Thread of the Temple of the Search for Truth

[1ICrying]

Meh. In eighty years I will be dead.

I was dead for forever. I was dead for forever before I was born, and I will be dead forever once I die.

It's not a hardship; And there will be no gods or TRUTH that will change that.

Hi Bilby,
I believe you were non-existent, now you exist, with a chance to either carry-on, to the next level, or accept death. You believe that there is no alternative to death, when the Bible points out that there is, that God CAN change that. Although you say you accept death with a 'meh', do you really? Do you not enjoy being alive? I think, even if just subconsciously, this 'acceptance' of death is not so complete.

 

[1ICrying]

Bulklshit?
Taking snakes.
Man serving i a whale.
Blowing down walls of acity with a horn.
Parting the Red Sea.
Walking on water.
Bringing a rotting stinking dead person back to life.
Changing water into wine.
A global flood.

What is likely not entirely bullshit is the fragmented oral Hebrew history put to paper and embellished.

You can treat Proverbs as Hebrew wisdom literature as you can some of the other books books.

Yes, all these items you list are near impossible to believe. And that's the point - the belief in things we can't see - Blessed is he who believes without seeing. That seems upside down to a materialist/rationalist, but that's the thing - God is beyond the rational, beyond our sight, so you are never going to get the truth completely documented on laser disc - but as close as you will get to that is the Bible. The rest, you need to fill in the blanks with belief.

Furthermore, all those things on the list, while incredible, are well within the power of an almighty God - so why wouldn't the stories that he tells us be full of wild flights of fancy? This is God's story, so of course it's going to be incredible. That was the message of Life of Pi

 

[1ICrying]

This thread has been moved from Religion vs. Science forum to General Religion forum due to lack of science.

Moreover; it has begun leaning into preaching, which is against the TOU. It needs to return to honest debate with posters on issues, not mere extolling to read a religious book

Thank you and my apologies, I thought I had started this thread in General Religion.

As far as preaching, I have simply been asking....If not the Bible,(to get us out of here alive) then what? I haven't gotten too much reply besides the Food Chain Song. So, it looks to me like its the Bible or nothing (for me anyway, I can't speak for other people). And for some, nothing it seems is okay. That's where we're at, IIDB staff, here in the thread of the Temple for the Search for Truth.

 

[bilby]

You believe that there is no alternative to death, when the Bible points out that there is, that God CAN change that.

That the Bible is wrong about this is unremarkable; That you think that your desire for it to be true has any influence whatsoever on its falsehood is just sad.

I don't believe that there's no alternative to death; I know it.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to give you the decade or so of education that you need in order to understand this; However that education is freely available to you, if you are interested in finding out what is true about reality, in place of believing things that are desirable to you.

You could start by questioning everything.

Especially the things you want to be the truth.

The first thing is not to fool yourself; And you are the easiest person for you to fool.

 

[bilby]

Although you say you accept death with a 'meh', do you really?

Yes.

Do you not enjoy being alive?

Sure I do. What difference does that make to the fact that this condition cannot be permanent?

I think, even if just subconsciously, this 'acceptance' of death is not so complete.

Then that's yet another thing you think, that you have no reason to think, and that is false.

I accept that I shall die; I understand that by its very nature, death itself cannot be either pleasant nor unpleasant; I don't want to die, but I am accepting of the rather mundane fact that I shall, as shall we all.

Worrying about something that is both unavoidable, and not unpleasant, is quite literally insane; One of the cruelest things that religion does is to cause people to waste the one brief lifespan they have on worry about something they can neither avoid, nor be aware of once it has occurred.

Another harsh cruelty is that religion also claims that it is virtuous to persuade others to worry about this non-issue. That's not just cruel, it's downright evil.

 

[pood]

Meh. In eighty years I will be dead.

I was dead for forever. I was dead for forever before I was born, and I will be dead forever once I die.

It's not a hardship; And there will be no gods or TRUTH that will change that.

Hi Bilby,
I believe you were non-existent, now you exist, with a chance to either carry-on, to the next level, or accept death. You believe that there is no alternative to death, when the Bible points out that there is, that God CAN change that.

