"They all worship the same God"

[Bronzeage]

I always want to respond to this kind of statement by asking, "Have you ever met either one?" so, I guess I just did.

I've never seen them in the same room together. They are like Batman and Bruce Wayne; or Superman and Clark Kent.

I noticed that too. This thread in one of the more inane discussions held in this forum.

 

[DBT]

Oh you know, only those Catholics, the single largest group of Christians on the planet.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330" http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

I don't see that Catholics agree with Islam on the point of Divinity, or the issue of Trinity. I do see that the Church Hierarchy are extending the hand of friendship and perhaps a kind of alliance.

Nevertheless the point of division has not been addressed. That is; Jesus is either Divine (within context), or he is not. The two positions are irreconcilable. Your article does nothing to address this. You either missed the point or decided to go with a smokescreen.

Not relevant to whether or not they worship the same god.

Of course it's relevant. It is the whole point.

If Jesus is Divine, a part of God, Trinity, etc, then this is clearly not the same God where Jesus is not Divine, and not a part of the Trinity. These are two different things.

That is what needs explaining.

But since you asked, wikipedia gives this quick list of groups that don't accept the trinity (which means Jesus is not god to them, and therefore not divine): Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God, International and the United Church of God.

That doesn't explain the division, nor does it reconcile the two versions of God, it only adds a list of believers who support a particular set of beliefs, the side that worships a God without inclusion of the Divinity of Jesus. Which of course makes it a different God to One where Jesus is Divine.

Not relevant to whether or not they worship the same god.

You still have not offered an explanation that reconciles the two opposing versions of God.

Once again, you have not demonstrated this to be a fundamental enough difference to lead us to conclude that these are different gods. Deciding that this particular difference is the cut-off point versus the differences between individual christian sects is entirely arbitrary. Incidentally, arguing that muslims don't worship the christian god because they don't accept the trinity will lead you to the same problem as with the differences between Catholics and Protestants... because not all christians accept the trinity, as I pointed out above. Yet they all clearly believe in the christian god.

Why would it not be sufficient. A Triune God where Jesus is a Divine element of the Trinity is clearly not the same God as Allah where Jesus is merely another prophet of God, or even the complete denial of Messiahship by Judaism.

Obviously, some claim that they worship the same God, but others deny their doctrine.

Logically you no more claim they are the same God than you can claim a three legged man is the same as a two legged man..

You can still offer an explanation to support compatibility, if you can.

 

[jonJ]

I've never seen them in the same room together. They are like Batman and Bruce Wayne; or Superman and Clark Kent.

"Quick, Jesus, to the Godcave!"

 

[dystopian]

I don't see that Catholics agree with Islam on the point of Divinity, or the issue of Trinity. I do see that the Church Hierarchy are extending the hand of friendship and perhaps a kind of alliance.

No, what you see there is the *pope* himfuckingself telling you that Muslims and Christians worship the same god. *You* claimed that Christians disagree with Muslims who claim they're worshipping the same god. I showed you the biggest damn group of Christians on the planet in fact agree with them.

Of course it's relevant. It is the whole point.

Only because you've arbitrarily decided that to be the cutoff point.

If Jesus is Divine, a part of God, Trinity, etc, then this is clearly not the same God where Jesus is not Divine, and not a part of the Trinity. These are two different things.

Who cares? These are *details*; the two different gods still have the same origin, are still part of the same line, are still otherwise the same apart from these details. Once again; these are just different interpretations of the same character; you simply don't seem willing to understand that whether or not Jesus is believed to be divine in a religion has *no bearing* on whether or not that religion follows the christian god. The fact that you keep hammering this point of yours while you're an atheist is extremely confusing; what relevance does it have to us whether or not christians believe Jesus is a part of god and muslims don't? They're the ones who might make that a defining feature of god, but the rest of us can look objectively at the whole and its history, and shouldn't be persuaded by such arguments of faith.

That doesn't explain the division, nor does it reconcile the two versions of God, it only adds a list of believers who support a particular set of beliefs, the side that worships a God without inclusion of the Divinity of Jesus. Which of course makes it a different God to One where Jesus is Divine.

