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Time to stop being a consumer...

I have argued that economic growth is not an absolute necessity, but is just a symptom of excessive borrowing
So true. I never understood why developed counties must always have economic growth, even when no new and revolutionary products are being offered. Why is it every god damn business must grow and grow?
 
I have argued that economic growth is not an absolute necessity, but is just a symptom of excessive borrowing
So true. I never understood why developed counties must always have economic growth, even when no new and revolutionary products are being offered. Why is it every god damn business must grow and grow?

Many businesses appear to be built on a need for growth. If the demand for building new houses, for instance, grinds to a halt because the population figure is becoming stable, what happens to the building industry? The suppliers, manufactures, delivery companies, drivers, etc? Replacement alone may not be enough to keep it all going. We'd probably have to evolve a new economic system.
 
Not "probably" - we have to evolve as an economy. I don't know what the answer is, but I do see a problem with the constant need for "growth" and consumerism. It is unsustainable and an environmental hazard.
 
So true. I never understood why developed counties must always have economic growth, even when no new and revolutionary products are being offered. Why is it every god damn business must grow and grow?

Many businesses appear to be built on a need for growth. If the demand for building new houses, for instance, grinds to a halt because the population figure is becoming stable, what happens to the building industry? The suppliers, manufactures, delivery companies, drivers, etc? Replacement alone may not be enough to keep it all going. We'd probably have to evolve a new economic system.

Not "probably" - we have to evolve as an economy. I don't know what the answer is, but I do see a problem with the constant need for "growth" and consumerism. It is unsustainable and an environmental hazard.

Bingo

And not just business, but things like retirement and social security http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/effectiveRates.html
 
And now that I actually clicked the link to read the article:

Crawling from the Wreckage John Watkinson, in his latest instalment for El Reg, argues that consumerism, as it is practised today, is an invention that now does more harm than good both to quality of life and the environment. We are on a driverless train to nowhere and we need to jump off.
. :lol:
 
The problem is a real one. We are consuming resources that can't be replaced. We waste too much.

But he quickly goes off the rails. Big business isn't involved in a massive conspiracy to force consumers to borrow money, to buy too much, they are responding to consumers' demand. They are giving us what we want within the rules that establish the market.

The mechanism of capitalism is businesses and consumers responding to incentives in the market, to make money, within the ground rules set up to govern the market. It is a feedback mechanism. It can't plan ahead to avoid obvious problems years ahead, there has to be adult supervision that can. This is the role that naturally falls to government and it is the point of failure in the current world economy. Especially in the Anglo American governments.

What progress we have had toward a more sustainable economy has been due to government action to change the rules, to require the more sustainable direction. Big business is especially myoptic in this regard, they oppose these changes because they don't want to change. All the more reason that we should ignore them.

He misses on other points. Government debt doesn't produce more private debt. The opposite is true. If the government were to increase taxes to balance the budget and to pay off the national debt it would decrease private savings and increase private debt.

Changing and improving technology isn't the problem, it is the solution, if it is correctly directed. We have low fuel consumption in cars because government regulations forced the technology that provided them. Not because the manufacturers wanted to spend the money or that the customers wanted to spend the money but because the government required it. It is the same reason that we have long lasting light bulbs that produce the same amount of light with only one quarter of the energy.
 
I have argued that economic growth is not an absolute necessity, but is just a symptom of excessive borrowing
So true. I never understood why developed counties must always have economic growth, even when no new and revolutionary products are being offered. Why is it every god damn business must grow and grow?
Every business does not have to grow. Some collapse and go out of business because they can not compete. Their competition produces better and/or cheaper products so consumers buy from their competition rather than them. But as long as the population is increasing then the businesses that are producing what the consumers want and/or need have to grow to supply it. Any well managed company will focus on trying to out-compete the competition by always improving their product to produce a better/cheaper version. Better designed, more inovative, and cheaper products are good.
 