The bible doesn’t “point out” any such thing. The bible claims this. The claim is false.

 

[abaddon]

If death is unconsciousness then nobody will experience it.

One way to get over the fear of death is to realize Epicurus's maxim: "Where I am death is not, where death is I am not". What that means is, if death's not experienced then it's absurd to fear it.

People fear death because they think of it as an experience. They reify it with imagery as if it's a place. It's "the deep sleep", "the void", "the darkness", "oblivion", and a dozen other images that hold the implicit belief of continuance.

Also humans have this really dumb habit of looking at themselves from the outside. They say "me" but in their mind's eye they're seeing a person (themselves) as if from the outside, and imagine death happening to "that guy" and fear death on his behalf because "that guy" is "me".

In short, if death is "the end" of one's awareness then no one experiences death except from the outside, when watching it happen to someone else. If you live 90 years, the sum total of your life experience will be those 90 years of life and that's all. From the only POV we can know, our own 1st-person POVs, there is no death.

So dying is what's scary, not death. And no contrived beliefs can change that we experience dying.

 

[Rhea]

Yes, all these items you list are near impossible to believe. And that's the point - the belief in things we can't see - Blessed is he who believes without seeing.

Let’s pause for a moment and examine this claim of yours. You pose it as if it is justified and believable. As if it doesn’t bring the conversation to a screeching halt.

But it is not justified, it is not believable, and it does bring the conversation to a screeching, messy halt.

Whyever would it be blessed to believe things that you cannot see or verify?
IN WHAT UNIVERSE would that be a positive trait?

Seriously, we need to examine this. Why on earth would it be good?

It trains people to be gullible. It rewards them for falling for con-men. It prepares them to be fooled. It makes them seek out outlandish claims, whether they be from hucksters or paranoids or the deluded. It fosters bad habits and yea, even sin (“Here, eat this apple, it’ll bring you happiness”)

How can you possibly even entertain the notion that “believing without seeing” could possibly, in any way, be a blessing of any kind?

”Believe without seeing” is a con-man’s tool and it is detrimental to everyone else.


Change my mind. Explain how gullibility is a blessing. Ever.

 

[Elixir]

That's where we're at, IIDB staff, here in the thread of the Temple for the Search for Truth.

Seems like you started this thread in search of validation for your own superstitious beliefs, rather than in search of the actual truth.
The other option, of course is that you started it to preach, which is against the TOU. But either way, your "argument" seems to consist solely of naked assertions of the existence of a skydaddy rather than of any reasoned presentation. That's not what a search for truth looks like IME.

 

[Elixir]

I accept that I shall die; I understand that by its very nature, death itself cannot be either pleasant nor unpleasant; I don't want to die, but I am accepting of the rather mundane fact that I shall, as shall we all.

All that, and - I very much doubt that the experience of death will be "worse" in any way, than some of the things I have experienced without dying. What's the big deal? Most likely, fear of the unknown driving people to irrational belief sets.

 

[TomC]

I accept that I shall die; I understand that by its very nature, death itself cannot be either pleasant nor unpleasant; I don't want to die, but I am accepting of the rather mundane fact that I shall, as shall we all.

All that, and - I very much doubt that the experience of death will be "worse" in any way, than some of the things I have experienced without dying. What's the big deal? Most likely, fear of the unknown driving people to irrational belief sets.

I think it was Samuel Clemens who pointed out:
"I was dead for millions of years before I was born. I was not inconvenienced in the slightest."
Tom

 

[1ICrying]

Yes, all these items you list are near impossible to believe. And that's the point - the belief in things we can't see - Blessed is he who believes without seeing.

Let’s pause for a moment and examine this claim of yours. You pose it as if it is justified and believable. As if it doesn’t bring the conversation to a screeching halt.

But it is not justified, it is not believable, and it does bring the conversation to a screeching, messy halt.

Whyever would it be blessed to believe things that you cannot see or verify?
IN WHAT UNIVERSE would that be a positive trait?

Seriously, we need to examine this. Why on earth would it be good?

