The usual hypocrites blowing huge amounts of carbon and hot air around

[Bomb#20]

The facts speak for themselves. No one in the history of our planet has done more towards improvement of the environment than Musk.

Leo Szilard.

I assume this refers to Szilard's alleged 1934 invention of a power-generating nuclear reactor.

[Leo Szilard] conceived the nuclear chain reaction in 1933,

No, I was referring to his 1933 conception of the nuclear chain reaction. It was just a bit of snark in support of bilby's observation that decarbonizing electricity generation does vastly more good for the environment than Musk's coal-fired cars.

But if you really want to get into it...

patented the idea in 1936, and in late 1939 wrote the letter for Albert Einstein's signature that resulted in the Manhattan Project that built the atomic bomb.

<snip>
But if scientific credit for instigating the Manhattan Project is to be given to a single man, perhaps it should go to Leo Szilard.

Bingo. No Szilard, no Manhattan Project. No Manhattan Project, no Fermi in the squash court.

But if scientific credit for instigating the Manhattan Project is to be given to a single man, perhaps it should go to Leo Szilard.

Having read The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes, I would agree to this statement enthusiastically.

Likewise. Excellent book, as are all his other books that I've read.

Perhaps the reference then means that had the bomb not been invented neither would atomic power plants? But that's likely not the case, and it is arguable that the focus on the enrichment of weapons grade fissile material may have been a bit of a setback to nuclear power, had that latter been invented on its own for purely energy generation purposes.

Possibly; but it's customary to give credit to the guy who had an idea first even if it's an idea that would have occurred to others sooner or later. And nuclear reactors surely were invented sooner than they would have been without the Manhattan Project. (Moreover, the WWII-era reactors tended to be breeder reactors, focused on making plutonium from natural uranium. So if making enriched uranium was a setback, it wasn't one necessitated by war considerations.)

 

[Bomb#20]

@RVonse -- Don't forget to also thank goodness for progressive politicians like Gavin Newsom whose rules and subsidies mean that the U.S.A. is the biggest market by far for Elon's wonderful cars.

Gavin Newsom and the progressive California politicians he's following in the footsteps of have been obstacles to environmental improvement.

I already noted that EVs are carts before the horse. We are what, no closer than 20 years for electricity production sources making a difference, allowing EVs to be better than ICE? And I've got to assume you have supported the opposition candidate to the guy who wanted to raise CAFE and mileage standards. It is very likely Honda and Toyota made much larger differences in emission pollution with their hybrids than Musk has with Tesla.

^^^^ This ^^^^
Newsom mandating all-electric is just the current step in California's lyingly-named "zero emission vehicle" plan, which goes back to the 1990s. It was already known to be a mistake as far back as 2002, as per a Rand Corporation study.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1578.html

"...instead of requiring manufacturers to meet emission reduction targets with particular vehicle technologies, California should eliminate the requirement for zero emission vehicles, tighten emission standards on light-duty vehicles, and focus on setting emission performance standards."​

Leaning on car companies to produce zero tailpipe emission vehicles that burn coal can only have served to distract them from pursuing hybrids, which are a superior technology in every way and will be until much better batteries are invented.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All I have to contribute to this discussion is two words:

China
India

North America and Europe have been belching CO2 into the atmosphere for 150 years. So enough of this, but China and India. They are only trying to catch up to our emissions. And this ignores the outsourcing of our own pollution to China via production of the stuff we use.. We only switched over to natural gas in lieu of coal because we stumbled onto fracking methods to get our gas out and it was real cheap. Not because we felt a moral obligation to do so.

 

[RVonse]

Musk is most certainly responsible for the hardest part of creating a car company, cash flow. Musk is hardly this engineering genius some mistake him to be, but he was able to help Tesla deal with the absurd cash loss that is needed to start a car company from scratch.

That is much more than anyone else in the world (myself included) actually did before Musk.

I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I kinda get the feeling that Musk actually likes the WEF.

I'm pretty sure the guy on the laptop was the current president of Argentina who was seriously chastising WEF, and for very valid reasons. Same as this guy did.

