This week in patriarchy: Ukraine expels women and children so men can have combat to themselves

[spikepipsqueak]

Staff Notice

Kudos to those few posts which attempt to explore an issue.

Please could posters in this thread do likewise, present facts, state your opinion and give reasons for your thinking. Thus is nuance uncovered.

Avoid referring to another's tactics, personality, politics or past. Not relevant.

If all you have is comment on the poster, rather than the issue, consider refraining from the thread.

 

[Elixir]

Thanks for bringing that "dislike" stuff up!
I gotta say I dislike the thread title, which falsely imputes motives in my opinion.
Makes good click/flamebait though, so props for that.

The thread title does not impute motives to anybody, falsely or otherwise.

I agree the thread title is deliberately enticing, and I am proud of my wordsmithing.

Nevertheless, you said earlier:

I reserve my right to say ":"

You are allowed to say 'maybe', but that conflicts with what you said later.

Not at all. You're confused because I don't take your required simplistic answer to every question.
In order to provide it to you, I reduced my answer to the abstraction of what "should" be.
What I would do myself if faced with being Ukrainian, I don't know.
I do know exactly what I would do if I suddenly woke up and found myself in Mariupol getting shelled - I would panic. Would I then wish that everyone able was compelled to take up arms against the bastards who were shelling me for no fucking reason?
I don't know.
Anyone who hasn't been there and loudly airs their lofty opinion of their own lotfy opinion of what other people "should" do, is totally misguided IMHO. I think there are few people whose perfect world includes wartime conscription. Most, I suspect, will agree that it's an undesirable thing. But if you think you can carve some high ground for yourself out of that, go right ahead. Be advised however: you haven't done so yet.

 

[Metaphor]

Not at all. You're confused because I don't take your required simplistic answer to every question.

You said nobody should be conscripted but that you might support conscription. These are conflicting answers, or perhaps you don't know what the word 'should' means.

What I would do myself if faced with being Ukrainian, I don't know.

I am not particularly interested in that.

I do know exactly what I would do if I suddenly woke up and found myself in Mariupol getting shelled - I would panic. Would I then wish that everyone able was compelled to take up arms against the bastards who were shelling me for no fucking reason?
I don't know.
Anyone who hasn't been there and loudly airs their lofty opinion of their own lotfy opinion of what other people "should" do, is totally misguided IMHO. I think there are few people whose perfect world includes wartime conscription.

I am not suggesting anything about a perfect world of any kind. I am talking about the actual world right now.

Most, I suspect, will agree that it's an undesirable thing. But if you think you can carve out some high ground for yourself from it, go right ahead. Be advised however: you haven't done so yet.

It is not 'high ground' to say I do not support conscription under any circumstances whatever, nor to ask people the specifics of why they do support it under certain circumstances.

I used to support it given a very specific set of circumstances, but I have since changed my mind.

 

[Elixir]

Back to your thread title.
Patriarchy is the way to go in wartime, period, for one simple reason:
When there is only one (fertile) man and a hundred (fertile) women left alive, your tribe can increase +100 in a year.
With 100 men and one women, you're basically ... well, literally not screwed. But in a very tenuous survival situation.

 

[Elixir]

You said nobody should be conscripted but that you might support conscription. These are conflicting answers, or perhaps you don't know what the word 'should' means.

Don't be such a pedantic [reomved]. "Should" can refer to an ideal, an ethic, a technique, an instruction.
Sheesh. Do you practice being an ass? I just explained that I used it as an ideal in one context and an instruction in another. It's not a morality issue whatsoever. Get off it, unless you're willing to go to the front and save lives.

 

[Metaphor]

You said nobody should be conscripted but that you might support conscription. These are conflicting answers, or perhaps you don't know what the word 'should' means.

Don't be such a <name calling removed>. "Should" can refer to an ideal, an ethic, a technique, an instruction.
Sheesh. Do you practice being an ass? I just explained that I used it as an ideal in one context and an instruction in another.

I know what you did. You deliberately used it to avoid answering my question relating to the conscription of trans people.

It's not a morality issue whatsoever. Get off it, unless you're willing to go to the front and save lives.

If you do not believe conscription to be an issue of morality, you might as well not have entered the thread at all.

 

[ZiprHead]

I think if needed, anyone one should be up for conscription.

That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Ukraine is conscripting men 18-60. You indicated support. Do you think that ought include trans women, trans men, both, or neither?

Asked and answered.

 

[Metaphor]

I think if needed, anyone one should be up for conscription.

That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Ukraine is conscripting men 18-60. You indicated support. Do you think that ought include trans women, trans men, both, or neither?

Asked and answered.

Non. You deliberately sidestepped answering. I expected that.

 

[TomC]

When there is only one (fertile) man and a hundred (fertile) women left alive, your tribe can increase +100 in a year.
With 100 men and one women, you're basically ... well, literally not screwed. But in a very tenuous survival situation.

Honestly, I think that this is why women are smarter than men.

Men, as individuals, are quite dispensable. From the standpoint of human reproduction, women are far far more important as individuals.

So women are smart and moral. Men are risk takers and domineering.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I think that this is why women are smarter than men.

