There are No Conscientious Explanations to Disprove the Proof for God and Jesus Being God

[Kharakov]

I don't get this whole something from nothing claim- I've seen this comment a few times recently on the forum, and I'm wondering at its justification? Maybe a new thread? It's just something that I'd like to read more about- see if there is any logical loophole, or interesting trick, that can be used to justify it?

Obviously if there is nothing, it will not give arise to anything. If fact, the only thing nothing does is it utterly doesn't oppose what exists. Note that the whole "zero=nothing" is way off track.

This looks like "being deceived by grammar". Regrettably, the words English commonly uses for talking about this topic are ambiguous.

So the grammatical equivocation of nothing is the problem? Seem to have that in math, 1/0, as well as the Neverending Story.

To say "X comes from nothing" could mean "The cause of X is nothing", which as you note is absurd. But it could also mean "There is no thing that X comes from", i.e. "X has no cause", which isn't absurd at all.

Ok. But the claim was that something comes from nothing all the time, everywhere. And that is the claim that doesn't make sense. If there is no thing that "X comes from" that means "X" isn't "coming from" anything. "X" just exists. So any claims about it coming from "nothing" appear to be nonsensical to me.

 

[jonJ]

[
Ok. But the claim was that something comes from nothing all the time, everywhere. And that is the claim that doesn't make sense. If there is no thing that "X comes from" that means "X" isn't "coming from" anything. "X" just exists. So any claims about it coming from "nothing" appear to be nonsensical to me.

Would you be happier with the formulation: X doesn't exist at location Y at time T, but X exists at location Y at time T+N, where N is an arbitrarily short period of time? And if not, why not?

 

[Kharakov]

Ok. But the claim was that something comes from nothing all the time, everywhere. And that is the claim that doesn't make sense. If there is no thing that "X comes from" that means "X" isn't "coming from" anything. "X" just exists. So any claims about it coming from "nothing" appear to be nonsensical to me.

Would you be happier with the formulation: X doesn't exist at location Y at time T, but X exists at location Y at time T+N, where N is an arbitrarily short period of time?

Sure, but that doesn't mean X came from nothing. Vacuum energy and virtual particles do not emerge out of nothing. The vacuum (with the whole vacuum energy catastrophe) certainly is not nothing.

 

[Kharakov]

creator who is infinite in time

The uncreated Creator exists outside of time. So He created time out from Himself.

Instead imagine a being that is so amazingly powerful and knowledgeable that the appearance of space itself (the space between us, and various events) is instead maintained by this being's ability to coordinate the timing of our experiences. So when we look at a beautiful sunset, every single part of our experience is coordinated to be as it is at that point in time. It is not that the sun is separated from us by space that photons travel through, rather it is separated from us by timing, and geometrical knowledge which is incorporated into the timing.

So basically, with perfect timing, and perfect knowledge of geometry, worlds can be created, and space. Timing various events in specific ways allows one to create relationships between various beings, qualia, and... well, us.

 

[DBT]

The uncreated Creator exists outside of time. So He created time out from Himself.

None of this is actually known. It is just a sort of ad hoc claim that tries to fill the gaps in a faith based explanation of the World.

What is 'time' that something can be outside of time yet able to think and act... because any form of thought or plan or act must necessarily entail 'time' .... a beginning a middle and an end. This is time.

If God is supposed to be 'outside of time' God does not think or act because a thought or an act or a desire to create are all instances of time.

These claims do not make sense, not logically, nor scientifically.

 

[Kharakov]

I don't know about that DBT. We're both familiar with various simulation hypotheses. We're both familiar with being outside of time, in relation to a simulation we run on a computer. So the concept "outside of time" is actually a pretty simple thing.

 

[DBT]

I don't know about that DBT. We're both familiar with various simulation hypotheses. We're both familiar with being outside of time, in relation to a simulation we run on a computer. So the concept "outside of time" is actually a pretty simple thing.

If you are running a simulation, you are not outside of time. Given virtual realty, your simulated characters may live their lives at different rates of time, time being relative to the observer, but neither you or your simulated characters may be described as ''existing outside of time.'' Just different rates of change in relation to each other, that's all.

 

[untermensche]

I don't know about that DBT. We're both familiar with various simulation hypotheses. We're both familiar with being outside of time, in relation to a simulation we run on a computer. So the concept "outside of time" is actually a pretty simple thing.

Are you familiar with being outside of time?

Movement and change implies time. A being outside of time can therefore not move or change.

It is not a being as we understand the word.

 

[funinspace]

creator who is infinite in time

The uncreated Creator exists outside of time. So He created time out from Himself.

Ah, so the all powerful Mormon God did all that...oky doky.

I can adjust this

Yeah, people who worship gods and hope to one day become gods are atheists because revivin doesn't understand physics.
That one might actually go on the wall at FSTDT....

No, no, no....People who worship gods and hope to one day become gods are atheists because revivin has a fundigelical understanding of physics.

And Christianity is right, because what else could have a creator that created time out of itself (and being omnipresent), but choose a creation he knew would fail, so he took a part of himself, and gave that part a 3 day really shitty vacation as a sacrifice, for the failings of his creation. Now that is crazy stuff.

Of course I'm sure you prefer these silly distractions to actually addressing why your presentation of false bible history formation "facts", is in conflict with Christian scholars, which I pointed out in my post #285
http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...-Jesus-Being-God&p=55431&viewfull=1#post55431

 

[Malintent]

If a creator god exists outside of time, then he has no time to do anything. The word "do" must have a beginning and and end, separated temporally... by definition.

