• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The US National Popular Vote is a little bit closer

There's plenty of stuff urbanites are more familiar with than ruralites, in general.
Sure. But this makes it sound like you think there are NOT things that ruralites are more familiar with than urbanites.

I'm a solid suburbanite, because I need to be within travel distance of my employer. Given my preferences, I'd be out in the boonies with no neighbors in sight. I like privacy, freedom, wildlife, space, and solitude. I dislike crowds, tall buildings, traffic, pollution, and the tendency of city-dwellers to think that restaurants and cafes are "culture".

Mostly, I have found that people who view themselves as urbanites seem to think that they're better than ruralites in just about every way. They tend to be condescending toward people who live in rural areas, they tend to look down on them. And I find that extremely distasteful and irritating. I have found that people who live in rural areas tend to be a bit more humble, they value experience and know-how more than just education - but they don't disparage education either. They are often distrustful of urbanites.
 
My post was a counter to the pinion that urbanites knew anything about farming. Mostly, they don’t. A depresssing number of people never consider where their food comes fro

Given the thread topic, it looks more like protecting your current privilege. There's plenty of stuff urbanites are more familiar with than ruralites, in general.

Maybe y'all should move to the suburbs?
Only not mine, because I like it as it is.
Tom
I’m really not in favor of a bully pulpit, which seems to me what people are arguing for.

I left your state for many good reasons. So far, I have found none to draw me back.

Interestingly enough, I have spent most of the last 30+ years arguing with my husband about moving to the ‘burbs. I don’t think that would alleviate my concerns. I’m not overly concerned with agreeing with the majority when I think that either the majority is wrong or that the majority is seeking to run roughshod over the minority-ANY minority.
 
Anyway... I am opposed to going to a pure popular vote while also having FPTP voting system.

I get that. There's plenty of better options than the primitive "democratic systems technology" we've got.
But are they feasible, given everything?
Is the perfect the enemy of the good in this scenario?

I dunno, but the current system can be hugely improved upon, without a Constitutional Amendment and all the problems that would entail. So that's what I support.
Tom
Thing is that I don't think a popular vote is a good thing at all with FPTP. I think it would be worse than what we have right now. I don't view it as "perfect being the enemy of the good". I view it as being shortsighted and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Just step back and give it a think. Would you support the EU adopting a pure popular vote for the items that they oversee in Western Europe? Do you think it would make sense, given the highly disparate sizes and populations of the member countries, as well as the vastly varying traditions, cultures, and priorities of those member countries? Do you genuinely think that it would be overall a good thing for all of the citizens under the EU?

Or do you think there would be a risk that the most populous countries could force everyone to focus on their priorities and desires while completely ignoring the citizens of smaller countries?

Sometimes what's best for the largest number of people isn't actually the best for the whole entity. Especially when there is a massive variance in population density that leads to a concentration of similar views that don't apply outside of those dense areas.

What's best for densely populated urban areas is not necessarily best - or even good - for sparsely populated areas. Sometimes finding the most acceptable and most appropriate solution for the entire country means that the urban centers might not get their way all the time.
 
Thing is that I don't think a popular vote is a good thing at all with FPTP. I think it would be worse than what we have right now. I don't view it as "perfect being the enemy of the good". I view it as being shortsighted and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Why? You have not explained why you think that giving Wyoming almost 4X the per capita voting power of California is a good thing.

And no, I don't know enough about the EU to have an opinion. The USA I do know.
Tom
 
Looking more broadly, is the US system of government really that great?
and

The US is good, but not nearly as good as the top scorers.
  • Economist Democracy Index: #30, 7.85 / 10 (max 9.81)
  • Freedom in the World: #61, 83 /100 (max 100)
  • Democracy Matrix: #36, 0.811 / 1 (max 0.958)
  • Fragile States Index: (reversed) #40, 73.4 / 120 (max 104.9)

Here is a composite profile and how the US compares:
  • Strong legislature - yes
  • Parliamentary system - no
  • Weak or absent upper house - no
  • Proportional representation - no
  • Weak separate executive - no

The US is one of the best with a pure presidential system, with Uruguay, Costa Rica, Chile, and South Korea doing better than the US.

