The universe is proof of god!

[Underseer]

I've run into countless variations on the argument presented in the subject/title of this thread, and I'm sure many of you have as well.

Claim: the universe was farted into existence by a giant space goat
Evidence: the universe exists
Conclusion: therefore, the giant space goat exists and created the universe

The universe itself proves the existence of the giant space goat and His Divine Flatulence. You goat-haters are aware that the universe exists, so you have no excuse for denying the existence of the giant space goat!

Here's the problem: in order to be meaningful, evidence needs to exclusively support one explanation, or at least allow us to eliminate one or more competing explanations. Every explanation for the existence of the universe results in the universe, so the existence of the universe is "supporting evidence" for all possible explanations, including any explanations I make up in the future.

The existence of the universe is only evidence that the universe exists. It is not proof of giant space goats nor invisible anthropomorphic gods nor trickster aliens nor anything else.

Unrelated aside: If anyone thinks it sounds weird that the above claim is that the universe was farted into existence, note that the Bible claims that the universe was spoken into existence. I mean, why not sung into existence or danced into existence or fluffed into existence or thrown into existence or donned into existence or fetched into existence or signed into existence? What is it about magical incantations that makes that particular verb sound more plausible to believers and the others less plausible?

 

[Underseer]

Yes, I'm borrowing the concept of the space goat from that other thread. It's useful for talking about this specific type of argument since I just recently ran into this type of argument again. The existence of the universe isn't supporting evidence in any meaningful way, and I'm not sure how to get that across to theists.

 

[James Brown]

P1: God is defined as a being who creates universes.
P2: The universe exists.
C1: Therefore, God exists.

 

[Underseer]

P1: God is defined as a being who creates universes.
P2: The universe exists.
C1: Therefore, God exists.

It's practically a tautology, isn't it?

 

[none]

hmm... universes?
sounds like 2 wishful thoughts in the first premise

 

[braces_for_impact]

In my circles, this is known as the "just look at the trees" argument.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Well, in honesty, it is a good argument for a supernatural farting space goat if the target audience is both superstitious and scientifically illiterate. All those presents tell millions of people all they ever need to know about Santa.

 

[Jobar]

I think that little .gif destroys every version of the Cosmological Argument.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Hesiod's Theogony.

Verily at the first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundations of all.

Any number of early cosmological arguments start with a Chaotic void that emanates all. Or a primal sea. (Including Genesis). Or eternal void and atoms. And it seems that fields that emanate virtual particles that could create a entire bubble Universe, is a true state if affairs. (Alan Guth and others). Primal Chaos is closer to fact than God creating all.

So I am a believer in Primal Chaos. It fits the facts better. The incoherencies and self contradictions created by theistic claims about God's attributes and nature seem to eliminate that hypothesis from being true.

Three cheers for Primal Chaos, our creator!

 

[Underseer]

In my circles, this is known as the "just look at the trees" argument.

Or a baby's smile, or sunsets, or whatever. But yeah, I've heard the trees variant a lot.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unrelated aside: If anyone thinks it sounds weird that the above claim is that the universe was farted into existence, note that the Bible claims that the universe was spoken into existence.

Does it? God's first words speak light into existence. I think it is hard to tell if the universe always existed or god created earth and the heavens.

I mean, why not sung into existence or danced into existence or fluffed into existence or thrown into existence or donned into existence or fetched into existence or signed into existence? What is it about magical incantations that makes that particular verb sound more plausible to believers and the others less plausible?

Very much that... to speak and things happen... that is power.

 

[arkirk]

It all depends on what you want a word to mean. If you want to make God exist, then define it to suit yourself and align it with as much of reality as feel you must. Supposing you decide that God is the cause of all that you know exists, then he (sic) will not be writing silly things like the Bible, the Koran, or the I Ching. The detective work of science is uncovering various rules that seem to apply in our area of understanding, these of course must be God's will. Most of it is not some sort of moral situation. It is things like laws of physics and the like. If we're not careful however narcissists who imagine themselves god like will attempt to withdraw the U.S. from worldly law. At any rate, we are not anywhere close to understanding anything like the "will" of a God who rules the universe, so we won't be defining him or her or it.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

In my circles, this is known as the "just look at the trees" argument.

