Thoughts about TFT, and posting manners

[Brian63]

What turns you on, and what turns you off?

Regarding posts and threads, that is.

Aside from the subject matter underlying them, what characteristics of a post, poster, and thread make you more or less inclined to lurk or participate in the discussion?

A few, for example, that are more personally appealing---

Write a thread title that is actually descriptive of what the thread is about. Do not make them vague, ambiguous, etc. If you want to make a quick joke on the subject matter, make it in the post itself. Or if it is very brief, it is okay to include in the title *in addition to* the real content. At the very minimum, the thread title should be descriptive. Anyone scanning down the forum should be able to easily determine what your thread is about, just by reading the title of it.

Make posts that are written in paragraph forms. Make your points in full sentences. Do not quote-by-quote your opponent in a hostile exchange in a line-by-line fashion and then make a one-sentence snarky or sarcastic remark that does not fully elaborate on and advance your main point. Those exchanges are really, really, really tiring and uninteresting to read. Probably fun to write, but I couldn’t care less who makes better substanceless quick comebacks, and care more about which main points are more reasonable. One of the advantages of a forum like this, over other social media like Facebook and Twitter, is that we can explore topics more substantively and learn about them. Do not turn this forum into just another low quality Facebook or Twitter tit-for-tat argument, but with more characters added, please. Please. Please.

Do not just write posts or threads consisting of just links to news articles, or at least do not make that predominantly what your posting style is. Offer your own opinions and your own thoughts. We do not get extra special bonus points for making posts and threads that are nothing more than headlines and links to other websites. Start a discussion yourself, instead of you just giving a bunch of links and having other people after you actually start the discussion.

Limit your personal anecdotal stories. Please. As much as you may love talking about yourself, other people probably are not going to be as interested in listening to you talk so incessantly about yourself. If you have a personal experience of how some people behave in some context, do not mistake your anecdotes for data. You can tell them still, but limit how often you insert them into threads that are not intended to be about you specifically, and when you do say them just give a brief synopsis instead of a full-blown novel including every minutiae and detail.



Over the next several weeks and maybe months I anticipate posting less frequently than I have been, partly for the above stated reasons, partly for other reasons not mentioned but still applicable to the forum environment, and partly for other unrelated real-life reasons requiring my attention. I just do not want to see this forum decrease in quality and quantity of worthwhile discussions, and trends like those above steer it in that direction. Overall, this forum used to be heavily about discussing issues pertaining to atheists, agnostics, skeptics, humanists, etc. In more recent times it is more talking about pop culture and politics, with the latter consisting of largely insulting each other among the same handful of posters. Occasionally a new discussion about secular/religious matters develops, but they are less and less of a focus. This discussion forum does not add much unique that other internet sites do not, either in the topics or qualities of conversation, and it does not seem to really fulfill much of a broader mission anymore, just the personal hostilities and egos of individual posters. So I am cutting back significantly for the short term at least, to take a break and to take care of other real-life priorities.

What do the rest of you want this forum to be about? What did draw you here, what has kept you here, and what makes you think about leaving it? What changes would you like to see made in the setup of it, or in the culture of it? What kinds of discussions, posting habits, etc. do you like or dislike to see from others? How can you become a better poster yourself?

 

[TSwizzle]

I believe that the platform (forums) are on the decline. I've been a member of a few forums that were vibrant to begin with but over a few years members just drift away and very few new members join to replace them. TFT doesn't seem to attract a lot of new members that are active and so it's the usual handful of posters that go back and forth over the same topics. I think Twitter will be the preferred platform for getting opinions seen/heard/discussed.

 

[rousseau]

My main qualm is arguments that aren't made in good faith, or those made with an ulterior motive. I'm not here to make change or save the world, I'm here to learn from other people. So when, for instance, I talk the specifics of religion and those replying just want to take jabs at it, I have no interest in carrying on the conversation.

Or good faith - when the person responding doesn't look like they're attempting to understand your post as a whole in order to advance the conversation, and just wants to pick out where you're wrong. No interest in that whatsoever.

But I don't think any of the above is specific to Talk Freethought, and is rather just how people are. Intellectually honest exchange of information is more rare than it should be. And actually, even though this place seems to be on it's last legs, it does seem like we still have a core of pretty good posters.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I am in complete agreement with Brian63. I am here to learn and discuss, not read hit and run insults.

When I answer a post in quote by quote format, it is only to be sure that the original poster is aware of what I am specifically discussing. I do try to not make a habit of doing that as I know it makes for a lengthy post that can be tedious to read, but in some cases it is necessary.

I don't normally interact with posts which are only a link to another website. If the original poster does not have anything to say about it, why should I care enough to discuss it?

I enjoy reading posts by members who offer substantive dialogue on the chosen subject and are courteous even when they don't agree with me. I always try to reply in kind. If someone starts insulting me then I try to just walk away from interacting with them; I will admit I am not always successful doing that, but I do try.

And yes, I have seen forum usage (here and elsewhere) fall off considerably over the years I have participated in them. I think this is very sad; the world seems to be losing the desire and/or ability to have an actual conversation with more than just sound bite sized chunks.

My participation here is erratic as my real life interferes with what I would actually like to be doing

Ruth

 

[Tharmas]

I too am here to learn and discuss, and enjoy the forum for those opportunities. I will say that I do enjoy reading personal stories and anecdotes as well. They make the place seem more human to me.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

I think we have all been guilty of reacting before thinking when the temperature on a thread gets elevated, but the atmosphere is starting to worry me.

People here address the facts less often than we used to.

When it is a matter of discussing opinions, I feel I see way too much abuse for holding opinions, and less explanation of why an opinion is unacceptable, or impractical in a civil society, or downright wrong.

If we can't support our own opinions with argument how can we expect to persuade someone whose opinions we consider to be mistaken?

I have been busy but also avoiding this place because of the level, not just of snark, but actual abuse. Comments that don't address the issue but apply pejoratives to other posters.

In the past that sort of thing sometimes happened as part of a robust discussion and could be taken with a grain of salt. These days, and increasingly, it happens instead of discussion.

I miss the days when we paid some attention to the points others were making and tried to understand the other's stance before jumping on the bandwagon. I see way too much reacting to keywords that might be in a post, regardless of which order they are in.


ADD I was about to be kicked out of the library when I wrote that. I want to add that if we can't self monitor then we can't think of ourselves as a thinking community.

Consider yourself kissed on both cheeks for starting this discussion, Brian63.

 

[southernhybrid]

I enjoy personal stories and anecdotes, as it does help us get to know each other on a more personal level. I really don't care how people title their threads. There are some posting styles that I don't like, but we are individuals so of course we all prefer different ways and styles of posting.

The only thing that I find disturbing is the frequent attacks on each other.

Why can't we simply disagree without making everything so personal? The political forum has always been the most active, but it seems as if the topics discussed lately are often petty and not even related to politics. I've been a political/news junkie for most of my adult life, but sometimes visiting that forum is very disheartening. I seriously doubt that anyone's opinion has ever been changed so why even bother? I'm trying to spend a lot less time there.

I don't know if things will improve. Discussion boards seem to be on the way out, as other forms of social media have taken over. Or to put it another way, Twitter is destroying polite society. On second thought, it's already destroyed it.

 

[Brian63]

Personal anecdotes are fine when they are brief and to-the-point. When they are very frequent and excessively-wordy and used more as an opportunity for someone to talk about themselves yet again and again, they become tiresome and annoying to read. There is the ignore option on the forum, but that really should not have to be used except as a last resort. People themselves should first learn on the forum and in their life in general, to control their desires to steer other conversations into opportunities to talk about own self, when really they should remain about other matters. Do not be so self-oriented in your conversation habits, and try to talk about the other people around you to a greater degree and ask them questions about themselves, rather than steering the discussion towards being about yourself.

 

[Toni]

I'm guilty of personal anecdotes. I'm guilty of being wordy. I have no problem with people ignoring me.

Generally speaking, I'm hesitant to ask other people about themselves because most of us do not know each other IRL and personally, I am careful about the personal information I share on an anonymous forum. I assume others are the same and carefully guard details that might identify them to the general forum public. I've known people who have had that happen, and not in a good way. One friend on another forum answered a knock on her door late at night and found a fellow poster to whom she had not provided her real life name, phone number or address. Whether this makes things better or worse: the intruding fellow board member was pretty drunk. She meant no harm but she was what one might call: boundary challenged. I know someone else whose board enemies decided to try to contact his place of work and who did contact his wife at home in a fairly unpleasant manner. People get upset from time to time and sometimes have more time than sense and think it's funny or a good idea or 'honest' to dox other people that they are angry with. So, I don't wish to intrude more than I do.