It trains people to be gullible. It rewards them for falling for con-men. It prepares them to be fooled. It makes them seek out outlandish claims, whether they be from hucksters or paranoids or the deluded. It fosters bad habits and yea, even sin (“Here, eat this apple, it’ll bring you happiness”)

How can you possibly even entertain the notion that “believing without seeing” could possibly, in any way, be a blessing of any kind?

”Believe without seeing” is a con-man’s tool and it is detrimental to everyone else.


Change my mind. Explain how gullibility is a blessing. Ever.

Hi Rhea,
I know, just believing in something for no reason, does bring it to a screaching halt. I do have my reasons for believing the Bible, despite the fact that it is sometimes whacky, sometimes not perfectly clear - but over-all, I think it has held up quite well after all this time. I Know for you it never held up, but I just want to be a witness of one of the usually normal, sane people who believes the promise in there - that of life after death. To me, its like our chance to get to the next level. We are all made up of an egg and that one sperm that managed to find his way to the prize - that one sperm made it to the next level and is experiencing all of this wonderful life - while the other sperm are long gone. (I'm sure they're not suffering - just gone, and forgotten, no biggie). But for that one sperm, it was a biggie. And for those of us who go on to experience paradise forever (that's the promise of the Bible), it will also be a biggie.

Why can I beleive in something I can't see or touch? Do you believe your mother loves you? (*my apologies if you are a little orphan annie etc, but) chances are your mother and father loved you. Could you ever prove it? Can you see the love? But you have a type of knowledge that it truly exists. If you can wrap your head around that, then you are beginning to see how we believe what we believe. Other than that, just look around at the perfection of a natural universe that we find ourselves in: with universal laws, an evolution that improves instead of falling apart, the beauty in a face or sunset - there is the real proof that a God exists. To think, as many do here, that it is just some grand fluke - THAT - that really is rich.

1I

 

[pood]

Hi Rhea,
I know, just believing in something for no reason, does bring it toa screaching halt. I do have my reasons for believing the Bible,

What reasons are those?

despite the fact that it is sometimes whacky, sometimes not perfectly clear - but over-all, I think it has held up quite well after all this time.

Held up quite well? It’s quite the opposite. The major bible stories are literally false. I think you said you accepted evolution. Evolution shows there never was a first man and woman, only a first population. It shows there was no Garden of Eden. And geology and physics show the world was not created in six days. So right off the bat Genesis is totally wrong. And, since the point of Christian mythology is that Christ came to redeem the original sin, the story falls apart, since we know there was no Adam and Eve and no garden and no forbidden fruit and hence no original sin.

We know there was no worldwide flood, so Noah’s tale is right out. Jesus allegedly promised to return to establish his kingdom of heaven on earth before the people around him were dead. That was false. Two thousand years later we’re still waiting for him to drop by again.

I Know for you it never held up, but I just want to be a witness of one of the usually normal, sane people who believes the promise in there - that of life after death. To me, its like our chance to get to the next level. We are all made up of an egg and that one sperm that managed to find his way to the prize - that one sperm made it to the next level and is experiencing all of this wonderful life - while the other sperm are long gone. (I'm sure they're not suffering - just gone, and forgotten, no biggie).

Exactly. And when you’re dead you’ll be gone, too, and won’t suffer — no biggie.

Why can I beleive in something I can't see or touch? Do you believe your mother loves you? (*my apologies if you are a little orphan annie etc, but) chances are your mother and father loved you. Could you ever prove it? Can you see the love?

This is beyond bizarre. Of course you can see the love, you experience it through words and behavior — the exact opposite of the love of a non-existent God. Children die of brain cancer — where’s God’s love for them? Who comforts old people who are in decline and suffering? God? No, God isn’t there — there families are there to comfort them if they are lucky, and medical staff or hospice staff. God just fucks right off. He couldn’t give a damn about the suffering of the young or old or any age in between, because he doesn’t exist.