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I have argued that economic growth is not an absolute necessity, but is just a symptom of excessive borrowing
So true. I never understood why developed counties must always have economic growth, even when no new and revolutionary products are being offered. Why is it every god damn business must grow and grow?
Why do you think that all companies must grow? The majority of companies flat line at some point and then decline. The issue is that growth generally leads to higher profits and healthier companies. Profit attracts investors. They usually pay higher wages and attract higher caliber workers.
 
.............snip...............
Changing and improving technology isn't the problem, it is the solution, if it is correctly directed. We have low fuel consumption in cars because government regulations forced the technology that provided them. Not because the manufacturers wanted to spend the money or that the customers wanted to spend the money but because the government required it. It is the same reason that we have long lasting light bulbs that produce the same amount of light with only one quarter of the energy.
Improved or appropriate technology doesn't need to be directed by regulation. It can and is directed by demand.

An example:
In the 1950s, the trend in automobile design was toward ever larger and more powerful cars because that is what people wanted. In the late 1950's Ford introduced a real road boat called the Edsel to compete with other large luxury sized cars. It was a flop because gas prices had started climbing so people now wanted more fuel efficient cars. In response to the popular demand, in the early 1960s Ford introduced the Mustang (a small economy car when first introduced) soon to be followed by the Falcon. The Mustang was a roaring success, one of the most successful models ever produced in Detroit.
 
.............snip...............
Changing and improving technology isn't the problem, it is the solution, if it is correctly directed. We have low fuel consumption in cars because government regulations forced the technology that provided them. Not because the manufacturers wanted to spend the money or that the customers wanted to spend the money but because the government required it. It is the same reason that we have long lasting light bulbs that produce the same amount of light with only one quarter of the energy.
Improved or appropriate technology doesn't need to be directed by regulation. It can and is directed by demand.

An example:
In the 1950s, the trend in automobile design was toward ever larger and more powerful cars because that is what people wanted. In the late 1950's Ford introduced a real road boat called the Edsel to compete with other large luxury sized cars. It was a flop because gas prices had started climbing so people now wanted more fuel efficient cars. In response to the popular demand, in the early 1960s Ford introduced the Mustang (a small economy car when first introduced) soon to be followed by the Falcon. The Mustang was a roaring success, one of the most successful models ever produced in Detroit.

Actually the Falcon (introduced 1960) came before the Mustang (1964). The Mustang was built on the Falcon platform.
 
...I don't know what the answer is, but I do see a problem with the constant need for "growth" and consumerism. It is unsustainable and an environmental hazard.

Crawling from the Wreckage John Watkinson, in his latest instalment for El Reg, argues that consumerism, as it is practised today, is an invention that now does more harm than good both to quality of life and the environment. We are on a driverless train to nowhere and we need to jump off.
.

The problem is a real one. We are consuming resources that can't be replaced. We waste too much.
Who told you that? How did you conclude that, other than by consulting your "feelngs"?

...The mechanism of capitalism is businesses and consumers responding to incentives in the market, to make money, within the ground rules set up to govern the market. It is a feedback mechanism. It can't plan ahead to avoid obvious problems years ahead, there has to be adult supervision that can. This is the role that naturally falls to government and it is the point of failure in the current world economy. Especially in the Anglo American governments.
So you believe that consumers and producers are not "adults", meaning that are unable to form "mature" consumer needs/wants, and providers are unable and/or unwilling to predict and plan for those future needs/wants?

What "obvious problems years ahead" does Telsa or Apple fail to appreciate in their future product development planning? What gift of insight are federal bureaucrats gifted with, not available to millions of the private world of production, marketing, and distribution?

What progress we have had toward a more sustainable economy has been due to government action to change the rules, to require the more sustainable direction. Big business is especially myoptic in this regard, they oppose these changes because they don't want to change. All the more reason that we should ignore them.
If you are faithful to your prior logic, you are actually saying is that consumers, workers, and and the providers are myoptic, and they must be ignored. And if they opposed change, would not consumers and providers have stuck with their Pintos, vinyl records, and appliances?

Change is NOT what they oppose - what they seem to oppose is making a lifestyle or monetary sacrifice based on the suspect preferences of Washington's "adult" class of politicians and bureaucrats.

Changing and improving technology isn't the problem, it is the solution, if it is correctly directed.
These folks hate change? So the Washington DC "adults" need to direct improving technology, because without it we would still be driving stationwagons and 1975 Ford Pintos?

We have low fuel consumption in cars because government regulations forced the technology that provided them. Not because the manufacturers wanted to spend the money or that the customers wanted to spend the money but because the government required it. It is the same reason that we have long lasting light bulbs that produce the same amount of light with only one quarter of the energy.
That is partially true. Higher gas prices in the 1970s, rationing, and new CAFE standards forced the demise of some classes of vehicles (e.g. the station wagon), the later adoption of partially CAFE exempt minivans and true compact pickups, and the first generation of relentlessly crappy cars out of Detroit.

The 74 Corvette started with a laughable 195 HP, and the V-8 Mustang was power-choked with pollution controls. But hey, I think you could still floor it in your Rambler or Gremlin...;)

So yes we got lower fuel consumption, not because consumers wanted it but because the Washington adults decided that people should not have the freedom to provide and purchase what the American consumer wants. How is this "good"? Why is it any of Washington's business?
 
So true. I never understood why developed counties must always have economic growth, even when no new and revolutionary products are being offered. Why is it every god damn business must grow and grow?

Many businesses appear to be built on a need for growth. If the demand for building new houses, for instance, grinds to a halt because the population figure is becoming stable, what happens to the building industry? The suppliers, manufactures, delivery companies, drivers, etc? Replacement alone may not be enough to keep it all going. We'd probably have to evolve a new economic system.

If the demand for horse buggies and whips ground to a halt, what happens to the horse buggy and whip industry?
 
.............snip...............
Changing and improving technology isn't the problem, it is the solution, if it is correctly directed. We have low fuel consumption in cars because government regulations forced the technology that provided them. Not because the manufacturers wanted to spend the money or that the customers wanted to spend the money but because the government required it. It is the same reason that we have long lasting light bulbs that produce the same amount of light with only one quarter of the energy.
Improved or appropriate technology doesn't need to be directed by regulation. It can and is directed by demand.

An example:
In the 1950s, the trend in automobile design was toward ever larger and more powerful cars because that is what people wanted. In the late 1950's Ford introduced a real road boat called the Edsel to compete with other large luxury sized cars. It was a flop because gas prices had started climbing so people now wanted more fuel efficient cars. In response to the popular demand, in the early 1960s Ford introduced the Mustang (a small economy car when first introduced) soon to be followed by the Falcon. The Mustang was a roaring success, one of the most successful models ever produced in Detroit.

This would be the same Ford Mustang with the drop in gas tank that was three times as likely to explode on rear impact as any other car on the road at the time?

And don't get my started on the Pinto.

Too Late, I am already started

Why did Sandra Gillespie's Ford Pinto catch fire so easily, seven years after Ford's Arjay Miller made his apparently sincere pronouncements—the same seven years that brought more safety improvements to cars than any other period in automotive history? An extensive investigation by Mother Jones over the past six months has found these answers:

Fighting strong competition from Volkswagen for the lucrative small-car market, the Ford Motor Company rushed the Pinto into production in much less than the usual time.
Ford engineers discovered in pre-production crash tests that rear-end collisions would rupture the Pinto's fuel system extremely easily.
Because assembly-line machinery was already tooled when engineers found this defect, top Ford officials decided to manufacture the car anyway—exploding gas tank and all—even though Ford owned the patent on a much safer gas tank.
For more than eight years afterwards, Ford successfully lobbied, with extraordinary vigor and some blatant lies, against a key government safety standard that would have forced the company to change the Pinto's fire-prone gas tank.
By conservative estimates Pinto crashes have caused 500 burn deaths to people who would not have been seriously injured if the car had not burst into flames. The figure could be as high as 900. Burning Pintos have become such an embarrassment to Ford that its advertising agency, J. Walter Thompson, dropped a line from the end of a radio spot that read "Pinto leaves you with that warm feeling."

