The US National Popular Vote is a little bit closer

[Toni]

Heh. I married me a city boy —from NYC, as a matter of fact. Now, after 45 years of marriage and more than 30 of those years in a small city surrounded by farmland…. He can correctly identify corn growing in the field,provided it is tall enough, sheep, cows and horses from the car as we drive past. We’re working on soybeans.

Your anecdote is adorable, but irrelevant.

Plenty of people who didn't grow up on a farm are capable of grasping the concerns of others. Frankly, more urban people are better at that level of empathy than rural people because they're more accustomed to getting along with people very different from them.
Tom

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

It is true that cities tend to have a greater racial diversity compared with suburban or rural areas. But that often varies by neighborhood. It sure wasn’t rural Mass where Louis Gates was arrested for breaking into his own home, reported by a white neighbor and taken into custody although he could prove it was his own home.

 

[TomC]

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

I do.

Try this on for size.
I'm gay and very out. Do you think rural folks are as accepting as urban folks?
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Heh. I married me a city boy —from NYC, as a matter of fact. Now, after 45 years of marriage and more than 30 of those years in a small city surrounded by farmland…. He can correctly identify corn growing in the field,provided it is tall enough, sheep, cows and horses from the car as we drive past. We’re working on soybeans.

City folks may have heard of farms but they mostly have either very romantic ideas of farm life or are completely clueless as to any of the issues.

So your husband didn't know there were corn, or cows in the country (or presumably racial minorities, or poor people, those being the more voting-relevant of your earlier claims) until he met you? It's only due to your testimony as a Country Person that he is able to visually distinguish a cow from a horse? Otherwise he'd be too stupid to figure that one out, is what you're saying? When he was watching Westerns growing up, he'd get all confused about why John Wayne kept referrring to his cow as a horse, and if he hadn't met you he'd still be in the dark? Is that what you're claiming? If so, I'd be interested to hear his own testimony as regards his astonishing and nearly unprecendented ignorance, rather than getting it through you. As it does not seem very likely to me.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

I do.

Try this on for size.
I'm gay and very out. Do you think rural folks are as accepting as urban folks?
Tom

I honestly think that a higher portion of rural people genuinely don't give a fuck who you fuck. But those who do object are more likely to be vocal about it. I think there's a larger portion of urban people who are less tolerant and more opposed to homosexuality... but they've been conditioned to keep their mouths shut.

I will say that in a highly populated area, it's easier for you to surround yourself exclusively with like-minded people than it is in sparsely populated areas. And I think a lot of people mistake their custom-fit echo chambers for being representative of the city as a whole. Just bear in mind that a city is more likely to be more racially and ethnically diverse... and also more likely to have a higher proportion of devoted catholic hispanics, orthodox jews, and muslims. And a whole lot of the black urban community is also very religious, and is on the whole less tolerant of homosexuality than many people assume.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because you can find a sizeable group of tolerant people in a city that it means the city as a whole is more tolerant. It's not, it's just less willing to say it out loud.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Heh. I married me a city boy —from NYC, as a matter of fact. Now, after 45 years of marriage and more than 30 of those years in a small city surrounded by farmland…. He can correctly identify corn growing in the field,provided it is tall enough, sheep, cows and horses from the car as we drive past. We’re working on soybeans.

Your anecdote is adorable, but irrelevant.

Plenty of people who didn't grow up on a farm are capable of grasping the concerns of others. Frankly, more urban people are better at that level of empathy than rural people because they're more accustomed to getting along with people very different from them.
Tom

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

It is true that cities tend to have a greater racial diversity compared with suburban or rural areas. But that often varies by neighborhood. It sure wasn’t rural Mass where Louis Gates was arrested for breaking into his own home, reported by a white neighbor and taken into custody although he could prove it was his own home.

Yeah, but he wasn't shot. So Massachusetts isn't racist. Really, that is more crap neighbors, not knowing their neighbors. If I saw a black male trying to break into several homes around me, I'd be alarmed because black people don't live in those houses. A couple other homes, I wouldn't be alarmed, but I'd double check it looked like who lived there. Granted, all black people look alike, so I guess Lebron James lives in several of the home around me.