 

[laughing dog]

All I have to contribute to this discussion is two words:

China
India

What is it, exactly, that makes you think that two countries are the problem?

They've huge populations that were desperately poor for most of history. They contributed very little to the current environmental mess that the Human Race is dealing with. Their per capita environmental footprint is a fraction of the U.S. , even now.
Why is their names all you can think of to contribute?
Maybe because you consider yourself entitled to complain about poor people trying to better their circumstances, the same way we did throughout the last century plus?
Tom

China is a major belcher of CO2. India is far behind. As far as the climate goes, their relative poverty is irrelevant to the issue. Carbon from China has the same effect on the global climate as does carbon from the US or Denmark.

Per capita emissions are not a very good indicator. China's are about half of the US's, but China has more than 4 times as many people. Despite China's and India's rhetoric, they are ramping up use of coal to generate power.

One thing to remember, is that one reason China and the US are major emitters of carbon is that they are the two biggest exporters of goods and services in the world. In essence, one force behind their emissions is demand from other other countries.


Until the world learns how to pull carbon out the atmosphere in a cost and environmental effective ways, curtailing emissions is the way to ameliorate or avert catastrophic climate change in the long run. That requires everyone, especially the major emitters, to work to reduce their emissions. That includes poorer countries, like China and India. Letting poor countries off the hook because of the past may seem "fair" but it really will make averting long run climate difficulties much more problematic.

 

[Ford]

The world is grateful to enjoy or have enjoyed people like the Buddha, the Baby Jesus, Elon Musk and Ayn Rand whose farts are so fragrant that people come from miles around just to smell and enjoy them.

My vanity has a good selection of the Elon essences, right next to my spray bottle of Jared. I suggest Savage Musk, with hints of Chipotle, or the Planetary series. Musk Uranus is a good, strong, manly spray. Musk Asteroid will really open up your sinuses. Musk Venus Envy will make her turn her head as you go by. Make a statement. Wear Elon.

The funny thing about all this is that (as mentioned above) Elon belches as much or more carbon personally than Al Gore and John Kerry combined (if we're talking private jet travel alone) but for some reason he's credited with personally saving the planet. Which is odd because the right wing is still struggling to even admit that human-caused climate change is a real thing (let alone a problem), but then along comes a billionaire and suddenly the same people who mocked Greta Thunberg are having Elon on their talk shows. The same people who scoffed at Gore and brought snowballs into Congress are like "wow, Elon sure is doing a great thing fighting climate change!"

Weird that his elevation as savior 'o the planet just happens to have more or less coincided with his ascension as an alt-right "celebrity."

Maybe Al Gore could have made a little more progress if - instead of spending decades trying to raise awareness of climate change - had bought a social media company and used it to platform alt-right figures and straight up neo-Nazis.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Musk is most certainly responsible for the hardest part of creating a car company, cash flow. Musk is hardly this engineering genius some mistake him to be, but he was able to help Tesla deal with the absurd cash loss that is needed to start a car company from scratch.

That is much more than anyone else in the world (myself included) actually did before Musk.

I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I kinda get the feeling that Musk actually likes the WEF.

I'm pretty sure the guy on the laptop was the current president of Argentina who was seriously chastising WEF, and for very valid reasons. Same as this guy did.

You mean this guy:

Elon Musk endorses Argentina President Milei's fiery WEF speech, calls it a 'good explanation of what...'

Tesla CEO Elon Musk on Thursday heaped praises on the Argentinian President, Javier Milei, for backing free markets and lambasting socialism.

www.hindustantimes.com

He was AT the WEF giving a speech to cronies. It was a pro-capitalist, anti-socialist speech. Most of the attendees at Davos are corporate, not socialists. Some are politicians and some are academics, but again most are corporate leaders. So when a guy like that says anti-socialist things in his speech to his fellows, he is pretty much preaching to the choir. Had Musk been there at the WEF, he'd be clapping with other corporate leaders.

So far as the WEF and environmentalism, which is what started the thread, yes, most of the people there lately are going after global warming and this is because as you stated, it ought not be a left or right issue. For example, Modi (a Trump ally) and also Bolsonaro (another Trump ally) both also gave speeches at the WEF. And both of them made mention of doing something about the issue.