Ford knows the Pinto is a firetrap, yet it has paid out millions to settle damage suits out of court, and it is prepared to spend millions more lobbying against safety standards. With a half million cars rolling off the assembly lines each year, Pinto is the biggest-selling subcompact in America, and the company's operating profit on the car is fantastic. Finally, in 1977, new Pinto models have incorporated a few minor alterations necessary to meet that federal standard Ford managed to hold off for eight years. Why did the company delay so long in making these minimal, inexpensive improvements?

Ford waited eight years because its internal "cost-benefit analysis," which places a dollar value on human life, said it wasn't profitable to make the changes sooner.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness

Yeah cause demand kept the cars safe...

no, wait...
 
Crawling from the Wreckage John Watkinson, in his latest instalment for El Reg, argues that consumerism, as it is practised today, is an invention that now does more harm than good both to quality of life and the environment. We are on a driverless train to nowhere and we need to jump off.
.

The problem is a real one. We are consuming resources that can't be replaced. We waste too much.
Who told you that? How did you conclude that, other than by consulting your "feelngs"?

...The mechanism of capitalism is businesses and consumers responding to incentives in the market, to make money, within the ground rules set up to govern the market. It is a feedback mechanism. It can't plan ahead to avoid obvious problems years ahead, there has to be adult supervision that can. This is the role that naturally falls to government and it is the point of failure in the current world economy. Especially in the Anglo American governments.
So you believe that consumers and producers are not "adults", meaning that are unable to form "mature" consumer needs/wants, and providers are unable and/or unwilling to predict and plan for those future needs/wants?

What "obvious problems years ahead" does Telsa or Apple fail to appreciate in their future product development planning? What gift of insight are federal bureaucrats gifted with, not available to millions of the private world of production, marketing, and distribution?

What progress we have had toward a more sustainable economy has been due to government action to change the rules, to require the more sustainable direction. Big business is especially myoptic in this regard, they oppose these changes because they don't want to change. All the more reason that we should ignore them.
If you are faithful to your prior logic, you are actually saying is that consumers, workers, and and the providers are myoptic, and they must be ignored. And if they opposed change, would not consumers and providers have stuck with their Pintos, vinyl records, and appliances?

Change is NOT what they oppose - what they seem to oppose is making a lifestyle or monetary sacrifice based on the suspect preferences of Washington's "adult" class of politicians and bureaucrats.

Changing and improving technology isn't the problem, it is the solution, if it is correctly directed.
These folks hate change? So the Washington DC "adults" need to direct improving technology, because without it we would still be driving stationwagons and 1975 Ford Pintos?

We have low fuel consumption in cars because government regulations forced the technology that provided them. Not because the manufacturers wanted to spend the money or that the customers wanted to spend the money but because the government required it. It is the same reason that we have long lasting light bulbs that produce the same amount of light with only one quarter of the energy.
That is partially true. Higher gas prices in the 1970s, rationing, and new CAFE standards forced the demise of some classes of vehicles (e.g. the station wagon), the later adoption of partially CAFE exempt minivans and true compact pickups, and the first generation of relentlessly crappy cars out of Detroit.

The 74 Corvette started with a laughable 195 HP, and the V-8 Mustang was power-choked with pollution controls. But hey, I think you could still floor it in your Rambler or Gremlin...;)

So yes we got lower fuel consumption, not because consumers wanted it but because the Washington adults decided that people should not have the freedom to provide and purchase what the American consumer wants. How is this "good"? Why is it any of Washington's business?

Spoken like a true CONSUMER! As long as we have you, the CONSUMER isn't dead. Never mind the pollution and the waste.

I voted for Ralph Nader for president in two elections because his actions saved American lives rather than cost them. Air bags and seat belts save lives and that is backed by hard figures. Legislation was required to make the auto makers get busy and "innovate." True the idea didn't come from the government, but without the government thousands of people would have been catapulted through their windshields and killed. Meanwhile that "defender of human rights" fought tooth and nail against this innovation.