If a creator god exists outside of logic, then existance claims cannot be made (the creator cannot make them), since without logic, god exists, therefore god does not exist, is true.

... once you place god outside of the "rules" of the universe, he either stops existing, or stops being something we have language to exchange ideas about - so no one has any ability to make any claims of any kind about this "outsider" god.

 

[Malintent]

The uncreated Creator exists outside of time. So He created time out from Himself.

At what time outside of time did this uncreated Creator create time?

...and how long did it take? How would he know?

 

[dockeen]

If a god is incomprehensible, then statements of the form "God is good" become meaningless, as the person making them can have no basis for making them.

 

[Kharakov]

I don't know about that DBT. We're both familiar with various simulation hypotheses. We're both familiar with being outside of time, in relation to a simulation we run on a computer. So the concept "outside of time" is actually a pretty simple thing.

If you are running a simulation, you are not outside of time. Given virtual realty, your simulated characters may live their lives at different rates of time, time being relative to the observer, but neither you or your simulated characters may be described as ''existing outside of time.'' Just different rates of change in relation to each other, that's all.

I'm outside of the simulation's timeline, being able to pause and start it from various points, etc. The effect that the simulation's timeline has upon me causes me to act based upon my perception of the timeline- so I change variables, restore from various save points, etc.

Presumably, if one isn't assuming that whoever proposed "God exists outside of time" is completely throwing logic out the window, the  kairos is here to acknowledge that existing outside of time means one exists outside of a timeline, rather like an author of a work of literature exists outside of the work of literature.

 

[DBT]

If you are running a simulation, you are not outside of time. Given virtual realty, your simulated characters may live their lives at different rates of time, time being relative to the observer, but neither you or your simulated characters may be described as ''existing outside of time.'' Just different rates of change in relation to each other, that's all.

I'm outside of the simulation's timeline, being able to pause and start it from various points, etc.

Not entirely. Both timelines overlap during interaction. You can delete the timeline of the characters in your simulation by deleting the program, they then no longer function within the framework of time, but you still do. Don't forget, the claim is framed as ''God exists outside of time'' which suggests that God's existence is somehow, inexplicably, unrelated to any form or rate of time....and if time is being defined as given rate of change, by definition, there can be no events within a timeless state.

Presumably, if one isn't assuming that whoever proposed "God exists outside of time" is completely throwing logic out the window, the  kairos is here to acknowledge that existing outside of time means one exists outside of a timeline, rather like an author of a work of literature exists outside of the work of literature.

That's the problem, the wording is not ''God is outside of our timeline'' but usually comes up as "God exists outside of time" as if to suggest that God somehow transcends time altogether in the form of a ''timeless existence''...which is also a phrase that pops up now and again.

 

[Kharakov]

That (not your explanation, the idea itself) seems like a bunch of hogwash to me, but I've been wrong about things in the past. I could see myself or someone else making the statement "God exists outside of time", with the intended meaning of the statement being that God exists within God's own timeline. Although I tend to think that the latter intended meaning is still BS... imminence doesn't exist outside of the timeline.

 

[KeepTalking]

Sure, you can say that what is really meant by "God is outside time" is "God is outside our timeline", but then you have the same problem just removed one step. From whence came the timeline in which God resides? Was this created by God's God, or did it just come to be from nothing? If it is the former, then we have started toward infinite regress. If it is the latter, then one needs only to apply Occam's razor to come to the conclusion that the preferred explanation is that our timeline (the only one for which we have evidence) could have just as easily come from nothing.

 

[Malintent]

That (not your explanation, the idea itself) seems like a bunch of hogwash to me, but I've been wrong about things in the past. I could see myself or someone else making the statement "God exists outside of time", with the intended meaning of the statement being that God exists within God's own timeline. Although I tend to think that the latter intended meaning is still BS... imminence doesn't exist outside of the timeline.

As far as there is any reason to believe, space and time are intrinsically linked. To say something is "outside of time" means that they are also outside of space... in other words, not a member of the universal set we call "the universe". By definition, then, anything "outside of this universe" does not exist. Things that exist are things in the universe... not being in the universe means not exists.

Stating that god is outside of time is akin to saying that god does not exist.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Stating that god is outside of time is akin to saying that god does not exist.

That's too logical.
People say god is 'outside of time' because they have stated rules for the universe, but they don't want to deal with the consequences of applying those rules to their deity. So they invent a special pleading. God is outside of time, or outside of space, or outside of logic, or outside of cause and effect, not because they have any evidence of this, but simply to excuse the god they want from the rules they're imposing on everyone else's reality.
They might as well have said, "Neener, neener, rules don't apply to my invisible friend." It's about as meaningful, or as logical.

 

[Kharakov]

Stating that god is outside of time is akin to saying that god does not exist.

The statement's various equivocations and misinterpretations provide plenty of fodder for discussion, but don't seem to lead anywhere particularly useful or interesting to me at this point in time.


At this time, I'd like to add that perhaps certain of God's qualities (qualia) exist outside of time.

 

[free radical]

creator who is infinite in time

The uncreated Creator exists outside of time. So He created time out from Himself.

Impossible

Draygomb's Paradox disproves your god

Definitions:
God is defined as The Conscious First Cause -
The First Cause is That which caused Time
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of change.

Premises:
Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:
Time is required for Change,
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is Conscious.
God requires Time.
God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.

*