But you have a type of knowledge that it truly exists. If you can wrap your head around that, then you are beginning to see how we believe what we believe. Other than that, just look around at the perfection of a natural universe

The perfection of the natural universe? Like earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, viruses that can and do kill millions, massive gamma ray bursts in outer space that would instantly sterilize any planets with life on them that unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity? What is the perfection of a universe that consists primarily of empty space? It seems to me that if god exists, we ought to conclude that his real goal was to create a lot of pointless nothingness, since that is what we actually have.

that we find ourselves in: with universal laws, an evolution that improves instead of falling apart,

You are wrong. Evolution does not “improve” anything. Ninety-nine percent of all species that ever existed are extinct. That’s improvement to you? Populations do not improve. They change over time, because of random mutations mediated by natural selection, and because of drift, a wholly stochastic process. In sum, evolution is a great big series of fortuitous accidents. It’s a mindless process with no goal.

the beauty in a face or sunset - there is the real proof that a God exists. To think, as many do here, that it is just some grand fluke - THAT - that really is rich.


1I

You have to be kidding. The beauty of a face or a sunset? That beauty is found in the fact that evolution inclines us to find some things attractive and others unattractive. How about when a tsunami swamps coastal villages, killing thousands of people? How about the face of a baby hideously disfigured by some wasting illness? How about the parasitical wasps who paralyze prey with a sting so they can lay eggs inside of them and when the eggs hatch, the offspring eat the prey alive from the inside? How beautiful is all that?

 

[Elixir]

Sunsets here are great when CA is on fire. Things balance out - no skydaddies needed.

 

[steve_bank]

Back to a perfect creation again?

Except for birth defects, earthquakes, hurricanes, asteroid strikes, sunspots, supernova, etc etc etc...

Will god please stand up and take a bow.

Christian apologetic abound to explain why the universe is as god created it. The Chrtian messahje is suffer it because in the endd there is an eternal glorious existence in heaven.

If god created heaven as he created Earth I would not be so optimistic.

 

[Copernicus]

Why can I beleive in something I can't see or touch? Do you believe your mother loves you? (*my apologies if you are a little orphan annie etc, but) chances are your mother and father loved you. Could you ever prove it? Can you see the love? But you have a type of knowledge that it truly exists. If you can wrap your head around that, then you are beginning to see how we believe what we believe. Other than that, just look around at the perfection of a natural universe that we find ourselves in: with universal laws, an evolution that improves instead of falling apart, the beauty in a face or sunset - there is the real proof that a God exists. To think, as many do here, that it is just some grand fluke - THAT - that really is rich.

I see that you have a solution to the mystery of the existence of the universe. It is not a grand fluke. It was created by the even grander fluke, God. Now we can rest secure in the knowledge that we have solved the mystery of the universe.

 

[Rhea]

Yes, all these items you list are near impossible to believe. And that's the point - the belief in things we can't see - Blessed is he who believes without seeing.

Let’s pause for a moment and examine this claim of yours. You pose it as if it is justified and believable. As if it doesn’t bring the conversation to a screeching halt.

But it is not justified, it is not believable, and it does bring the conversation to a screeching, messy halt.

Whyever would it be blessed to believe things that you cannot see or verify?
IN WHAT UNIVERSE would that be a positive trait?

Seriously, we need to examine this. Why on earth would it be good?

It trains people to be gullible. It rewards them for falling for con-men. It prepares them to be fooled. It makes them seek out outlandish claims, whether they be from hucksters or paranoids or the deluded. It fosters bad habits and yea, even sin (“Here, eat this apple, it’ll bring you happiness”)

How can you possibly even entertain the notion that “believing without seeing” could possibly, in any way, be a blessing of any kind?

”Believe without seeing” is a con-man’s tool and it is detrimental to everyone else.


Change my mind. Explain how gullibility is a blessing. Ever.

Hi Rhea,

Hi 1lCrying.

You have missed my point utterly. But I am really genuinely interested in your answer to my actual question, so I’ll try to go through your answers to the question I did NOT ask “Why I like believing,” and try to help you understand the question I WAS asking, “Why is it beneficial to believe without seeing,” and see if you are capable of putting your head in that space so you can answer the question that you were given.