...are you really about to launch into a no true scotman fallacy here? Because you kind of have to if that's your argument. "They're not REAL christians because they don't worship the christian god!" "Yes we do! Your understanding of god is wrong!" "Shut up! You don't even worship the same god we do, we don't have to listen to you!"

Clearly, these christian sects DO worship the christian god.

You still have not offered an explanation that reconciles the two opposing versions of God.

You still have not offered an explanation as to why it matters.

Why would it not be sufficient. A Triune God where Jesus is a Divine element of the Trinity is clearly not the same God as Allah where Jesus is merely another prophet of God, or even the complete denial of Messiahship by Judaism.

...sigh.

You're just pointing out that they're different versions of the same god; not that they are fundamentally different gods.

Obviously, some claim that they worship the same God, but others deny their doctrine.

You're no true scotsman.

Logically you no more claim they are the same God than you can claim a three legged man is the same as a two legged man.

Don't worry, if you were infected with a dna mutating virus tomorrow and grew a third leg, I'd still claim you're you...

 

[DBT]

No, what you see there is the *pope* himfuckingself telling you that Muslims and Christians worship the same god. *You* claimed that Christians disagree with Muslims who claim they're worshipping the same god. I showed you the biggest damn group of Christians on the planet in fact agree with them.

What I don't see is the *pope* himfuckingself explaining how they worship the same God given the entirely different characteristics of their two opposing versions of God.

One version, Christian, being a Triune God composed of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. And the other, Allah is not a Triune God and the so called son is merely another prophet of God.

The two versions are simply not compatible, not semantically, not logically and not actually should either form of God exist. It cannot be both, regardless of what the *pope* himfuckingself has said.

dystopian, you can settle this dispute simply by reconciling the two opposing versions by explaining how a God can be both a Triune God, composed of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost and not composed of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

Or if you can't do it yourself, show me where this discrepancy has been reconciled. You can quote the *pope* himfuckingself on the matter, if you like, and we'll take a look at the merit of the argument.

Fair enough?

Only because you've arbitrarily decided that to be the cutoff point.

Nothing arbitrary about it, it's the point of this thread.

1 - Christians believe Jesus is God.
2 - Jews do not believe Jesus is God. Muslims believe Jesus is only a prophet and Allah is the only God.

The point of contention being that both propositions cannot be true. If one is true, the other must be false, regardless of what the *pope* himfuckingself said.

If the Pope has reconciled the contradiction, show me the argument.

...are you really about to launch into a no true scotman fallacy here? Because you kind of have to if that's your argument. "They're not REAL christians because they don't worship the christian god!" "Yes we do! Your understanding of god is wrong!" "Shut up! You don't even worship the same god we do, we don't have to listen to you!"

No, it's logical contradiction related to the very nature and makeup of two versions of God. This is what needs explaining.

Clearly, these christian sects DO worship the christian god.

Clearly they do not. The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is not recognized by Islam. Mere Lip service does not resolve the contradiction.

You still have not offered an explanation as to why it matters.

Yes I have:
It is a logical contradiction that God can be both The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost (christianity) and not be The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost (Islam, Judaism) and that this contradiction needs to be reconciled in order say that both versions are indeed one and the same God.

Don't worry, if you were infected with a dna mutating virus tomorrow and grew a third leg, I'd still claim you're you...

Does that mean that God may have mutated from the God of the Israelites/Judaism into the God of Christianity, from the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost to Alllah the God of Mohammad where the Son has been demoted to mere prophet with the Holy Ghost given the boot and therefore it is one and the same God...is that it?

 

[hinduwoman]

Jews don't accept divinity of Jesus.
So obviously the Jehovah of OT cannot be the same God of NT.

 

[dystopian]

What I don't see is the *pope* himfuckingself explaining how they worship the same God given the entirely different characteristics of their two opposing versions of God.

Woaw! Back up, back up. You mean the pope isn't falling on his knees to justify to you his assertion that his god is the same one as that of the muslims. Who does he think he is!? Some sort of final authority figure for a billion and a half christians!?