I was around when seatbelts all around became the law. I was still a kid working in a gas station. After market seatbelts were part of what I did (install them). Consumers had not cared much about them and the good old market based industries up to that time had not done due diligence in terms of safety. That great, innovative, imaginative private sector had not done a fucking thing but fight seat belts. There is a need for government and it needs to intervene sometimes, but our government is now in the hands of those elected officials who are sponsored by the people who need to be regulated.

There was a right and a wrong on the seat belt issue. It is the same with many environmental issues today. These issues are life and death for a lot of people. Dealing with them is the humane thing to be doing. I don't carp about the fact that a car doesn't have neck snapping acceleration...but then, I guess I am not a consumer?
 
Improved or appropriate technology doesn't need to be directed by regulation. It can and is directed by demand.

An example:
In the 1950s, the trend in automobile design was toward ever larger and more powerful cars because that is what people wanted. In the late 1950's Ford introduced a real road boat called the Edsel to compete with other large luxury sized cars. It was a flop because gas prices had started climbing so people now wanted more fuel efficient cars. In response to the popular demand, in the early 1960s Ford introduced the Mustang (a small economy car when first introduced) soon to be followed by the Falcon. The Mustang was a roaring success, one of the most successful models ever produced in Detroit.

This would be the same Ford Mustang with the drop in gas tank that was three times as likely to explode on rear impact as any other car on the road at the time?

And don't get my started on the Pinto.

Too Late, I am already started

Why did Sandra Gillespie's Ford Pinto catch fire so easily, seven years after Ford's Arjay Miller made his apparently sincere pronouncements—the same seven years that brought more safety improvements to cars than any other period in automotive history? An extensive investigation by Mother Jones over the past six months has found these answers:

Fighting strong competition from Volkswagen for the lucrative small-car market, the Ford Motor Company rushed the Pinto into production in much less than the usual time.
Ford engineers discovered in pre-production crash tests that rear-end collisions would rupture the Pinto's fuel system extremely easily.
Because assembly-line machinery was already tooled when engineers found this defect, top Ford officials decided to manufacture the car anyway—exploding gas tank and all—even though Ford owned the patent on a much safer gas tank.
For more than eight years afterwards, Ford successfully lobbied, with extraordinary vigor and some blatant lies, against a key government safety standard that would have forced the company to change the Pinto's fire-prone gas tank.
By conservative estimates Pinto crashes have caused 500 burn deaths to people who would not have been seriously injured if the car had not burst into flames. The figure could be as high as 900. Burning Pintos have become such an embarrassment to Ford that its advertising agency, J. Walter Thompson, dropped a line from the end of a radio spot that read "Pinto leaves you with that warm feeling."

Ford knows the Pinto is a firetrap, yet it has paid out millions to settle damage suits out of court, and it is prepared to spend millions more lobbying against safety standards. With a half million cars rolling off the assembly lines each year, Pinto is the biggest-selling subcompact in America, and the company's operating profit on the car is fantastic. Finally, in 1977, new Pinto models have incorporated a few minor alterations necessary to meet that federal standard Ford managed to hold off for eight years. Why did the company delay so long in making these minimal, inexpensive improvements?

Ford waited eight years because its internal "cost-benefit analysis," which places a dollar value on human life, said it wasn't profitable to make the changes sooner.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness

Yeah cause demand kept the cars safe...

no, wait...

So this episode from almost 40 years ago that the liberal left can't wait to bring up at every opportunity had absolutely zero impact on future vehicle safety and recall decisions?