Try, and I am saying this with a tone of friendly conversation, here, please know that, try really hard to not assume you know what I mean without pausing to reflect. DO pause to reflect. Try to notice what I am REALLY asking. I am NOT asking about whether the thing you are believing is appealing to you. I am NOT asking what you claim is evidence (what you “see”). The passage says, “Blessed are those who believe WITHOUT SEEING.” Without seeing any evidence, any verification, any validation - just straight up unsubstantiated belief. Blessed are them. And I ask, WHY would that be blessed?

What is beneficial about being coached to believe things without verification. Who benefits from that, and what could possibly go wrong with it?

I know, just believing in something for no reason, does bring it to a screaching halt.

It sure does. So stay on target for that topic.

I do have my reasons for believing the Bible,

Ouch. You lost the topic. You are not blessed, then, are you. You needed a reason, something you “saw,” before you’d believe.

So maybe you agree with me that it is the height of folly to believe without seeing. The ways this could go wrong are legion, aren’t they. Starting with a woman in a garden and a serpent saying, “eat.” (Sure! Yes! I believe you!)

And maybe you agree with me that anyone who would extoll you to believe without seeing is trying to con you, and you cannot stomach that condition, so you make a list of all the things you **SEE** and you believe based on that.

And you are not blessed. You did not believe without “seeing.”

despite the fact that it is sometimes whacky, sometimes not perfectly clear - but over-all, I think it has held up quite well after all this time.

You don’t know that. You’re still alive, you have no idea if it has held up. But that’s a distraction, because the QUESTION was about whether it is prudent and wise to believe without seeing, or whether it is monumentally reckless to do so, and anyone who asks you to is trying to take something from you.

I Know for you it never held up,

You know nothing of the kind. Especially since the “it” you are talking about has not been defined. Moreover something can’t “hold up” if it was never “up” in the first place.

but I just want to be a witness of

Aaah, you should be careful, then. “Witnessing” is against the Terms of Use at this forum. That is because witnessing does not involve meaningful discussion - which is the purpose of this site. Witnessing is a one way street, a streetcorner zealot with a megaphone that speaks without hearing, transmits without receiving. It is tedious and unwelcome. And, as I said, against the TOU. So take that to a Christian site. They like that kind of stuff. We like the exchange of ideas here. It requires you to be open to new ideas.

one of the usually normal, sane people who believes the promise in there - that of life after death. To me, its like our chance to get to the next level. We are all made up of an egg and that one sperm that managed to find his way to the prize - that one sperm made it to the next level and is experiencing all of this wonderful life - while the other sperm are long gone. (I'm sure they're not suffering - just gone, and forgotten, no biggie). But for that one sperm, it was a biggie. And for those of us who go on to experience paradise forever (that's the promise of the Bible), it will also be a biggie.

First off, there is a choice of eggs as well, so the sort of “let’s talk about men here” vibe is quite off-puttinng. As someone who spent some time and effort (and a great deal of interesting data-taking) to get pregnant (no science mind you, we did it the natural way, but it was not immediate), there were quite a few eggs involved, too. When I hear you talking about how pregnancy is all about the sperm, I can only picture a patriarchal arrogance that, quite scientifically, is the lowest rung of the reproductive priority. Take your sperm-centered pregnancy tale elsewhere, pls.

Second, that is all an answer to a question I did not ask, so it is not relevant. It has nothing to do with wheter it is prudent to believe things without seeing.

Except, I suppose, if one wants to use the example of how many young girls have gotten pregnant and abandoned over the years because they believed young men without verification….

Why can I beleive in something I can't see or touch?

You will notice that this is NOT the question I asked.

I asked if it was a good idea to “believe things you cannot see,” KNOWING that the context is not whether you can literally see it with unaided eyes, but whether you can verify that it exists.

I am well used to the Christians’ habit of saying, “because you ’believe in’ gravity even though you can’t see it,” as if the effects of gravity are not easily detectable and measurable, and they say this immediately followed by, a list of what they consider to be visible effects of their god even though they can’t see it. So we both know that we are talking about the ability to detect and measure, not being able to literally ”see” it. So let’s not have that nonsense derail. Atheists are well aware of the ability to detect without “seeing,” and we are well aware that this is the context of the passage, “Blessed are those who believe without seeing.”