Yeah, the urban talk smack on the rural, but let's be clear, the rural be talking the smack on the urbanites too.

 

[ZiprHead]

I honestly think that a higher portion of rural people genuinely don't give a fuck who you fuck. But those who do object are more likely to be vocal about it. I think there's a larger portion of urban people who are less tolerant and more opposed to homosexuality... but they've been conditioned to keep their mouths shut.

Both of my brothers are liberals who live in rural areas. Neither of them will express their feeling on political issues in their rural suroundings.

Oops. One of my brothers actually did so once. He was physically attacked for doing so.

 

[Toni]

Heh. I married me a city boy —from NYC, as a matter of fact. Now, after 45 years of marriage and more than 30 of those years in a small city surrounded by farmland…. He can correctly identify corn growing in the field,provided it is tall enough, sheep, cows and horses from the car as we drive past. We’re working on soybeans.

Your anecdote is adorable, but irrelevant.

Plenty of people who didn't grow up on a farm are capable of grasping the concerns of others. Frankly, more urban people are better at that level of empathy than rural people because they're more accustomed to getting along with people very different from them.
Tom

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

It is true that cities tend to have a greater racial diversity compared with suburban or rural areas. But that often varies by neighborhood. It sure wasn’t rural Mass where Louis Gates was arrested for breaking into his own home, reported by a white neighbor and taken into custody although he could prove it was his own home.

Yeah, but he wasn't shot. So Massachusetts isn't racist. Really, that is more crap neighbors, not knowing their neighbors. If I saw a black male trying to break into several homes around me, I'd be alarmed because black people don't live in those houses. A couple other homes, I wouldn't be alarmed, but I'd double check it looked like who lived there. Granted, all black people look alike, so I guess Lebron James lives in several of the home around me.

Yeah, the urban talk smack on the rural, but let's be clear, the rural be talking the smack on the urbanites too.

Shitty racist neighbors and shitty racist police.

I don’t know all of my neighbors well but I know them enough to know which house/apartment is theirs. Including recent additions to the neighborhood.

 

[Toni]

For the record, I’ve never said I was against eliminating the electoral college, but merely that I had concerns.

Good. And now you've voiced them. I should give up my hope for an equal vote because some people heard a conspiracy theory about a non-existent aqueduct. Because you're "concerned".

I get it. I’ll jes keep mah mouth shutter ‘lessen Ise be offendin’ mah betters.

Thankya Mr. massa man

 

[Politesse]

For the record, I’ve never said I was against eliminating the electoral college, but merely that I had concerns.

Good. And now you've voiced them. I should give up my hope for an equal vote because some people heard a conspiracy theory about a non-existent aqueduct. Because you're "concerned".

I get it. I’ll jes keep mah mouth shutter ‘lessen Ise be offendin’ mah betters.

Thankya Mr. massa man

And now we have unashamed racism. Great.

 

[Toni]

For the record, I’ve never said I was against eliminating the electoral college, but merely that I had concerns.

Good. And now you've voiced them. I should give up my hope for an equal vote because some people heard a conspiracy theory about a non-existent aqueduct. Because you're "concerned".

I get it. I’ll jes keep mah mouth shutter ‘lessen Ise be offendin’ mah betters.

Thankya Mr. massa man

And now we have unashamed racism. Great.

So much worse than telling someone to just shut up and let the menfolk talk. At least you recognize something is wrong.

 

[TomC]

And now we have unashamed racism. Great.

So much worse than telling someone to just shut up and let the menfolk talk. At least you recognize something is wrong.

You two are just so cute!
Tom

 

[Toni]

My apologies: long, bad day

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Heh. I married me a city boy —from NYC, as a matter of fact. Now, after 45 years of marriage and more than 30 of those years in a small city surrounded by farmland…. He can correctly identify corn growing in the field,provided it is tall enough, sheep, cows and horses from the car as we drive past. We’re working on soybeans. I was impressed the other day when he recognized a farmer was doing an early cutting of hay. That was a first! We even talked a little about the species of hay and advantages, etc. depending on the animal it’s intended to feed. He’s coming along.

