The vanguard of the Caravan is already in Mexico City, more than halfway to the border

[Max Rockatansky]

You're blaming the Democrats for the invasion of Iraq?

That was totally a Republican idea. And the attack was ordered by a Republican president.

And they borrowed trillions to pay for it.

That is passing the bill on to future Americans.

That is how Republicans operate.

They lower taxes and massively increase spending.

That is what you support?

Dude, relax and read with a clear mind: I'm saying Congress is responsible for the Iraq War; specifically all who voted for it.

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237
https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-joint-resolution/114

Also, it would help for one to understand how the US government works and the powers of each branch.

Congress was lied to.

Children tell lies, only stupid adults fall for it. Congress, specifically the Intelligence and Armed Services committees, had the same intel Bush had. He saw it one way and Congress just bent over like their spines were gone and accepted it because they were afraid to stand up like adults and disagree.

 

[untermensche]

Congress was lied to.

Children tell lies, only stupid adults fall for it. Congress, specifically the Intelligence and Armed Services committees, had the same intel Bush had. He saw it one way and Congress just bent over like their spines were gone and accepted it because they were afraid to stand up like adults and disagree.

Bush had no intel.

The Congress had no intel.

Colin Powell spewed lie after lie in the UN. The rest of the world knew it was a pack of lies. Weapon's inspectors knew it was a pack of lies. It was well known that there were no WMD in Iraq. There was no evidence of any.

The nation was lied to.

To drive it to war.

Every casualty was a massive war crime.

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, and many more deserved to hang just as much as German's hung after WWII.

There is no power to bring justice to the situation however.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Congress was lied to.

Children tell lies, only stupid adults fall for it. Congress, specifically the Intelligence and Armed Services committees, had the same intel Bush had. He saw it one way and Congress just bent over like their spines were gone and accepted it because they were afraid to stand up like adults and disagree.

Congress isn't monolithic.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Congress was lied to.

Children tell lies, only stupid adults fall for it. Congress, specifically the Intelligence and Armed Services committees, had the same intel Bush had. He saw it one way and Congress just bent over like their spines were gone and accepted it because they were afraid to stand up like adults and disagree.

Congress isn't monolithic.

Correct. What does that have to do with the fact the Iraq Resolution was passed with the help of 82 Democrats in the House and, most importantly, 29 Democrat Senators including Hillary and John Kerry?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Congress isn't monolithic.

Correct. What does that have to do with the fact the Iraq Resolution was passed with the help of 82 Democrats in the House and, most importantly, 29 Democrat Senators including Hillary and John Kerry?

They are not all spineless. That is ideological claptrap. They were lied to. That is certain. Were some spineless, too? Yes, sure. And some trusting. And some worried about their families. Diversity.

 

[untermensche]

Congress isn't monolithic.

Correct. What does that have to do with the fact the Iraq Resolution was passed with the help of 82 Democrats in the House and, most importantly, 29 Democrat Senators including Hillary and John Kerry?

The Iraq Resolution was not a Declaration of War. It said war should be a last resort. It was far from a last resort. It was not needed in the slightest bit. Unless your goal was just to torture millions and destabilize the region.

War was declared by Bush and by Bush alone.

And there was absolutely no reason to order it.

 

[untermensche]

Congress isn't monolithic.

Correct. What does that have to do with the fact the Iraq Resolution was passed with the help of 82 Democrats in the House and, most importantly, 29 Democrat Senators including Hillary and John Kerry?

They are not all spineless. That is ideological claptrap. They were lied to. That is certain. Were some spineless, too? Yes, sure. And some trusting. And some worried about their families. Diversity.

It isn't being spineless.

It is putting position and privilege over the lives of your fellow citizens.

It is treason.

 

[Patooka]

Does anyone seriously believe they can change any ones mind about the lead-up to a war that occured 15 years ago?

Oh, and Max, if you are going to spin the whole "everyone had the same intelligence" bullshit, you might want to go to this website, type in "Paul Wolfowitz" and "Office of Special Plans" and hit enter.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Congress isn't monolithic.

Correct. What does that have to do with the fact the Iraq Resolution was passed with the help of 82 Democrats in the House and, most importantly, 29 Democrat Senators including Hillary and John Kerry?

They are not all spineless. That is ideological claptrap. They were lied to. That is certain. Were some spineless, too? Yes, sure. And some trusting. And some worried about their families. Diversity.

Okay, I'll grant you the possibility that they were just fucking stupid and incompetent, not spineless cowards. Again. there were four committees that had the same information as the WH. So if they weren't spineless, they had to be incompetent.

 

[untermensche]

Does anyone seriously believe they can change any ones mind about the lead-up to a war that occured 15 years ago?

Oh, and Max, if you are going to spin the whole "everyone had the same intelligence" bullshit, you might want to go to this website, type in "Paul Wolfowitz" and "Office of Special Plans" and hit enter.

There sometimes are these psychotic cliques of people that form and feed into one another.

This small group of neo-cons asked Clinton to invade Iraq.

On 911 Rumsfeld asked for plans to invade Iraq.

It was all about maintaining the position of the US in the 21st Century. Madness!! Greed and absolute corruption!!

It had zero to do with terrorism or WMD or any real threat.

And everything they predicted was wrong.

So they just started rounding up people and torturing them.

One of the most evil groups of people to have ever existed.

