Tom Hardy's Penis, offensive or art? (Split from movie rating thread)

[Angry Floof]

Bronson 10/10. Wow. Engaged from the start and only got better and didn't stop 'til the end. Tom Hardy is brilliant! I don't know why it took me so long to finally watch this. Crazy. He's a real life, one man fight club. Also, Tom Hardy is naked quite a lot. Amazing performance. Oh, and the sound track is fantastic.

 

[Thomas II]

Bronson 10/10. Wow. Engaged from the start and only got better and didn't stop 'til the end. Tom Hardy is brilliant! I don't know why it took me so long to finally watch this. Crazy. He's a real life, one man fight club. Also, Tom Hardy is naked quite a lot. Amazing performance. Oh, and the sound track is fantastic.

Definitely! Hardy is a chameleon. Amazing!

 

[another1]

I may be shallow and brainwashed but seeing Hardy's penis made me lose respect for him. Did you see it? His penis?

If you like Bronson, you'd probably like Chopper. Another relatively true story about jail and a really cool criminal.

 

[Angry Floof]

I may be shallow and brainwashed but seeing Hardy's penis made me lose respect for him. Did you see it? His penis?

I did see his lovely gadgetry, yes.

Why would that make you lose respect for him? The character spent a lot of time naked. It's reality.

If you like Bronson, you'd probably like Chopper. Another relatively true story about jail and a really cool criminal.

I'll check it out. Thanks.

 

[Thomas II]

I may be shallow and brainwashed but seeing Hardy's penis made me lose respect for him. Did you see it? His penis?

If you like Bronson, you'd probably like Chopper. Another relatively true story about jail and a really cool criminal.

I saw the trailer after Floof mentioned the movie. Have not seen the movie yet. Did not see his penis, just the way he transforms himself for a character. Hardy, the actor, is lost in the character...That is good acting...

 

[another1]

Why would that make you lose respect for him?

Something makes me squint at the sight of another man's junk. Expectations of girth in society make all men feel insecure. Length is actually MORE important, if you can believe that. We hide it from women but it really does bother us a lot. It may be behind a lot of the problems in the world. I just know that when I saw it, I thought of him differently. He was jumping around and rioting in the naked scenes, and so were his testes and penis. I feel it was a little unnecessary to show it in 200 scenes. But I'm a man with penis issues and that is reality I guess.

 

[Angry Floof]

Why would that make you lose respect for him?

Something makes me squint at the sight of another man's junk. Expectations of girth in society make all men feel insecure. Length is actually MORE important, if you can believe that. We hide it from women but it really does bother us a lot. It may be behind a lot of the problems in the world.

I wouldn't automatically assume that all women or most women prefer length or what length is best for all or most women. We don't work that way. Our bodies don't work that way.

I just know that when I saw it, I thought of him differently. He was jumping around and rioting in the naked scenes, and so were his testes and penis. I feel it was a little unnecessary to show it in 200 scenes. But I'm a man with penis issues and that is reality I guess.

You admit that it's your own prejudices that color your perception, and yet you still blame the film and the actor for your reaction. He was playing the role of a real life person, a person who did all the things you see in the film, and much of it was done while naked.

I also note that the film is almost non-stop violence, which is appropriate to the story and not merely gratuitous in this case, but still very violent and that apparently doesn't register on your moral objection scale. I find this interesting. Nudity is the reality of Charlie Bronson, but even more so, violence.

You explained why seeing penis offends you, but does violence offend you at least as much as Tom Hardy's penis does?

 

[Keith&Co.]

I wouldn't automatically assume that all women or most women prefer length or what length is best for all or most women. We don't work that way. Our bodies don't work that way.

Yeah, but you're not another1. He seems fond of unsupported absolutist generalizations, such as:

Expectations of girth in society make all men feel insecure....

I, for one, am not fucking society, so society's expectations about my dick have little to no impact on my self esteem.

As to Tom Hardy, or any actor/actress that's nude on camera, I don't lose respect for them for doing what the director told them to do. It's when they express regrets later. Ben Stiller showed his ass in Along Came Polly, and complains now that no one told him a body double was an option.

 

[Thomas II]

Before and after pictures - Tom Hardy, for the movie "Bronson".

 

[another1]

You admit that it's your own prejudices that color your perception

Yes. What else do I have to go on? My perception colors my prejudices, as I see it. Maybe I said that wrong but it looks legit from here.

You explained why seeing penis offends you, but does violence offend you at least as much as Tom Hardy's penis does?

Always a good point. And yes, penises bother me more than murder does. I could watch murder all day and laugh. Throw a penis into the mix of carnage and there goes my night. Ruined. Violence is funny. It is natural, and it is what I am supposed to like. Obviously I am supposed to like it. So I do like it. A lot. Penises are supposed to be kept a secret. Is nothing sacred?

Keith you must be a rare exception. Most men do not like seeing penises that do not belong to them. It doesn't belong in cinema unless it is supposed to be artsy and stupid. Vaginas make me feel pretty icky when I see those, so I'm not discriminating. Like a choice between a sea slug or a flesh eel. Hmm, which makes me more comfortable to see in my "entertainment"?

 

[Angry Floof]

Yes. What else do I have to go on? My perception colors my prejudices, as I see it. Maybe I said that wrong but it looks legit from here.

Well, perceptions are not set in stone.

You explained why seeing penis offends you, but does violence offend you at least as much as Tom Hardy's penis does?

Always a good point. And yes, penises bother me more than murder does. I could watch murder all day and laugh. Throw a penis into the mix of carnage and there goes my night. Ruined. Violence is funny. It is natural, and it is what I am supposed to like. Obviously I am supposed to like it. So I do like it. A lot. Penises are supposed to be kept a secret. