The story so far...

[Stephen T-B]

I offer this summary as the basis for a conversation (sorry for its length)...
The Story.
Stage 1.
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth and two fatally-flawed temporal beings (Adam and Eve, progenitors of all humanity) who are possessed by metaphysical souls which, on account of that inherent flaw, perish along with their hosts.

Stage 2
The god entity selects a subsequent being (Abraham) to be the founder of a nation (the Jews), whose souls will attain immortality provided their hosts observe a plethora of rules regulating diet, food preparation, clothing materials, beliefs, religious rituals (along with various kinds of sacrifice) and general behaviour.

Stage 3
The god entity generates a humanoid version of itself (Jesus) with the commission to enable the souls of all humankind, regardless of race, to attain immortality provided their hosts;
a) worship the god entity;
b) acknowledge the divinity of Jesus;
c) acknowledge the flaws in the flawed nature they inherited, plus other specific wrong-doings they may have committed,
and
d) treat one an other with respect.
Jesus is to achieve his commission by offering himself up as a blood sacrifice on behalf of humankind to appease the god entity which continues to be offended by the flaws in the flawed nature it gave Adam and Eve and which all their descendants inherited.

Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.

(Stage 3 has a variation, in that some people acknowledge the divine commission given to Jesus but deny his divinity, and stage 4 has variations, among which is a belief that the dead will be resurrected on Judgement Day, their souls winning immortality or being finished off, permanently.)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Shouldn't you preface all those statements with "I was told?"

 

[Stephen T-B]

No.
I've not been told any if that.

 

[bilby]

An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth

That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.

 

[Stephen T-B]

An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth

That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Where do you think I'm coming from as regards the OP?

 

[bilby]

An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth

That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Where do you think I'm coming from as regards the OP?

I have no opinion on that.

I am simply responding to what you wrote. Do you disagree with any of my response?

 

[excreationist]

Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.

Yeah it seems eternal torment became the church tradition rather than that originally being part of the Bible.

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell....

 

[Stephen T-B]

An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth

That's already absurd, as it suggests an importance for the Earth that is massively out of proportion.

The Earth is barely noticeable as a fraction of the solar system, which as Arthur C Clarke observed, consists of the Sun, Jupiter, and assorted debris.

If I said that I built my house, and put that particular mote of dust in the corner of the second bedroom, that would be much less absurdly attentive to the dust mote than saying that God created the Milky Way galaxy and the Earth. And the Milky Way is less still than a dust mote, by comparison to the universe.

These religious nuts have zero sense of scale, and a literally astronomically over-inflated sense of their own importance.

Where do you think I'm coming from as regards the OP?

I have no opinion on that.

I am simply responding to what you wrote. Do you disagree with any of my response?

I don't disagree with it.
What I'd hoped for was a critique.
In the OP I outlined the steps taken in the development of a religious mythology which in turn underpins present-day doctrine.
Naturally I think I've got them right but would like to hear if I haven't; if I've over-simplified or entirely misunderstood/misinterpreted the process.

 

[Stephen T-B]

Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.

Yeah it seems eternal torment became the church tradition rather than that originally being part of the Bible.

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell....

"I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell...." Is this a recent development, and how widely do you think it's held?
(I'm not sure what you mean by "serious" Christians).

 

[steve_bank]

All mythology is the same basis.

For a well documented modern example look at Mormons and how ir got started.

Or how the original Dracula story based on folk stories and a real life bloody leader morphed over time into all the vampire variations.

With exceptions it is not deigned, it evolves. Scientology was designed by a second rate scifi writer. Church Of Satan and other counter Christian religions were crafted for profit.

The JFK White House image of a family man wih kids in the Oval Office was pure fabrication and bogus, yet people believed in the image and it fostered American hope during the Cold War. Women did their hair like Jackie.

I'd say there is something in how our brains are wired that creates a need, and myths of all kinds fill the need.

Starting in the 60s the modern myth of the lone rock guitarist against the world. A heroic image.

 

[Elixir]

(I'm not sure what you mean by "serious" Christians).

Right, that is a bit of an oxymoron.
Or a redundancy, depending on how you look at them.