The two versions are simply not compatible, not semantically, not logically and not actually should either form of God exist. It cannot be both, regardless of what the *pope* himfuckingself has said.

So what? They don't have to be compatible to just be two different versions of the same god. For that matter, Jesus can't be both god *and* the son of god, those two qualities are not compatible; semantically or logically... that doesn't seem to stop you or the christians who believe it from making a big deal about it.

dystopian, you can settle this dispute simply by reconciling the two opposing versions by explaining how a God can be both a Triune God, composed of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost and not composed of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

Again; you haven't demonstrated why this is relevant. You need to establish why the fact these two versions lead to them being fundamentally different gods, instead of just two different versions of the same god. So far you haven't done that, and seem incapable of understanding the concept.

Nothing arbitrary about it, it's the point of this thread.

Sigh. Yes, it is completely arbitrary to decide that "These two versions of god (Muslim/Christian) are too different to be called the same god"; but "These two versions (Protestant/Catholic) are NOT too different."; saying that the two different versions have mutually exclusive traits doesn't help you because the same damn thing is true for the protestant version versus the catholic version; it's just that you have *arbitrarily* decided that "this" difference is more important than "those" differences.

1 - Christians believe Jesus is God.

Except for all the ones people have pointed out to you don't...

2 - Jews do not believe Jesus is God. Muslims believe Jesus is only a prophet and Allah is the only God.

Which; I remind you again; has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the discussion.

The point of contention being that both propositions cannot be true. If one is true, the other must be false, regardless of what the *pope* himfuckingself said.

Which then means protestants and catholics don't worship the same god either. In fact, no two christian sects do; because they ALL assign traits to god that are different than the traits assigned to him by *other* christians. They can't all be right, therefore none of them actually worship the same god and the term "christian" means jack s

If the Pope has reconciled the contradiction, show me the argument.

He doesn't have to because you're the only one who thinks this contradiction is relevant to whether or not muslims and christians worship the same god. Historians, theologians, "final authorities on matters of religious faith", they all say that the god of the muslims is the same god as that of the christians and jews. But because you can't grasp the fact that two groups of people can worship the same god while having different ideas about him, I apparently need to convince the pope to show you his math.

No, it's logical contradiction related to the very nature and makeup of two versions of God. This is what needs explaining.

In other words, no true scotsman. "Your god is different from ours, you're not a christian!"; this is the logical outcome of your argument.

Clearly they do not. The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is not recognized by Islam. Mere Lip service does not resolve the contradiction.

First of all, why are you responding to a sentence in which I state that the *christian* sects that do not recognize the trinity do worship the christian god by bitching about how islam doesn't worship the trinity? And secondly... no true scotsman fallacy.

Yes I have:
It is a logical contradiction that God can be both The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost (christianity) and not be The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost (Islam, Judaism) and that this contradiction needs to be reconciled in order say that both versions are indeed one and the same God.

Once again, this isn't an argument showing why it matters. All you're doing here is repeating the assertion that it matters; not WHY it matters. From an outside and objective point of view, it doesn't matter one iota that the two groups have different views of god. If we both visit the empire state building, it doesn't matter if I see it as a skyscraper and you see it as an oozing tentacle sprouting from the ground... we still visited the same fucking building.

Does that mean that God may have mutated from the God of the Israelites/Judaism into the God of Christianity, from the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost to Alllah the God of Mohammad where the Son has been demoted to mere prophet with the Holy Ghost given the boot and therefore it is one and the same God...is that it?

When have you ever been given the impression that people think there's anything else going on? People's views evolve. Different groups adopt different views. Ideas and representations change. Nobody (except you, it seems) has ever said that these groups worship *identical* versions of the same god, but rather that they worship divergent views of what is essentially; at its core/origin; the same fictional god.

The op, and indeed the point of this thread (contrary to what you've said), has been to ask where this idea comes from. That has already been answered; the idea comes from the fact that these different views are all traceable to the same source, and that each view is just a modification of the views that came before it, rather than representing an entirely new view (or god). Or, to give you an analogy you might actually understand (despite the many perfectly serviceable analogies you seem to have been unwilling to try and understand); the city of London and the city of Londinium are both the same city; despite having many differences. Londinium was founded by the Romans in 43AD. Since then, it has been added to, and parts rebuilt, so much so that it is no longer recognizable as the Roman settlement it started as. Even so, Londinium and London are the same city; London is NOT a separate city. We regard them both as the same city; even though Londinium and London are far more different from each other than Allah and Yahweh are from each other.

