts... If it isn't published in a newspaper, it never happened. ... let me think about this for a sec... option 1: information exists in the universe that this poster cannot reasonably be expected to know. Option 2: everyone besides this poster has lost their minds... Thinking... thinking...

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

Who cares if they broke procedure or not? That seems entirely irrelevant. What if "procedure" was to murder people on sight?

What is relevant is whether or not this guy was murdered, and any non-bootlicker can clearly see this was outright murder.

 

[Malintent]

Procedure, procedure, procedure. Everyone must follow procedure. If we follow procedure then everything will be ok because we won't have to think and make decisions and nothing will be our fault. And then we can convince the handpicked morons on the jury that nothing illegal happened.

What are you trying to say? There should be no laws of any kind, because having them inhibits independent thought? That about it?

He's saying that holding up procedure above all else makes you little better than the soldiers in war who defend themselves and the attrocities they commit by claiming "I was just following orders."

holding up procedure above all else? where was that said and by whom? What about Twiz saying there should never be any laws of any kind because it is bad for... something?

you are both saying that anarchy is better than having rules that may not be followed.... I am trying to parse that...

 

[Malintent]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

That, or there are details you are unaware of - a recurring theme in all of your posts... If it isn't published in a newspaper, it never happened. ... let me think about this for a sec... option 1: information exists in the universe that this poster cannot reasonably be expected to know. Option 2: everyone besides this poster has lost their minds... Thinking... thinking...

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

Who cares if they broke procedure or not? That seems entirely irrelevant. What if "procedure" was to murder people on sight?

What is relevant is whether or not this guy was murdered, and any non-bootlicker can clearly see this was outright murder.

well the shooting certainly did not appear justified. However, what you think should be called "murder" really has less to do with the facts of the case and more to do with the flavor of Police Drama TV you watched as a kid.

 

[J842P]

He's saying that holding up procedure above all else makes you little better than the soldiers in war who defend themselves and the attrocities they commit by claiming "I was just following orders."

holding up procedure above all else? where was that said and by whom? What about Twiz saying there should never be any laws of any kind because it is bad for... something?

you are both saying that anarchy is better than having rules that may not be followed.... I am trying to parse that...

Where did Twiz say: "there should never be any laws of any kind because it is bad for... something?

- - - Updated - - -

Who cares if they broke procedure or not? That seems entirely irrelevant. What if "procedure" was to murder people on sight?

What is relevant is whether or not this guy was murdered, and any non-bootlicker can clearly see this was outright murder.

well the shooting certainly did not appear justified. However, what you think should be called "murder" really has less to do with the facts of the case and more to do with the flavor of Police Drama TV you watched as a kid.

Nonsense. It has entirely everything to do with the facts of the case, most importantly, with the facts caught on camera.

 

[Malintent]

That cop is a lunatic. Trial by jury is a joke in this country. Most of the jurors were likely hand picked morons that haven't got a clue.

That, or there are details you are unaware of - a recurring theme in all of your posts... If it isn't published in a newspaper, it never happened. ... let me think about this for a sec... option 1: information exists in the universe that this poster cannot reasonably be expected to know. Option 2: everyone besides this poster has lost their minds... Thinking... thinking...

I guess I would ask if this cop broke procedure by shooting a perp that refused to follow directions repeatedly after repeated warnings and then making a fast movement towards the back of his pants...

Think maybe that question was asked and then answered in court?

Who cares if they broke procedure or not?

all of the rational people that are in a position to evaluate sand affect change to such procedures. Or, we can just say, "who cares what the law is" and ignore that a guy was wrongfully shot.. because "wrongfully" is entirely subjective without them.

That seems entirely irrelevant. What if "procedure" was to murder people on sight?

What if it was illegal to not shoot someone laying down in a hallway? Ever consider that? What if this person WANTED to be shot. Guess you feel pretty stupid now, huh.. cause' MAYBE he wanted to be shot. Take anything you want to hear yourself saying, and add "what if" to the front of it... and now its magically valid.

What is relevant is whether or not this guy was murdered, and any non-bootlicker can clearly see this was outright murder.

If you ever serve in a jury, please listen to the Judge's instructions very carefully... cause the law don't work like you think it does.
all we have are laws in the written form... you may not like the implications of laws not appealing to emotional states, but that is how it works... either the cop followed the rules are he didn't.. and that is all that matters with respect to claims of "murder", if that is where you want to set the bar.

If I could get away with any mistake I make at work simply by successfully defending myself against a murder charge, then I would pretty much never have to do my job correctly again. I don't want cops rated on how much they haven't murdered... I want them rated by how well they serve their community. The hyperbole in this thread is endemic to this reaction.

 

[J842P]

Who cares if they broke procedure or not?

all of the rational people that are in a position to evaluate sand affect change to such procedures. Or, we can just say, "who cares what the law is" and ignore that a guy was wrongfully shot.. because "wrongfully" is entirely subjective without them.

That seems entirely irrelevant. What if "procedure" was to murder people on sight?

What if it was illegal to not shoot someone laying down in a hallway? Ever consider that? What if this person WANTED to be shot. Guess you feel pretty stupid now, huh.. cause' MAYBE he wanted to be shot. Take anything you want to hear yourself saying, and add "what if" to the front of it... and now its magically valid.

What is relevant is whether or not this guy was murdered, and any non-bootlicker can clearly see this was outright murder.

If you ever serve in a jury, please listen to the Judge's instructions very carefully... cause the law don't work like you think it does.
all we have are laws in the written form... you may not like the implications of laws not appealing to emotional states, but that is how it works... either the cop followed the rules are he didn't.. and that is all that matters with respect to claims of "murder", if that is where you want to set the bar.

If I could get away with any mistake I make at work simply by successfully defending myself against a murder charge, then I would pretty much never have to do my job correctly again. I don't want cops rated on how much they haven't murdered... I want them rated by how well they serve their community. The hyperbole in this thread is endemic to this reaction.

What a load of boot-licking nonesense and non-sequitors.

If the guy wanted to get shot, ceteris paribus, it would *still be murder*. Just as if it is murder whether or not the cop followed procedure.

This view:

either the cop followed the rules are he didn't.. and that is all that matters with respect to claims of "murder", if that is where you want to set the bar.

Has been used to justify all kinds of crimes. "Following the procedure" has nothing to do with whether or not the cop committed murder. They are orthogonal concepts. Police procedure is not equivalent to the law, and can be either coherent with the law or in opposition to it.

 

[LordKiran]

He's saying that holding up procedure above all else makes you little better than the soldiers in war who defend themselves and the attrocities they commit by claiming "I was just following orders."

holding up procedure above all else? where was that said and by whom? What about Twiz saying there should never be any laws of any kind because it is bad for... something?

you are both saying that anarchy is better than having rules that may not be followed.... I am trying to parse that...

Using procedure to justify murder is tantamount to "Just following orders." Get it? And make no mistake. Daniel Shaver WAS murdered.

 

[TSwizzle]

View attachment 13613

Officer Brailsford had "You're fucked" etched into his rifle. This information was not allowed as evidence. Seriously what kind of police department allows this type of culture to cultivate ? The civil case will undoubtedly find him guilty of wrong doing.

 

[J842P]

View attachment 13613

Officer Brailsford had "You're fucked" etched into his rifle. This information was not allowed as evidence. Seriously what kind of police department allows this type of culture to cultivate ? The civil case will undoubtedly find him guilty of wrong doing.

Yep, I'm sure the family members will get their bloodwit, since in America, the best you can hope for when it comes to cops murdering civilians is something out of the bronze-age.