Sometimes I read this forum a lot; sometimes not at all. Time is often a factor but not entirely. I only ever read a few sections of this whole board. That varies a bit depending on my time and mood.

I have no problem not participating in this forum.

 

[rousseau]

I enjoy lengthy personal anecdotes, and if they're a bit too long the option to skip over them is always there.

If anything, the anecdotes that this forum generates are probably the most interesting thing about it. And that's because we have a real community here, and aren't a faceless board where everyone is truly anonymous. That and many members here are genuinely interesting people.

 

[steve_bank]

Not much bothers me.

I imagine we all of us regulars piss off each other from time to time for one thing or another. Live and let live is a good approach.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Not much bothers me.

I imagine we all of us regulars piss off each other from time to time for one thing or another. Live and let live is a good approach.

QFT

I like the anecdotes. In the informal end of the board they are what it's all about, to an extent.

In the "argument" end of the board, a personal story can provide a good framework for examining the point at issue, helping to tease out and illustrate aspects that aren't immediately obvious in a .theoretical perspective.

Getting to know some of someone's back story is what gives us the forbearance to know when someone's joking, gently ribbing, or if they are genuinely trying to hurt with a comment.

Knowing someone a bit, we can start to give each other the latitude we give people in real life.

 

[Brian63]

Anecdotes are alright moreso when they come from a variety of individuals. Some specific individuals though seem to take a lot of threads as opportunities to repeatedly talk about themselves.

For a little (anecdotal) context:
A person in my household regularly talks about herself. She tells very long, very drawn-out, detailed, boring, lengthy, and tiring stories about herself, over and over again to whatever audience is in front of her. So the same person may hear her tell the same 10-minutes of exhausting uninterrupted anecdotes again and again, if they are unlucky enough to get stuck in the same room with her each time.

Also, I have noticed on dating websites how disappointing it is to see sooooooo many women (I do not know about men's profiles) incessantly talk about themselves, what they like, what they want. To some extent that is expected, since it is a personal profile. On the other hand, many take it way too far. They only talk about what they want in a partner, they say nothing about what they want to offer a partner. It becomes abundantly clear that what their imagined dream relationship is really not about a mutual romantic partnership with give-and-take. Instead, it really would come down to pleasing her. It is all about her.

I see the same behavior and same traits here sometimes. People take so many opportunities to talk about themselves, in too great a detail, even if a more generous and productive discussion could be had by talking about others around them, asking them about their own experiences and their own thoughts and their own life. We should not try and steer conversations towards being about ourselves. Really good conversationalists are often ones who are really good at talking about the people around them, rather than just talking about themselves all the time.

 

[Toni]

I'm probably guilty of all of the things you don't like.

Speaking for myself, if I offer up details about anything in my real life, I'm trying to offer some context or, sometimes a bit of sympathy that points out a similar experience, in order to try to establish some sense of camaraderie and connection. Otherwise, I'm offering up details to try to find kindred spirits or folks who have perhaps gone through something similar or who might have insight or opinions. To me, that seems better manners than probing others for details they might understandably be reluctant to share with strangers on the internet.

 

[Brian63]

Yeah, there is an important difference between telling your own story for the benefit of another person who may be reluctant or afraid of telling their own similar story. In those cases I completely am in support of telling personal anecdotes. Those are the "you are not alone" type stories and are more altruistic in nature.

Then there are also the cases where people incessantly talk about themselves not for the benefit of the listener but just to vent and rant themselves. Or they think their own stories are super-duper interesting and everyone else in the same room wants to hear the 10-minute uninterrupted, exhaustively-detailed monologue versions of them. It is telling stories for their own personal benefit rather than the benefit of others, even to the detriment of others who are bound by etiquette to listen to it and not doze off.

 

[steve_bank]

If you do not like the way someone always pos5s use the ignore function. I have two people on ignore who always descend into personal bickering.

I can have some fun with the thread.

Get your own shit together first.
A person in a glass house should not throw stones.
Ye whose slate is clean cast the first stone.

If someone wants to blow their own horn who cares? I do not see how anyone can get upset on a largely anonymous forum.

Tolerance begets mutually assured survival. I was on the original forum and the incarnations. The intent was always freedom to speak freely. If you make a claim and are taken to task it js your problem.

Trying to impose any form other than the obvious like chronic personal attack and hate speech is not what the forum is about. Theist are welcome with their monotone rhetoric.