If this isn't enough to make you understand what's actually being said, then I think we're done.

 

[Bronzeage]

Jews don't accept divinity of Jesus.
So obviously the Jehovah of OT cannot be the same God of NT.

Some Jews do accept the divinity of Jesus. They are known as Messianic Jews. They adhere to Jewish dietary law, and other customs and are no longer waiting for the Messiah, because they believe he already arrived.

There seems to be a lot of confusion around here about the nature of God, but I suppose that should be expected on an atheist oriented board.

 

[dystopian]

Some Jews do accept the divinity of Jesus. They are known as Messianic Jews. They adhere to Jewish dietary law, and other customs and are no longer waiting for the Messiah, because they believe he already arrived.

There seems to be a lot of confusion around here about the nature of God, but I suppose that should be expected on an atheist oriented board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

Hated by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Jackie Mason.

 

[Bronzeage]

Some Jews do accept the divinity of Jesus. They are known as Messianic Jews. They adhere to Jewish dietary law, and other customs and are no longer waiting for the Messiah, because they believe he already arrived.

There seems to be a lot of confusion around here about the nature of God, but I suppose that should be expected on an atheist oriented board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

Hated by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Jackie Mason.

Can't win them all.

I have a close friend who is a Messianic Jew. Her family observes the Sabbath on Saturday and her household is kosher. If there is some animosity toward her from other religious people, it does not seem to affect her.

 

[DBT]

Jews don't accept divinity of Jesus.
So obviously the Jehovah of OT cannot be the same God of NT.

Obviously not, yet there are some who cannot seem to grasp the significance of the two sets of claims.

 

[DBT]

Once again, this isn't an argument showing why it matters. All you're doing here is repeating the assertion that it matters; not WHY it matters. From an outside and objective point of view, it doesn't matter one iota that the two groups have different views of god. If we both visit the empire state building, it doesn't matter if I see it as a skyscraper and you see it as an oozing tentacle sprouting from the ground... we still visited the same fucking building.

It's not my assertion. There are in fact several different versions of God, that of the Christians, that of Orthodox Judaism and the claims of Islam. The contradictions are there for anyone to see. The contradictions do not justify the claim ''they all worship the same God'' because the characteristics of each version of God stands in logical opposition to the others.

That is the reason why it matters. It is a contradiction.

You assert that this is not important, that despite the contradictions, it is the same God, but you do not offer an explanation that resolves the logical contradictions between a Triune God and a non Triune God, a Divine Jesus and a not Devine Jesus, etc.

If one set of claims is true, the other cannot be true. It is a contradiction that has not been resolved. Yet the claim 'they all worship the same God' is simply asserted as if there was no problem. That is the fact of it.

When have you ever been given the impression that people think there's anything else going on? People's views evolve. Different groups adopt different views. Ideas and representations change. Nobody (except you, it seems) has ever said that these groups worship *identical* versions of the same god, but rather that they worship divergent views of what is essentially; at its core/origin; the same fictional god.
The op, and indeed the point of this thread (contrary to what you've said), has been to ask where this idea comes from...

I was not the one who started the thread. As the thread title happens to be: "They all worship the same God" - the claim that ''they all worship the same God' is open to discussion as is the question 'Can someone tell me where this ridiculous claim originated?' - and of course the possible reasons why the claim is deemed to be ridiculous by the Author.

That is the point I arguing for: that the claim "they all worship the same God" is indeed ridiculous.

And yes, you are right, different groups adopt different views. Ideas and representations do indeed change. They change to the point where one fictional version of God diverges from its source to the point it is no longer the same God.

 

[dystopian]

If this isn't enough to make you understand what's actually being said, then I think we're done.