They're not though, unless you have a particular slant on the word 'smarter'.

 

[ZiprHead]

I think if needed, anyone one should be up for conscription.

That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Ukraine is conscripting men 18-60. You indicated support. Do you think that ought include trans women, trans men, both, or neither?

Asked and answered.

Non. You deliberately sidestepped answering. I expected that.

I guess in your world trans folk aren't included in "anyone". Not surprising.

 

[Metaphor]

I think if needed, anyone one should be up for conscription.

That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Ukraine is conscripting men 18-60. You indicated support. Do you think that ought include trans women, trans men, both, or neither?

Asked and answered.

Non. You deliberately sidestepped answering. I expected that.

I guess in your world trans folk aren't included in "anyone". Not surprising.

No, that is not my worldview, and you know it is not, and you are attempting to smear me.

Since it is the case that Ukraine is detaining men 18-60 and conscripting them, do you support the inclusion of trans women in the Ukraine's detention and conscription policy?

Should trans women be allowed to pass through the Ukraine border along with women and children, or should they be detained for conscription like other males 18-60?

 

[ZiprHead]

I think if needed, anyone one should be up for conscription.

That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Ukraine is conscripting men 18-60. You indicated support. Do you think that ought include trans women, trans men, both, or neither?

Asked and answered.

Non. You deliberately sidestepped answering. I expected that.

I guess in your world trans folk aren't included in "anyone". Not surprising.

No, that is not my worldview, and you know it is not, and you are attempting to smear me.

Boo hoo.

Since it is the case that Ukraine is detaining men 18-60 and conscripting them, do you support the inclusion of trans women in the Ukraine's detention and conscription policy?

Should trans women be allowed to pass through the Ukraine border along with women and children, or should they be detained for conscription like other males 18-60?

Already answered.

 

[Arctish]

FWIW I support the adoption and implementation of the Equal Rights Amendment in the United States:

"Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

I don't like the draft but I do think sometimes a State can be compelled to implement one, and if so, then it should apply equally to all.

 

[Metaphor]

I think if needed, anyone one should be up for conscription.

That doesn't answer the question I asked.

Ukraine is conscripting men 18-60. You indicated support. Do you think that ought include trans women, trans men, both, or neither?

Asked and answered.

Non. You deliberately sidestepped answering. I expected that.

I guess in your world trans folk aren't included in "anyone". Not surprising.

No, that is not my worldview, and you know it is not, and you are attempting to smear me.

Boo hoo.

Since it is the case that Ukraine is detaining men 18-60 and conscripting them, do you support the inclusion of trans women in the Ukraine's detention and conscription policy?

Should trans women be allowed to pass through the Ukraine border along with women and children, or should they be detained for conscription like other males 18-60?

Already answered.

No you didn't. But it's what I expected.

 

[Metaphor]

You are allowed to say 'maybe', but that conflicts with what you said later.

Nope. Your incomprehension, legend though it may be, doesn't make you correct.
Don't fret though - it's a very common syndrome in right wingers.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Elixir]

You are allowed to say 'maybe', but that conflicts with what you said later.

Nope. Your incomprehension, legend though it may be, doesn't make you correct.
Don't fret though - it's a very common syndrome in right wingers.

Thank you for your kind words.

Is there a kind way to inform you that you have created an appearance of intentional, willing incomprehension?
A schoolchild could understand that we know that conscription is bad, i.e. "should" not happen, but is sometimes deemed unavoidable as an alternative to societal suicide. Moralizing about it is a fool's domain, and I leave you to it. I hope you are able to sort out the morality of transgender conscription... good luck.

***One last thing:

"Ukraine expels women and children so men can have..."​

WHEN YOU SAY THAT SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING "SO" AS IN "IN ORDER TO", YOU HAVE IMPUTED A MOTIVE TO THEM

 

[laughing dog]

Of course you expressed your dislike, as you have often done.

Please stop telling me what I think or feel. You are terrible at it.

Well- done satire is enjoyable and thought provoking. Poorly done or moronic satire can be enjoyable. The OP satire failed completely in my opinion. Which is a waste, because it didn’t have to fail.

 

[Elixir]

You said nobody should be conscripted but that you might support conscription. These are conflicting answers, or perhaps you don't know what the word 'should' means.

Don't be such a <name calling removed>. "Should" can refer to an ideal, an ethic, a technique, an instruction.
Sheesh. Do you practice being an ass? I just explained that I used it as an ideal in one context and an instruction in another.

I know what you did. You deliberately used it to avoid answering my question relating to the conscription of trans people.

It's not a morality issue whatsoever. Get off it, unless you're willing to go to the front and save lives.

If you do not believe conscription to be an issue of morality, you might as well not have entered the thread at all.

Good luck staking out that high ground, Luv

 

[Metaphor]

Of course you expressed your dislike, as you have often done.

Please stop telling me what I think or feel. You are terrible at it.

Well- done satire is enjoyable and thought provoking. Poorly done or moronic satire can be enjoyable. The OP satire failed completely in my opinion. Which is a waste, brcsuse it didn’t have to fail.

I am telling you what your words convey.

You've made it quite clear you think the OP failed. Please stop saying it over and over.