City folks may have heard of farms but they mostly have either very romantic ideas of farm life or are completely clueless as to any of the issues.

I lived on the edge of large cities for 11 years. I watched the news, listened to people talk. They had heard of farms but that’s about as far as it went. I doubt very many are aware that cows have more than one stomach or how much manure one puts out or how long it takes to get a hog or a cow to market, or a crop of anything, for that matter. Although the popularity of farmer’s markets and the eat local movement ts have improved upon that.

Few people know the details of industries other than their own. Farming is an industry.

 

[Toni]

Heh. I married me a city boy —from NYC, as a matter of fact. Now, after 45 years of marriage and more than 30 of those years in a small city surrounded by farmland…. He can correctly identify corn growing in the field,provided it is tall enough, sheep, cows and horses from the car as we drive past. We’re working on soybeans. I was impressed the other day when he recognized a farmer was doing an early cutting of hay. That was a first! We even talked a little about the species of hay and advantages, etc. depending on the animal it’s intended to feed. He’s coming along.

City folks may have heard of farms but they mostly have either very romantic ideas of farm life or are completely clueless as to any of the issues.

I lived on the edge of large cities for 11 years. I watched the news, listened to people talk. They had heard of farms but that’s about as far as it went. I doubt very many are aware that cows have more than one stomach or how much manure one puts out or how long it takes to get a hog or a cow to market, or a crop of anything, for that matter. Although the popularity of farmer’s markets and the eat local movement ts have improved upon that.

Few people know the details of industries other than their own. Farming is an industry.

Point?

My post was a counter to the pinion that urbanites knew anything about farming. Mostly, they don’t. A depresssing number of people never consider where their food comes from, aside from some store.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

My post was a counter to the pinion that urbanites knew anything about farming. Mostly, they don’t. A depresssing number of people never consider where their food comes from, aside from some store.

Agree 1000 percent. I recall a canoe trip where cows had waded into the water. Maybe because the cows were mostly black the other group thought they were bears and called the outfitter to come rescue them from a "herd" of bears.

 

[Rhea]

But Toni, you have studiously ignored my inputs on the “rural picture” you are painting.

I live rural. I have no high speed internet, no cell service. I have no water service or sewer. My road doesn’t have pavement on it. People stop their trucks in the middle of the road to chat for 10 minutes. We have one cop, he works 8 hours a week. Our population density is 60 people per square mile. We have to drive 2 hours to get to a mall.

Can you please acknowledge that I currently live rural, have done so for more than 50 years, and I have a different opinion than you?

I cannot help but be concerned that lower population states (including MInnesota) will give up what little power and influence they have if we go to popular vote for POTUS elections. Why does this matter? Well, the concerns of large population states such as CA, TX, and NY are often quite different than those of less populous states. One issue that leaps to mind is with regards to water rights. CA would like to get its hands on water from the Great Lakes, rather than curb its own water use, an enormous amount of which is for agricultural crops.

Land doesn't vote.

Point?

How much space you have around you should not magnify your vote.

The framers of the constitution wanted to balance the rights of minorities against the rights of majority, which is why our constitution was written how it is. Never mind that they defined majority and minority including only white men. The principle stands.

The framers of the constitution thought it was okay to enslave people. Why does “the principle” stand? But morevoer, what is it about a **STATE** that makes it’s people a minority rather than their way of life? Why do we need to balance Wyomingness against Delawareness against New Yorkness? That’s a dusty artifact of early US tribalism. The ntruth is that the rural New Yorkers have more in common with the rural Wyomingites than the rural wyomingites have in common with the urban ones.

The founding fathers took great pains to balance the will of the majority against the rights and needs of the minority. I’m not interested in seeing that balance changed. No matter whether I am in ‘the majority’ or whether I am in the ‘minority.’

That seems so weird. Why. “That balance” is based on State Identity. What value does it have?

Please: that was just one example. The completely dismissive attitude towards rural areas permeates this forum and politics in general, not to mention all forms of media.