Or a baby's smile, or sunsets, or whatever. But yeah, I've heard the trees variant a lot.

Just look at all those savage acts of predation. Look at all those horrible parasites. Look at those nasty viruses, bacteria and protozoans. Your God seems to be a rotten, sadistic bastard. Does all of these things seem to indicate a kindly, merciful, compassionate God? Or a mindless, opportunistic nature?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In my circles, this is known as the "just look at the trees" argument.

Or a baby's smile, or sunsets, or whatever. But yeah, I've heard the trees variant a lot.

Just look at all those savage acts of predation. Look at all those horrible parasites. Look at those nasty viruses, bacteria and protozoans. Your God seems to be a rotten, sadistic bastard. Does all of these things seem to indicate a kindly, merciful, compassionate God? Or a mindless, opportunistic nature?

I was thinking about Indiana Jones Raiders of The Lost Ark. And it occurred to me that the Nazis all die looking at the stuff after opening the ark. Spoiler alert?

So the Nazis don't get the ark, end of story, happy ending...

...except the Holocaust still happens and tens of millions of soldiers and civilians die because of Hitler. Thanks God.

 

[Kharakov]

An apparently unitary section of something (spacetime+matter) exists (universe), which has both consciousnesses and qualities (quale) within it.

It can't have possibly known what to do initially, as chaos reigned, until some organizing principle emerged and dominated.

Who cares.

I'm dealing with Carbon based entities bent on molding me into subservience so they can live the good life off of my work, while making sure I get very little, because once you've had a taste of the good life, you want it too, or at least don't want to support corrupt assholes living it when you know you'll never have it.

 

[OLDMAN]

Everything that had to happen for the universe to come into existence happened, and must still be happening. Things unfold as they must, isn't that what they say about Gods plan?

 

[Poppa Popobawa]

In my circles, this is known as the "just look at the trees" argument.

Or a baby's smile, or sunsets, or whatever. But yeah, I've heard the trees variant a lot.

Listen atheist fellas 'n' chix.
_______

Just look at the trees . . . and . . . and . . .

a baby's smile . . . and . . . and . . .

a sunset . . . or . . . or . . .

parasites . . . or . . . or . . .

diseases . . . or . . . or . . .

starvation . . . or . . . or . . .

{ evil ??? }
_______

So obviously "God" exists . . .
_______

QED . . .

done deal . . .

dah, dah, dah suckers.
_______

S'later.
Pops.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Just look at all those savage acts of predation. Look at all those horrible parasites. Look at those nasty viruses, bacteria and protozoans. Your God seems to be a rotten, sadistic bastard. Does all of these things seem to indicate a kindly, merciful, compassionate God? Or a mindless, opportunistic nature?

I was thinking about Indiana Jones Raiders of The Lost Ark. And it occurred to me that the Nazis all die looking at the stuff after opening the ark. Spoiler alert?

So the Nazis don't get the ark, end of story, happy ending...

...except the Holocaust still happens and tens of millions of soldiers and civilians die because of Hitler. Thanks God.

Now that I think of it... shouldn't the US have had fake Nazis bring the Ark to Hitler? Let him see it and... that's the end of it all?

 

[ideologyhunter]

1. I'd say God exists 'cause on the hour that Christ died, an earthquake hit and a bunch of zombies came out of their graves, walked into Jerusalem and were seen by many. Or at least Matthew saw them. Mark, Luke, John, everybody else in history who owned a pen -- no.
2. Kirk Cameron makes it even easier. God exists 'cause of EYES. (Cave fish don't tend to credit this so much.) You don't need the universe. It's eyes. Look at your eyes.

 

[Lion IRC]

View attachment 15762

I think that little .gif destroys every version of the Cosmological Argument.

The problem is that folks who stumble across an ornate fob watch in the forest don't like being told not to ask who created it and how it got there. And they certainly don't like being told there's no design intent or purpose behind a watch.

What is the fob watch doing? Tic toc tic toc tic toc.....
Hmmm?

ETA
Remember how annoying it was as a child when you asked a question and some lazy adult, who couldn't be bothered, answered you with the words..."just because"?

Thats Occams Razor.

Unanswered, avoided questions don't yield parsimony.

Saying..."it just is" - that's not elegant simplicity. That's intellectual laziness. (Or being gutless)