As far as John Kerry, he doesn't own a private jet nor fly on them:

U.S. climate envoy John Kerry says it's a 'stupid' lie that he regularly takes private jets around the world

The grilling by House Republicans drew gasps when Rep. Scott Perry accused Kerry and climate scientists of "grifting" over a "problem that doesn't exist."

fortune.com

But guess who does own private jets, plural, i.e. multiple private jets? Elon Musk:

Elon Musk's private jets took 441 flights this year

It isn't easy running six companies, but Elon Musk's fleet of private jets certainly helps.

www.businessinsider.com

Last year, there were 441 flights on his jets. That's more than days in the year.

Is he trying to be that rich guy from Contact?

 

[bilby]

Electric vehicles don't "remove carbon from the planet".

They don't by themselves add carbon to the planet.

Yes, they do. They're not built from unicorn dust in a factory powered by pixies. They're made of steel and lithium and plastics, in a factory powered by electricity.

And the source of electricity has nothing to do with this.

It has everything to do with this.

Tesla cars by themselves simply do not put carbon into the atmosphere because they do not burn carbon into tail pipes.

Sure. And turning on the lights doesn't "burn carbon into tail pipes" either. But it does require a power grid that puts plenty of cabon dioxide into the atmosphere.

Your argument is like a sniper saying "I couldn't possibly have killed him, I was half a mile away when he died!".

Just because the emissions don't happen right next to the vehicle, that doesnot mean that the vehicle didn't directly cause the emissions.

If the generation of electricity is wrong for the environment today you can not put that on Musk.

You can, if he's encouraging more electricity use; For example, if he were promoting electric cars...

It simply has not caught up to Musk and it will take other leaders and entrepreneurs to realize the final goal of sourcing green electricity. Maybe the John Kerry's should talk about the generation of electricity at their Davos meeting

What makes you think they didn't?

instead of how everyone besides them is ruining the environment by not eating bug protein.

I don't think you have the slightest clue what is discussed at these meetings. Seriously. You appear (yet again) to be giving credence to conspiracist nutters who, in a kinder world, would be accommodated in secure psychiatric facilities, rather than writing nutty blog posts.

 

[bilby]

Our carbon free future will involve BOTH electric vehicles but hydrogen based ones as well.

I doubt it. I suspect that both are impractical - electric vehicles because their charge rates are too low (a gasoline pump transfers energy at a rate of about 20MW), and both types because they are inherently dangerous, and because they will require expensive and widespread infrastructure to support them.

The fuelling infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles already exists; Putting synthetic fuel into those supply chains, to replace fossil fuel, won't require significant new infrastuctural expenditure.

These white elephant technologies are just a symptom of the human tendency to look at a problem, and say "Something must be done; This is something; Therefore this must be done!".

 

[Patooka]

Our carbon free future will involve BOTH electric vehicles but hydrogen based ones as well

What the ever loving fuck does this even mean? Do you honestly believe electricity is an element like hydrogen? Or do you believe a combustion engine that uses hydrogen as fuel in the same manner as gasoline is a good idea?

You know, for someone who allegedly claims they "actually support protecting the environment", you come dangerously close to sounding like a snake oil salesman who uses buzzwords as a substitute for solutions. Seriously, your arguments come off sounding like, "Elon Musk is sooo good, his cars have electrolytes!"

 

[bilby]

"Elon Musk is sooo good, his cars have electrolytes!"

They do.

Tesla car batteries use Lithium hexafluorophosphate dissolved in organic carbonates as their electrolyte.

It's what plants* crave.








*Power plants

 

[Ford]

I don't think you have the slightest clue what is discussed at these meetings. Seriously. You appear (yet again) to be giving credence to conspiracist nutters who, in a kinder world, would be accommodated in secure psychiatric facilities, rather than writing nutty blog posts.