They are not dismissing it. (Remember, I’m rural - more rural than you, at least for the last 30 years). I hear what they are saying, why can’t you? What is it about my ruralness that entitles me to three votes? What is is about my ruralness that can’t compete on its merits and needs a cheat?

I can argue for my rural needs, and I do.

In each of those cases, there were/are local people staunchly defending/advocating for the jobs and money the big concerns will bring.

Eliminating the electoral vote will skew things even further in favor of the majority/large concerns.

Ugh, and then they got it.

And no, it will not “skew things even further in favor of the majority/large concerns,” if you are talking rural vs. urban, because TX, CA and NY have millions of rural people!!!!. The only thing that skews is that every American gets a vote.

There always was more diversity in rural and small town US than I s commonly represented in the media.

Uh, you have not seen my town. The media would have it exactly right. My town and all the other towns around me, outside of our “city.” I do not think you accurtely speak for all rural towns.

You might have better luck finding a New Yorker who has never left town, but I bet you'd still have your work cut out for you. I don't personally know very many New Yorkers, but I bet most of them have heard of farms.

A good portion of them live on farms.
Another good portion of them emigrated from foreign farms.

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

I do.
Folks around here have a really hard time grasping the concerns of black people, LGBTQ, foreign speaking people. Not because they are bad people (exceptions granted for my neighbors who fly conferedate flags) but because they have never had to rub elbows with these people.

Toni, these are the people who shut down our public library!!!!!! and we had to fight to get it reopened!
I love my town, but I am not blind to the attitudes it contains.

It is true that cities tend to have a greater racial diversity compared with suburban or rural areas. But that often varies by neighborhood. It sure wasn’t rural Mass where Louis Gates was arrested for breaking into his own home, reported by a white neighbor and taken into custody although he could prove it was his own home

Do you know what would have happened to Louis Gates here? Can I remind you of my neighbors who fly Confederate flags? Do you think the neighbors would “recognize” their black neighbor and not mistake him for some other black person doing something suspicious? I recall having some work friends, who moved here, come out to drink with us. But we made one of them change first. “You will not go into that bar in a polka-dot silk shirt, not if we want to leave without an ambulance.”


Anyway, this rural voice wants an end to electoral college. My rural vote should be one vote.

 

[TomC]

My post was a counter to the pinion that urbanites knew anything about farming. Mostly, they don’t. A depresssing number of people never consider where their food comes fro

Given the thread topic, it looks more like protecting your current privilege. There's plenty of stuff urbanites are more familiar with than ruralites, in general.

Maybe y'all should move to the suburbs?
Only not mine, because I like it as it is.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

Anyway... I am opposed to going to a pure popular vote while also having FPTP voting system.

 

[TomC]

Anyway... I am opposed to going to a pure popular vote while also having FPTP voting system.

I get that. There's plenty of better options than the primitive "democratic systems technology" we've got.
But are they feasible, given everything?
Is the perfect the enemy of the good in this scenario?

I dunno, but the current system can be hugely improved upon, without a Constitutional Amendment and all the problems that would entail. So that's what I support.
Tom

 

[Toni]

But Toni, you have studiously ignored my inputs on the “rural picture” you are painting.

I live rural. I have no high speed internet, no cell service. I have no water service or sewer. My road doesn’t have pavement on it. People stop their trucks in the middle of the road to chat for 10 minutes. We have one cop, he works 8 hours a week. Our population density is 60 people per square mile. We have to drive 2 hours to get to a mall.

Can you please acknowledge that I currently live rural, have done so for more than 50 years, and I have a different opinion than you?

I cannot help but be concerned that lower population states (including MInnesota) will give up what little power and influence they have if we go to popular vote for POTUS elections. Why does this matter? Well, the concerns of large population states such as CA, TX, and NY are often quite different than those of less populous states. One issue that leaps to mind is with regards to water rights. CA would like to get its hands on water from the Great Lakes, rather than curb its own water use, an enormous amount of which is for agricultural crops.

Land doesn't vote.

Point?

How much space you have around you should not magnify your vote.