It may be difficult for the US to get to a pure parliamentary system, but a more feasible target is a hybrid system, a semi-presidential system. The US does better than most of these ones also, with France, Taiwan, and Lithuania doing better than the US.

The US could get to a semi-presidential system with Congress directly running much of the executive branch.
 
What's best for densely populated urban areas is not necessarily best - or even good - for sparsely populated areas. Sometimes finding the most acceptable and most appropriate solution for the entire country means that the urban centers might not get their way all the time.

I see no reason to think that urban centers will get their way all the time. Nor do I think that urbanites are some monolithic bloc who vote in lock step.

Maybe the reason you and I are disagreeing is the binary "urbanites v ruralites". I don't see America that way at all. Country kids move to the city because there's no future for them in Bumfuckistan. City folks move to the country because they get fed up with the downsides of urban life. Then there's the "suburbs", where I've lived most of my life.

Call me nuanced if you must, but I don't see this big chasm.
Tom
 
I would, however, support a revision of the Electoral Process. There's no need for it to involve actual people. I think the following would be an improvement:
  • Each congressional district supplies one electoral vote based on the popular vote within that district
  • Each state supplies two electoral votes to the candidate that received the highest number of district votes within that state
  • In the event that the district votes are evenly split, the two state level electoral votes go to the winner of the popular vote for the state as a whole
 
In almost all elections, the electoral college votes are in agreement with the popular vote.
In direction, yes, but that's nothing to be complacent about, especially when we have had 2 misfires in the last 6 elections.

 List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin - electoral-vote victory margins are typically much larger than popular-vote ones. That is why a close popular vote risks misfiring, and close popular votes is what we've been having for the last few decades.
 
Thing is that I don't think a popular vote is a good thing at all with FPTP. I think it would be worse than what we have right now. I don't view it as "perfect being the enemy of the good". I view it as being shortsighted and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Why? You have not explained why you think that giving Wyoming almost 4X the per capita voting power of California is a good thing.

And no, I don't know enough about the EU to have an opinion. The USA I do know.
Tom
Yes, I DID. The electoral college system balances the rights of small population states against the power of large population states.
 
In almost all elections, the electoral college votes are in agreement with the popular vote.
In direction, yes, but that's nothing to be complacent about, especially when we have had 2 misfires in the last 6 elections.

 List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin - electoral-vote victory margins are typically much larger than popular-vote ones. That is why a close popular vote risks misfiring, and close popular votes is what we've been having for the last few decades.
Would you and I see them as ‘misfires’ if the Democratic candidate had won?

I think I would have been relieved.
 
Thing is that I don't think a popular vote is a good thing at all with FPTP. I think it would be worse than what we have right now. I don't view it as "perfect being the enemy of the good". I view it as being shortsighted and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Why? You have not explained why you think that giving Wyoming almost 4X the per capita voting power of California is a good thing.

And no, I don't know enough about the EU to have an opinion. The USA I do know.
Tom
Some of the explanation was included in the section immediately following where you seem to have stopped reading.
 
, I DID. The electoral college system balances the rights of small population states against the power of large population states.

No, you made a claim.
And backed it up with "proposals" to steal your water.

But you also demonstrated a lack of understanding about how the EC works.
No one—and I mean no one has the equivalent of 3 votes because of where they live!

Electoral votes are based on the number of representatives which are sent to Congress.