 

[excreationist]

"I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell...."

Is this a recent development, and how widely do you think it's held?

Well I'm unaware of any Bible verses that say Satan rules over hell....

(I'm not sure what you mean by "serious" Christians).

Christians who are familiar with the Bible.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I offer this summary as the basis for a conversation (sorry for its length)...
The Story.
Stage 1.
An immortal entity, worshipped as a god and referred to variously as God, Lord, Yahweh, the Godhead, creates the universe and the Earth and two fatally-flawed temporal beings (Adam and Eve, progenitors of all humanity) who are possessed by metaphysical souls which, on account of that inherent flaw, perish along with their hosts.

Stage 2
The god entity selects a subsequent being (Abraham) to be the founder of a nation (the Jews), whose souls will attain immortality provided their hosts observe a plethora of rules regulating diet, food preparation, clothing materials, beliefs, religious rituals (along with various kinds of sacrifice) and general behaviour.

Stage 3
The god entity generates a humanoid version of itself (Jesus) with the commission to enable the souls of all humankind, regardless of race, to attain immortality provided their hosts;
a) worship the god entity;
b) acknowledge the divinity of Jesus;
c) acknowledge the flaws in the flawed nature they inherited, plus other specific wrong-doings they may have committed,
and
d) treat one an other with respect.
Jesus is to achieve his commission by offering himself up as a blood sacrifice on behalf of humankind to appease the god entity which continues to be offended by the flaws in the flawed nature it gave Adam and Eve and which all their descendants inherited.

Stage 4
Hell and eternal torment become central features in main-stream Christian doctrine, and simultaneously, Satan graduates from subversive mischief-maker and tempter to becoming the embodiment of evil; the enemy of God, intent on inducing humans to offend him, thus condemning their souls to eternal torment in Hell, over which he presides.

(Stage 3 has a variation, in that some people acknowledge the divine commission given to Jesus but deny his divinity, and stage 4 has variations, among which is a belief that the dead will be resurrected on Judgement Day, their souls winning immortality or being finished off, permanently.)

Actually Stage One involves a spiteful god who doesn’t want competition and tells man the knowledge fruit would kill them. When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole. The whole flawed part isn’t much of a thing until after the Jesus cult remixes The Fall.

 

[excreationist]

....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.

Also Genesis 3:22

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” ​

 

[Politesse]

"I'm not sure if serious Christians believe that Satan is ruling over hell...."

Is this a recent development, and how widely do you think it's held?

Well I'm unaware of any Bible verses that say Satan rules over hell....

(I'm not sure what you mean by "serious" Christians).

Christians who are familiar with the Bible.

Its from Book I, lines 242-270 of the Gospel of Milton:

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; the almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

You may protest that Milton is not canon, but what is more canonical really, a book some crusty old bishops liked in the 4th century, or a book that is widely read, liked, and vividly illustrated in all manner of media for three centuries.

 

[excreationist]

Well I'm unaware of any Bible verses that say Satan rules over hell....

Its from Book One, lines 242-270 of the Gospel of Milton:

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; the almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

Yeah.... though it isn't from the official Bible.... though there's this:
Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever​

​

Note I don't think there are Bible verses that say that humans will be tormented forever though it talks about the "smoke of their torment".

 

[bilby]

....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.

Also Genesis 3:22

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” ​

It seems passing strange thst the one and only God of Abraham, appears to be a polytheist for much of the Old Testament.

Surely his complaint should be that they have become like "me" rather than "one of us".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.

Also Genesis 3:22

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” ​

Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.

 

[excreationist]

It seems passing strange thst the one and only God of Abraham, appears to be a polytheist for much of the Old Testament.

Surely his complaint should be that they have become like "me" rather than "one of us".

Christians would see that as evidence that God was a trinity all along....

 

[excreationist]

....When said fruit doesn’t actually do that, he bans man and woman from the garden because he is an asshole.

Also Genesis 3:22

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” ​

Yeah, he is an asshole. He lies to man about the fruit of knowledge and the. kicks man and woman out because he doesn’t want equals among him.

The traditional church view is that they still had an immortal soul.... causing them to live forever in hell.... I think being able to die is merciful....