The framers of the constitution wanted to balance the rights of minorities against the rights of majority, which is why our constitution was written how it is. Never mind that they defined majority and minority including only white men. The principle stands.

The framers of the constitution thought it was okay to enslave people. Why does “the principle” stand? But morevoer, what is it about a **STATE** that makes it’s people a minority rather than their way of life? Why do we need to balance Wyomingness against Delawareness against New Yorkness? That’s a dusty artifact of early US tribalism. The ntruth is that the rural New Yorkers have more in common with the rural Wyomingites than the rural wyomingites have in common with the urban ones.

The founding fathers took great pains to balance the will of the majority against the rights and needs of the minority. I’m not interested in seeing that balance changed. No matter whether I am in ‘the majority’ or whether I am in the ‘minority.’

That seems so weird. Why. “That balance” is based on State Identity. What value does it have?

Please: that was just one example. The completely dismissive attitude towards rural areas permeates this forum and politics in general, not to mention all forms of media.

They are not dismissing it. (Remember, I’m rural - more rural than you, at least for the last 30 years). I hear what they are saying, why can’t you? What is it about my ruralness that entitles me to three votes? What is is about my ruralness that can’t compete on its merits and needs a cheat?

I can argue for my rural needs, and I do.

In each of those cases, there were/are local people staunchly defending/advocating for the jobs and money the big concerns will bring.

Eliminating the electoral vote will skew things even further in favor of the majority/large concerns.

Ugh, and then they got it.

And no, it will not “skew things even further in favor of the majority/large concerns,” if you are talking rural vs. urban, because TX, CA and NY have millions of rural people!!!!. The only thing that skews is that every American gets a vote.

There always was more diversity in rural and small town US than I s commonly represented in the media.

Uh, you have not seen my town. The media would have it exactly right. My town and all the other towns around me, outside of our “city.” I do not think you accurtely speak for all rural towns.

You might have better luck finding a New Yorker who has never left town, but I bet you'd still have your work cut out for you. I don't personally know very many New Yorkers, but I bet most of them have heard of farms.

A good portion of them live on farms.
Another good portion of them emigrated from foreign farms.

I don’t find urbanites more able to grasp the concerns of others than rural people.

I do.
Folks around here have a really hard time grasping the concerns of black people, LGBTQ, foreign speaking people. Not because they are bad people (exceptions granted for my neighbors who fly conferedate flags) but because they have never had to rub elbows with these people.

Toni, these are the people who shut down our public library!!!!!! and we had to fight to get it reopened!
I love my town, but I am not blind to the attitudes it contains.

It is true that cities tend to have a greater racial diversity compared with suburban or rural areas. But that often varies by neighborhood. It sure wasn’t rural Mass where Louis Gates was arrested for breaking into his own home, reported by a white neighbor and taken into custody although he could prove it was his own home

Do you know what would have happened to Louis Gates here? Can I remind you of my neighbors who fly Confederate flags? Do you think the neighbors would “recognize” their black neighbor and not mistake him for some other black person doing something suspicious? I recall having some work friends, who moved here, come out to drink with us. But we made one of them change first. “You will not go into that bar in a polka-dot silk shirt, not if we want to leave without an ambulance.”


Anyway, this rural voice wants an end to electoral college. My rural vote should be one vote.

No one—and I mean no one has the equivalent of 3 votes because of where they live!

Electoral votes are based on the number of representatives which are sent to Congress. No one is objecting to CA having more representatives than Montana. Why should CA have 25+ times the representation that Montana does? Why do Californians have /5 times the representation in Congress that people from Montana do?

Obviously it is because California’s population is much greater than Montana’s and there is a minimum number of Congress people/state who are sent to DC.

Every single day, each state gets exactly the same number of Senators working to represent its entire population. Every single day, each state gets a proportional number ( but at least 2) members of co guess working for their interests.

Once every 4 years, the electoral college, whose numbers are based on population as are members of Congress, comes into play. Each state gets to determine whether and to what extent the electors are bound to the popular vote, and how the electors are chosen. I would be in favor of making that more uniform.

In almost all elections, the electoral college votes are in agreement with the popular vote.