 

[skepticalbip]

They are not all spineless. That is ideological claptrap. They were lied to. That is certain. Were some spineless, too? Yes, sure. And some trusting. And some worried about their families. Diversity.

Okay, I'll grant you the possibility that they were just fucking stupid and incompetent, not spineless cowards. Again. there were four committees that had the same information as the WH. So if they weren't spineless, they had to be incompetent.

They were politicians doing what politicians do - voting the way they think will advance their political career regardless of what they knew the facts of the world situation to be.

 

[untermensche]

When it means sending people to die it is not just something people do.

It is something traitors do.

The traitors were so numerous they were beyond prosecution.

 

[Ford]

So it looks like the old talking points are making the rounds again. When the Iraq War began to go south (which happened pretty quickly), the Republicans decided on a new strategy. Not for the occupation - that was already FUBAR - but for the folks at home:

The Iraq War was all Hillary Clinton's fault. And John Kerry, too.

How do you do this? Constantly repeat the fact that they (and a lot of other Democrats) voted in favor of the resolution to use force in Iraq. Whenever Iraq is brought up, remind everyone that the Democrats voted for it. This ignores three very pertinent facts:

1. The Democrats were not in control of Congress.

2. The majority of Democrats in the House voted against, 21 Democratic Senators voted against, while only 7 Republicans in either house voted nay.

3. While Congress approved the use of military force, Congress cannot conduct wars. The Executive is in charge of that, and I think we all know which party controlled the White House.

The Bush administration launched the war and mishandled the occupation. They are wholly responsible for the conduct of the war. The effort to pin the blame on Congressional Democrats is a deliberate attempt to shift responsibility away from the Executive, and is complete and utter bullshit.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

They are not all spineless. That is ideological claptrap. They were lied to. That is certain. Were some spineless, too? Yes, sure. And some trusting. And some worried about their families. Diversity.

Okay, I'll grant you the possibility that they were just fucking stupid and incompetent, not spineless cowards. Again. there were four committees that had the same information as the WH. So if they weren't spineless, they had to be incompetent.

They were politicians doing what politicians do - voting the way they think will advance their political career regardless of what they knew the facts of the world situation to be.

I hate to be cynical, but must agree that was a major part of the problem. The Iraq Resolution was only a couple years after 9/11. The Republicans successfully cowed the Democrats into believing they'd be labeled unAmerican if they didn't vote for the bill. Ergo, why I think they were spineless cowards...but agree they were probably just looking out for their own careers.

Bringing this back to the topic: too many people are using immigrants as "the enemy". Trump is great at bullshitting his fans but the Left is too cowardly to call things they way they are. Instead of just being against Trump, they need to start pushing for reasonable immigration reform, not just "open borders" or treating everyone who says they're a refugee as a refugee.

Additionally, the Democrats need to grow a spine and be part of an international movement to fix the problems causing refugees. Hopefully this is just diplomacy, but if it means military action, then the Democrats need to push for what needs to be done.

 

[laughing dog]

The fact they are hiking to the US and demanding to be let in.

First, the US is not the world. Second, asking for asylum is not a demand. Would you like amend your claim so that it is consistent with what you think?

My post is consistent. As noted previously, refugees are limited by geography. Are you saying none of those who’ve come previously nor any on the present group think they have a right to asylum, jobs or anything else? Would you care to amend your claims that none have done so nor will they again?

You have not shown that these migrants are demanding anything. Nor have you shown that hiking to the USA means that they expect the world owes them something.

But I do agree that your post and response are consistent – pure handwaved assertions of fact with no logic nor evidence.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

My post is consistent. As noted previously, refugees are limited by geography. Are you saying none of those who’ve come previously nor any on the present group think they have a right to asylum, jobs or anything else? Would you care to amend your claims that none have done so nor will they again?

You have not shown that these migrants are demanding anything. Nor have you shown that hiking to the USA means that they expect the world owes them something.

But I do agree that your post and response are consistent – pure handwaved assertions of fact with no logic nor evidence.

Correct, and I don’t need to. Are you saying we have to let them in? Do we owe them anything? What does the Constitution say about this?

 

[Politesse]

What does the Constitution say about this?

That it is at the discretion of the government - and that we are the government. It is up to us to define what sort of nation we desire to be.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Are you saying we have to let them in?

"Have to" as in forced to? Are you seriously asking that question?

Do we owe them anything?

Compassion. Assistance. Due process. Humanity. And only because Trump is a worthless, evil piece of shit, planting lies and fear mongering in the minds of ignorant, easily manipulated followers, so much so that I can't believe it actually needs to be pointed out, the assumption of innocence until proven guilty.

What does the Constitution say about this?

What does your cat say about this? It's just as relevant a question as the one you just asked.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

What does the Constitution say about this?

That it is at the discretion of the government - and that we are the government. It is up to us to define what sort of nation we desire to be.

Agreed albeit we still have to abide by the Consitutiton. If the anchor baby clause is outdated, which I would agree it is, then the only way to change it is with a constitiutional amendment, not a bill or an EO.

 

[Politesse]

I disagree that there is an "anchor baby clause". There is a definition of what a citizen is or should be, and in this and many other cases, thousands have fought and died for the right to demand their due representation in government under its auspices. That is it is a natural born right and not the inherited province of social elites alone is only one aspect of that whole, but I am not interested in seeing it dismantled. I know my Roman history, and we are their gradnchildren.