Tom
 
Looking more broadly, is the US system of government really that great?
and

The US is good, but not nearly as good as the top scorers.
  • Economist Democracy Index: #30, 7.85 / 10 (max 9.81)
  • Freedom in the World: #61, 83 /100 (max 100)
  • Democracy Matrix: #36, 0.811 / 1 (max 0.958)
  • Fragile States Index: (reversed) #40, 73.4 / 120 (max 104.9)

Here is a composite profile and how the US compares:
  • Strong legislature - yes
  • Parliamentary system - no
  • Weak or absent upper house - no
  • Proportional representation - no
  • Weak separate executive - no

The US is one of the best with a pure presidential system, with Uruguay, Costa Rica, Chile, and South Korea doing better than the US.

It may be difficult for the US to get to a pure parliamentary system, but a more feasible target is a hybrid system, a semi-presidential system. The US does better than most of these ones also, with France, Taiwan, and Lithuania doing better than the US.

The US could get to a semi-presidential system with Congress directly running much of the executive branch.
Why do you (or these indexes I suppose) think that a pure parliamentary system is a better system?
 
, I DID. The electoral college system balances the rights of small population states against the power of large population states.

No, you made a claim.
And backed it up with "proposals" to steal your water.

But you also demonstrated a lack of understanding about how the EC works.
No one—and I mean no one has the equivalent of 3 votes because of where they live!

Electoral votes are based on the number of representatives which are sent to Congress.

Tom
Nope. I gave a particularly outrageous example of a proposal being made by people far away who felt that perhaps they could solve their problems by using up someone else’s resources.

And gave multiple other examples of similar ( less outrageous)proposals/projects that would serve the needs of many people who live far away from where the actual damage would be done. Rather like coal mining or fracking.

And yes, I DO understand the electoral college and how it works, and moreover, how laws governing voting are the purview of the state ( within limits of federal laws and the Constitution).
 
Mostly, I have found that people who view themselves as urbanites seem to think that they're better than ruralites in just about every way.
I do not find that to be true.

So we have arrived at, “some people in the city… while others don’t” and “some people in the country don’t… while others do”


They tend to be condescending toward people who live in rural areas, they tend to look down on them.
I do not think they “tend” to, at all.
I think rural people are told they do, but I don’t find that they actually do.

Just like the term “Flyover Country” is a phrase I have only ever heard from the right, and from the rurals. “They call us flyover country,” But they actually don’t.

And I find that extremely distasteful and irritating. I have found that people who live in rural areas tend to be a bit more humble,
Hoooboy. Yah, no.
Can I introduce you to the testicles on the pickuptruck?

And they can be so deeply disdainful of the city people who are “dirty, drugged out and crooked,” while simultaneouly being “snotty, greedy rich elites”
they value experience and know-how more than just education - but they don't disparage education either.


HOOOOOOboy!

You have never sat in a rural town hall and listened to the people who close down the library because, aside from harboring witchcraft (Potter) and homosexuality (My two moms), and - cue the shouting voice, the pointing finger and the spittle - because I don’t need no library! Nor a school either! You only need one book to teach your children, and YOU WILL ANSWER TO GOD FOR THIS!!

I laugh when people tell me how rural folks are all that is good and urban folks are just condescending elites.

I laugh. You are so wrong. Rural folks are no different than city folks at all, and they have less breadth of experience with differences to learn from.

Yah, no.

They are often distrustful of urbanites.

Oh that they are. That they are. Someone moved here from a nearby city that has a population of 38,000. They are a city person and will take a generation to be accepted. I am considered an outsider, even though I grew up in a town with even fewer people and I have lived here for 30 years. Every gathering starts with an introduction of how long your family has been here and what roads bear your name.


I just do not agree AT ALL that rural people are entitled to 3 votes just for being rural. They are not special, they are not perfect, they are not better than the “snobby urbanites.” They are just people like everyone else and the calls to claim they aren’t, are, in my experience, bullshit.

Thing is that I don't think a popular vote is a good thing at all with FPTP. I think it would be worse than what we have right now. I don't view it as "perfect being the enemy of the good". I view it as being shortsighted and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Why? You have not explained why you think that giving Wyoming almost 4X the per capita voting power of California is a good thing.