I wonder if anyone who rails against "the elites flying private jets to Davos" has even the slightest idea that far less publicized meetings are held every day in the boardrooms of fossil fuel companies which have a far greater impact on global emissions. Even if we were to concede that these "climate summits" were nothing more than an opportunity for high profile liberals to pat each other on the back for coming up with some milquetoast proposals that polluters like the US, China, and India will never follow, it doesn't make them even remotely as sinister as the far more wealthy CEOs clapping each other on the back for selling "clean coal" or developing ad campaigns to sell Chevron or Exxon as "environmentally responsible" companies who aren't actually trying to extract every last bit of fuel from the planet and who cares if we fuck over the future...we've got quarterly profits to think of!

Like...oh, I dunno...this:



But hey...Elon Musk!

 

[bilby]

I wonder if anyone who rails against "the elites flying private jets to Davos" has even the slightest idea that far less publicized meetings are held every day in the boardrooms of fossil fuel companies which have a far greater impact on global emissions. Even if we were to concede that these "climate summits" were nothing more than an opportunity for high profile liberals to pat each other on the back for coming up with some milquetoast proposals that polluters like the US, China, and India will never follow, it doesn't make them even remotely as sinister as the far more wealthy CEOs clapping each other on the back for selling "clean coal" or developing ad campaigns to sell Chevron or Exxon as "environmentally responsible" companies who aren't actually trying to extract every last bit of fuel from the planet and who cares if we fuck over the future...we've got quarterly profits to think of!

Davos isn't a climate summit; It's an economics summit.

A lot of people seem to be conflating COP with WEF, but they are totally different meetings, with different agendas (albeit with some overlap in attendees).

WEF is about profits, growth, and financial management of the world's economy; If they mention climate, that's a sign that even the big capitalist bastards are no longer completely ignoring that issue, which is a good thing.

COP is about climate; That they worry about economic consequences of climate action is a sign that the big capitalist bastards still have a lot of power in the world, which is (up to a point) also a good thing (certainly if the alternative is to give power to people who genuinely believe that wind and solar power can supply a modern society with all its energy needs).

 

[ZiprHead]

You mean this guy:

Elon Musk endorses Argentina President Milei's fiery WEF speech, calls it a 'good explanation of what...'

Tesla CEO Elon Musk on Thursday heaped praises on the Argentinian President, Javier Milei, for backing free markets and lambasting socialism.

www.hindustantimes.com

He was AT the WEF giving a speech to cronies. It was a pro-capitalist, anti-socialist speech. Most of the attendees at Davos are corporate, not socialists. Some are politicians and some are academics, but again most are corporate leaders. So when a guy like that says anti-socialist things in his speech to his fellows, he is pretty much preaching to the choir. Had Musk been there at the WEF, he'd be clapping with other corporate leaders.

So far as the WEF and environmentalism, which is what started the thread, yes, most of the people there lately are going after global warming and this is because as you stated, it ought not be a left or right issue. For example, Modi (a Trump ally) and also Bolsonaro (another Trump ally) both also gave speeches at the WEF. And both of them made mention of doing something about the issue.

As far as John Kerry, he doesn't own a private jet nor fly on them:

Poor Elon doesn't like socialism.

“Musk’s companies together had received at least $4.9 billion in government funds and support by 2015, according to an investigation from the Los Angeles Times published that year, suggesting that his company’s may also qualify to receive the label.

The organization Good Jobs First has a complete list of 110 subsidies awarded for Tesla alone dating back to 2007.

Other government money Tesla has received includes a $465 million loan from the U.S. Department of Energy to sell its fuel-efficient cars in 2010, according to the department’s website.”

Read the full story at UPI.

Elon Musk's Twitter marks BBC, NPR as 'government funded' but not Tesla, SpaceX - Good Jobs First

Elon Musk's Twitter marks BBC, NPR as 'government funded' but not Tesla, SpaceX - Good Jobs First

goodjobsfirst.org

 

[RVonse]

As far as John Kerry, he doesn't own a private jet nor fly on them:

U.S. climate envoy John Kerry says it's a 'stupid' lie that he regularly takes private jets around the world

The grilling by House Republicans drew gasps when Rep. Scott Perry accused Kerry and climate scientists of "grifting" over a "problem that doesn't exist."

fortune.com

But guess who does own private jets, plural, i.e. multiple private jets? Elon Musk:

Elon Musk's private jets took 441 flights this year

It isn't easy running six companies, but Elon Musk's fleet of private jets certainly helps.

www.businessinsider.com

Last year, there were 441 flights on his jets. That's more than days in the year.