It's not my assertion. There are in fact several different versions of God, that of the Christians, that of Orthodox Judaism and the claims of Islam. The contradictions are there for anyone to see. The contradictions do not justify the claim ''they all worship the same God'' because the characteristics of each version of God stands in logical opposition to the others.

Right, we're done.

 

[DBT]

So long, dystopian, nice chatting with you.

As to what some Catholics are saying on the matter the 'same god'... it is a mixed bag:

''In this sense, then, I suggest that we can correctly say that Jews worship and believe in a God who is qualitatively truer, closer to the God of Christianity, than the God of Islam. Both Jews and Muslims lay claim to the same revelation, but where Jews have an accurate record of it (and thus of the God it reveals) Muslims have a fictionalized adaptation''

'A fictionalized adaption' being quite ironic given that both versions of God are works of fiction.

And:
''St. John Paul first acknowledges the truth that Muslims get it right when they profess faith in one God. Then, and only then, does he point out they have it as wrong as wrong can be when it comes to what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is, and, I would add, what he asks of his people by way of his commandments.''

Which suggests that the Pope is pleased that Islam profess ''faith in one God'' but have wrong about ''what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is'' and on the basis that both religions profess 'faith in one God,' is willing to form an alliance of some sort....perhaps in the form of an alliance of theists, a promotion of belief in 'one god' despite irreconcilable differences in doctrine.

 

[skepticalbip]

It all boils down to how fine a line you want to draw in defining god.

If that line is belief in some supernatural being then all religions worship the same god… with the exception of Buddhism that has no god so they aren’t even in the consideration.

If that line is identical descriptions of this supernatural being then every believer on Earth worships their own god so there are as many gods as there are believers.

Aside from those extremes, how fuzzily that line is drawn will determine which religious groups are worshiping the same god. e.g. There are groups that are identified as Christian who do not accept the trinity. Do they worship the same god as Catholics? There are Baptist sects* that believe dancing and drinking are against the laws of god. Do they worship the same god as Episcopalians?

Jehova's Witnesses are identified as Christians but they hold the same view of Jesus as Islam does Mohammad. Are they Christians worshiping a Christian god?

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r005.html

JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father.

*There is a very old joke that Primitive Baptists oppose pre-marital sex because it could lead to dancing.

 

[DBT]

If that line is belief in some supernatural being then all religions worship the same god…

They all worship a god, but most believers appear to believe in a different version of god. So different that it cannot be said that ''all believers worship the same god''

The pantheon of supernatural beings, as described by believers, comes in a variety of forms, the Devil, Angels, Demons, various demigods, etc, which are all distinct entities.

 

[skepticalbip]

If that line is belief in some supernatural being then all religions worship the same god…

They all worship a god, but most believers appear to believe in a different version of god. So different that it cannot be said that ''all believers worship the same god''

The pantheon of supernatural beings, as described by believers, comes in a variety of forms, the Devil, Angels, Demons, various demigods, etc, which are all distinct entities.

That seems to be leaning toward the second extreme that I listed:

If that line is identical descriptions of this supernatural being then every believer on Earth worships their own god so there are as many gods as there are believers.

And leaves out the broad fuzzy middle:

Aside from those extremes, how fuzzily that line is drawn will determine which religious groups are worshiping the same god.

 

[Perspicuo]

Before this era of educated skepticism and secularism, they used to kill each other for thousands of years because they affirmed the other didn't believe in the same thing.

Fast-forward into the present, since they have the same common enemy in disbelief, now they're dear comrades and BestFriendsForever. LOL

 

[Jokodo]

Before this era of educated skepticism and secularism, they used to kill each other for thousands of years because they affirmed the other didn't believe in the same thing.

Because of differing beliefs. What tells you that those weren't differing beliefs about the same entities all along? Applying the same logic, do you think that Catholics killed Protestants alleging that the latter deified Jesus Miller while the real son of god was Jesus Taylor, or do you think they realised that both were talking about the same person even though they differed in his description?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It all boils down to how fine a line you want to draw in defining god.

That's true. If you capitalize "pet" you get "Pet." Cats, dogs, mice, snakes, fish, turtles, birds, horses, spiders.... They're all the same.