And no, I don't know enough about the EU to have an opinion. The USA I do know.
Tom
Yes, I DID. The electoral college system balances the rights of small population states against the power of large population states.
It does not balance them. It privileges them.

And it doesn’t need to as you can clearly see from NY, CA and TX having in their state legislatures a decent mix of the needs of rural and urban.

We’ve already PROVED that we don’t need it.
 
What's best for densely populated urban areas is not necessarily best - or even good - for sparsely populated areas. Sometimes finding the most acceptable and most appropriate solution for the entire country means that the urban centers might not get their way all the time.

I see no reason to think that urban centers will get their way all the time. Nor do I think that urbanites are some monolithic bloc who vote in lock step.

Maybe the reason you and I are disagreeing is the binary "urbanites v ruralites". I don't see America that way at all. Country kids move to the city because there's no future for them in Bumfuckistan. City folks move to the country because they get fed up with the downsides of urban life. Then there's the "suburbs", where I've lived most of my life.

Call me nuanced if you must, but I don't see this big chasm.
Tom
I'm not saying they're monoliths. What I'm saying is that the needs and priorities of densely populated urban areas tend to be more like one another (despite many difference between NY and LA), and those tend to be substantially different than the needs and priorities of sparsely populated rural areas.

Of course there will be some variation. But let's take some really basic items. Let's talk about... transportation and medical access.

Urban areas, even ones with very different cultural backgrounds, will probably have a need and a desire for robust public transportation infrastructure, and investments in expansion and maintenance of it. They'll want and need bus systems, subways or lightrails, ride shares, etc. And they'll want some element of public subsidization of those services, so that they can 1) provide accessible transportation to more people and 2) reduce traffic congestion and the risk of accidents and 3) reduce pollution.

Rural areas aren't going to care about that. It's off the top completely unfeasible to provide those services to a rural area, there aren't enough people and the locations are too far apart.

Urban areas might very well want and need to invest in more urgent care and primary care clinics, as well as multiple imaging centers. They may want more hospitals, especially hospitals with specific illness focuses (Cancer Treatment Centers, Neurological Centers). And they may want those services to be subsidized so that care can be provided to lower income or homeless people and prevent the spread of illnesses in a dense population.

Rural areas might want access to those services... but it makes zero sense to build a Cancer Center in Minot ND. Rural areas would benefit far more from having integrated medical centers that have some hospital inpatient/outpatient services, as well as urgent care and primary care services in one location.

And for the kicker - Rural areas would benefit from having subsidized transportation services that are more like a taxi that can support getting people from far spread locations to those integrated medical centers, or can transport them into a city for more severe or specialized services.

Even if each given geography has different needs and priorities, the underlying nature of the needs of densely populated areas and the needs of sparsely populated areas are qualitatively different.

There are also going to be needs that vary by geography that are independent of population density to some degree - but I might argue that even then, the densely populated area might end up with a priority position. Consider the desert southwest, which includes very rural parts of New Mexico, Arizona, Las Vegas, and Southern California as well as Metropolitan regions in each of those states. There's a definite need for water in those areas - and this is true whether they're urban or rural. But there's a real risk that priority for water distribution might end up going to cities than to rural areas. And that's going to end up including non-essential water usage for prettification of landscapes in those urban areas.

The electoral college is far from perfect. But at present it is the only mechanism that provides at least some means by which the varying needs and priorities of different geographies and different population densities can have some degree of balance imposed upon them. There are better methods out there - but NOT when paired with FPTP voting.
 
That’s just bullshit. My voice counts more in my town and in my county because it’s a low populated county/small city.

My voice is dwarfed with respect to the voices of those living in major urban centers with respect to legislation that will govern my entire state.

California, New York, Florida and Texas are not being bullied by Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota and Alaska. Neither are you.or I.
 
Back
Top Bottom