Is he trying to be that rich guy from Contact?

You are probably wrong about Kerry.

John Kerry's family private jet emitted over 300 metric tons of carbon since Biden took office

A private jet owned by the wife of John Kerry, who President Biden made climate envoy in January 2021, has emitted a whopping 715,886 pounds of carbon dioxide since Biden took office.

www.foxnews.com

But to be fair about this, our totally shit media makes getting to the bottom of even simple facts like whether or not someone actually owns a jet extremely difficult. Without depending on any facts we do not know, I have to say that it sounds more reasonable that Kerry does actually fly a personal jet if only due to his refusal to directly refute those criticisms when asked. That is pretty telling IMO.

With regards to Musk, it is not fair to use your (Contact) argument for the same reason you can not use the rocket launching argument.
Simply because there is no other practical solution for Musk allowing him to run his 3 companies without flying private. One does have to wonder how he does that even flying private. But in any case, its a totally different situation for a WEF meeting where attendees would easily and practically transport themselves in business class on a low carbon airline. Furthermore (unlike the attendees), Musk is not making statements about how everyone else should lose freedom while he rides on his jet. He is not advocating for others to make hard choices in order to reduce carbon and instead attempting to sell his ideas on the open capital market. That is the right way forward.

 

[RVonse]

If they mention climate, that's a sign that even the big capitalist bastards are no longer completely ignoring that issue, which is a good thing.

No. It is a sign they know all the liberals will lap it up like puppy dogs which is a bad thing.

 

[Ford]

If they mention climate, that's a sign that even the big capitalist bastards are no longer completely ignoring that issue, which is a good thing.

No. It is a sign they know all the liberals will lap it up like puppy dogs which is a bad thing.

Just to be clear, you're not quoting me, but Bilby.

That said...thank you for copping to the fact that the big capitalist bastards don't give a flying fuck about the climate, and will literally do anything to keep screwing over future generations.

 

[laughing dog]

As far as John Kerry, he doesn't own a private jet nor fly on them:

U.S. climate envoy John Kerry says it's a 'stupid' lie that he regularly takes private jets around the world

The grilling by House Republicans drew gasps when Rep. Scott Perry accused Kerry and climate scientists of "grifting" over a "problem that doesn't exist."

fortune.com

But guess who does own private jets, plural, i.e. multiple private jets? Elon Musk:

Elon Musk's private jets took 441 flights this year

It isn't easy running six companies, but Elon Musk's fleet of private jets certainly helps.

www.businessinsider.com

Last year, there were 441 flights on his jets. That's more than days in the year.

Is he trying to be that rich guy from Contact?

You are probably wrong about Kerry.

John Kerry's family private jet emitted over 300 metric tons of carbon since Biden took office

A private jet owned by the wife of John Kerry, who President Biden made climate envoy in January 2021, has emitted a whopping 715,886 pounds of carbon dioxide since Biden took office.

www.foxnews.com

You should read more carefully. John Kerry does not own a private jet - his wife (a heir to the Heinz ketchup money.

I find it hilarious that you write about shit media, but use a source one of the shittiest examples of media in the USA.

 

[ZiprHead]

You should read more carefully. John Kerry does not own a private jet - his wife (a heir to the Heinz ketchup money.

And they rent it out to other. Only seldom do they use it themselves.

 

[Patooka]

Musk is not making statements about how everyone else should lose freedom while he rides on his jet

Okay, now point out who is.

With regards to Musk, it is not fair to use your (Contact) argument for the same reason you can not use the rocket launching argument.

It's not fair to poke holes in your logic? Sorry, I've got some bad news for you. So long as you keep on listening to nothing but right wing grifters like Russel Brand, Jimmy Dore and Patrick Bet-David, you're going to wind up incredibly misinformed.