This chart below has nothing to do with demand?

highway2.jpg
 
Serious question for AA and others:

Although Ford had access to a new design which would decrease the possibility of the Ford Pinto from exploding, the company chose not to implement the design, which would have cost $11 per car, even though it had done an analysis showing that the new design would result in 180 less deaths. The company defended itself on the grounds that it used the accepted risk/benefit analysis to determine if the monetary costs of making the change were greater than the societal benefit. Based on the numbers Ford used, the cost would have been $137 million versus the $49.5 million price tag put on the deaths, injuries, and car damages, and thus Ford felt justified not implementing the design change. This risk/benefit analysis was created out of the development of product liability, culminating at Judge Learned Hand's BPL formula, where if the expected harm exceeded the cost to take the precaution, then the company must take the precaution, whereas if the cost was liable, then it did not have to. However, the BPL formula focuses on a specific accident, while the risk/benefit analysis requires an examination of the costs, risks, and benefits through use of the product as a whole. Based on this analysis, Ford legally chose not to make the design changes which would have made the Pinto safer. However, just because it was legal doesn't necessarily mean that it was ethical. It is difficult to understand how a price can be put on saving a human life.
There are several reasons why such a strictly economic theory should not be used. First, it seems unethical to determine that people should be allowed to die or be seriously injured because it would cost too much to prevent it. Second, the analysis does not take into all the consequences, such as the negative publicity that Ford received and the judgments and settlements resulting from the lawsuits. Also, some things just can't be measured in terms of dollars, and that includes human life. However, there are arguments in favor of the risk/benefit analysis. First, it is well developed through existing case law. Second, it encourages companies to take precautions against creating risks that result in large accident costs. Next, it can be argued that all things must have some common measure. Finally, it provides a bright line which companies can follow.

http://users.wfu.edu/palmitar/Law&Valuation/Papers/1999/Leggett-pinto.html

At what dollar cost per car would Ford no longer have been morally required to upgrade to the new fuel tank design to prevent the 180 deaths? The reality was that it was $11 per car (for total cost of $137 million). What if the cost would have been $100 per car? $1,000?
 
This would be the same Ford Mustang with the drop in gas tank that was three times as likely to explode on rear impact as any other car on the road at the time?

And don't get my started on the Pinto.

Too Late, I am already started

You realize that damning video of an accident causing a fire in the Pinto was the result of pyrotechnics? The fire went out on it's own after the pyro charge was spent.
 
Serious question for AA and others:

Although Ford had access to a new design which would decrease the possibility of the Ford Pinto from exploding, the company chose not to implement the design, which would have cost $11 per car, even though it had done an analysis showing that the new design would result in 180 less deaths. The company defended itself on the grounds that it used the accepted risk/benefit analysis to determine if the monetary costs of making the change were greater than the societal benefit. Based on the numbers Ford used, the cost would have been $137 million versus the $49.5 million price tag put on the deaths, injuries, and car damages, and thus Ford felt justified not implementing the design change. This risk/benefit analysis was created out of the development of product liability, culminating at Judge Learned Hand's BPL formula, where if the expected harm exceeded the cost to take the precaution, then the company must take the precaution, whereas if the cost was liable, then it did not have to. However, the BPL formula focuses on a specific accident, while the risk/benefit analysis requires an examination of the costs, risks, and benefits through use of the product as a whole. Based on this analysis, Ford legally chose not to make the design changes which would have made the Pinto safer. However, just because it was legal doesn't necessarily mean that it was ethical. It is difficult to understand how a price can be put on saving a human life.
There are several reasons why such a strictly economic theory should not be used. First, it seems unethical to determine that people should be allowed to die or be seriously injured because it would cost too much to prevent it. Second, the analysis does not take into all the consequences, such as the negative publicity that Ford received and the judgments and settlements resulting from the lawsuits. Also, some things just can't be measured in terms of dollars, and that includes human life. However, there are arguments in favor of the risk/benefit analysis. First, it is well developed through existing case law. Second, it encourages companies to take precautions against creating risks that result in large accident costs. Next, it can be argued that all things must have some common measure. Finally, it provides a bright line which companies can follow.

http://users.wfu.edu/palmitar/Law&Valuation/Papers/1999/Leggett-pinto.html

At what dollar cost per car would Ford no longer have been morally required to upgrade to the new fuel tank design to prevent the 180 deaths? The reality was that it was $11 per car (for total cost of $137 million). What if the cost would have been $100 per car? $1,000?

And even the government has to make tradeoffs. We could make our speed limits 1 mph and we would have no deaths on the roads.
 
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