Way back someone wanted to be able to start a thread and control who had access. That went nowhere.
To me the real value of the forum is that anyone regardless of background can post and explore with out fear of being summarily ostracized or bullied.

Talk about whatever you like. Some people due start threads to get up on a platform and blow their own horn. Part of the forum.

The forum as it is now is pretty tame. 7 or 8 years ago there was a lot of moderation. A lot of chronic bickering.

 

[Brian63]

Going to tackle just one of these here.

If someone wants to blow their own horn who cares?

Some of us do, including those who like discussions less to be about blowing our own horns and more about constructive discussion. In recent months I have started viewing some atheist-oriented podcasts and they are vastly different than what is found here. There the hosts get into much higher quality discussions, are polite and kind to their guests (if the guests are polite and kind themselves), each allows the other opportunities to present their views and it makes for much more interesting discussion. When they tell stories, they are usually relevant and not just ranting or blowing horns. They will tell them in a response to a caller who is afraid and feeling like they are alone, so that they become aware that they are not. You learn about the world and how it functions, you do not just hear a bunch of people self-aggrandizing.

I remember some of the original IIDB from way back around 2000, and there was a lot of intelligent and thoughtful discussion of religious and secular issues. It was not as much people blowing their own horns for no reason. There were plenty of debates and learning about the various apologetic arguments for religion. There was a Deconversion Testimony thread which was very active and people regularly contributed to it (personal anecdotes would be great there). People told stories in the Secular Lifestyle forum about their difficulties and challenges with living as a secular person in a religious environment. There was even a "Positive Atheism and Secular Activism" forum where people could learn how to find and organize with other local groups and become more activist-oriented. That idea had never crossed my mind before, that someone can actually be active for atheism. We are supposed to merely play defense all the time, right? Wait until our rights are infringed upon, and only then say or do anything. Do not be more proactive against the underlying threats that religions pose though. Plenty of organizations still exist that perform such functions to help various secularists, but this forum really has no role or association with them. We are currently a moreso collection of posters, a lot of them with huge aggressions and egos and who like to troll each other on a lot of issues, but who happen to have some similar views on the one matter of religion, where less attention is paid. If that is all this forum is going to be, it is not going to be very useful or intriguing to members.

 

[steve_bank]

Well Brian, not to belabor the point but whyshould anyone care what youm think?

I have several people on ignore. If somebody bothers you do not participate in their threads, respond to posts, and use the ignore function. The same general response to this way back in forum history. If you thnk somebody violates TOU make a complaint.

And of course if you want to control form am content you are free to start your own forum or go elsewhere.

And there are people who love to complain about anything. I am no psychologist but it seems like those kinds of poster are looking for self esteem and personal validation at the expense of others. Neither here for there for me, it does not violate TOU. That is what in part the lounge and miscellaneous is for.

And from here we descend into the usual tit for tat personal commentary? It all makes sense when you grasp there are people here who may not like the way you yourself post.

 

[Brian63]

Well Brian, not to belabor the point but whyshould anyone care what youm think?

Because maybe they are valid concerns and helpful suggestions? If you disagree, you are welcome to simply ignore this thread or me generally, as you point out. I never understood the "why should anyone care about your opinion?" question. Either the opinion has merit or it does not, independently of the person who holds it. Pointing out that it comes from a particular person amounts to an ad hominem fallacy, as if that by itself discredits the opinion in some way.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I am in complete agreement with Brian63. I am here to learn and discuss, not read hit and run insults.

When I answer a post in quote by quote format, it is only to be sure that the original poster is aware of what I am specifically discussing. I do try to not make a habit of doing that as I know it makes for a lengthy post that can be tedious to read, but in some cases it is necessary.

I don't normally interact with posts which are only a link to another website. If the original poster does not have anything to say about it, why should I care enough to discuss it?

I enjoy reading posts by members who offer substantive dialogue on the chosen subject and are courteous even when they don't agree with me. I always try to reply in kind. If someone starts insulting me then I try to just walk away from interacting with them; I will admit I am not always successful doing that, but I do try.

And yes, I have seen forum usage (here and elsewhere) fall off considerably over the years I have participated in them. I think this is very sad; the world seems to be losing the desire and/or ability to have an actual conversation with more than just sound bite sized chunks.

My participation here is erratic as my real life interferes with what I would actually like to be doing

Ruth

There are some blogs that are doing well. But those that do well tend to be narrowly focused. John Loftus' blog "Christianity Debunked". Bob Seidenstiker's "Cross Examined".