“Blessed are those who believe without being able to detect. To verify. To validate.” That’s what your passage claims.

And so, the QUESTION AT HAND is whether it’s a good idea to believe something wihtout being able to detect it, validate it or verify it.


And so far, you have spend a good bit of typing to express that you think that is a scary proposition and you have therefore established a list of detections, verifications and validations that satisfy you so that you DO NOT have to “believe without seeing.”

It’s revealing, is it not?

Do you believe your mother loves you? (*my apologies if you are a little orphan annie etc, but)

You have no idea what you just stepped in.
Assumptions are dangerous.

chances are your mother and father loved you. Could you ever prove it? Can you see the love? But you have a type of knowledge that it truly exists.

Yes, indeed. One sees the effects of love, or… the absence of those effects. Quite.
And so, without seeing it, one cannot believe it.

If you can wrap your head around that, then you are beginning to see how we believe what we believe.

Remember that I did not ask you “how” you believed. I asked whether believing without seeing was prudent, and whether disasters could come from doing it.

But, indeed, we can all see that you are anxiously uncomfortable with the idea of believing without seeing, and so you look around and grab something that you “see,” so that you can “believe” without trauma.

Other than that, just look around at the perfection of a natural universe that we find ourselves in: with universal laws, an evolution that improves instead of falling apart, the beauty in a face or sunset - there is the real proof that a God exists. To think, as many do here, that it is just some grand fluke - THAT - that really is rich.

1I

In conclusion, your witness shows that you are aghast at the idea of believing without seeing, just as we are.

 

[Rhea]

Are you coming back to engage in discussion, @1ICrying ? I am internested in your answers to the question of why believing without seeing is beneficial to anyone besides conmen.

 

[1ICrying]

Are you coming back to engage in discussion, @1ICrying ? I am internested in your answers to the question of why believing without seeing is beneficial to anyone besides conmen.

Yes, Rhea, Ill be back to the Temple, promise. For now, ill just answer this quick...Of course, on an Earthly level, checking things out, weighing the bag to make sure its right, etc. makes sense, but on the spiritual level, its counter-intuitive to that. Then, it is trust in the Spirit that wins the day - you know...faith.

I have my down to earth reasons for believing the Bible (i can and will restate those at some point), and for those things that I can not answer or understand, then faith fills in the cracks. I know, how convenient you'll say - just gloss over anything that goes against my Belief. Well guess what - it works damn well. And therefore, I'm a believer who truly believes in the Bible and what it promises. Now maybe if I spent 10 years reading all the books that negate Christianity, Yes, I might slowly tear away at this faith im talking about. So why the F$%$ would I try to do that? If I handed over my golden ticket to the Chocolate Factory tour, I'm sure after 10 years of cutting it into small pieces for me, you would then successfully proclaim that the ticket never existed.

 

[Copernicus]

I have my down to earth reasons for believing the Bible (i can and will restate those at some point), and for those things that I can not answer or understand, then faith fills in the cracks. I know, how convenient you'll say - just gloss over anything that goes against my Belief. Well guess what - it works damn well. And therefore, I'm a believer who truly believes in the Bible and what it promises. Now maybe if I spent 10 years reading all the books that negate Christianity, Yes, I might slowly tear away at this faith im talking about. So why the F$%$ would I try to do that? If I handed over my golden ticket to the Chocolate Factory tour, I'm sure after 10 years of cutting it into small pieces for me, you would then successfully proclaim that the ticket never existed.

Faith works for you, but it also works for anyone believing any religion or no religion. You are not the only person on the planet who has faith in a religious and/or political doctrine, and not all of those faiths and doctrines are compatible with yours. So you don't need to read any books that negate Christianity at all. All you need to do is figure out why you think others would want to adopt your particular faith in your particular religion. After all, you came here to convince others of that, didn't you? And, if that's what you want to do, then telling others that you have faith in your doctrine isn't a very compelling reason for others to adopt it. Hence, people ask what your reasons are such that you even need faith to fill in the cracks in them. Since I don't know your reasons, I don't see any cracks in them. Hence, I don't need faith to fill in those cracks.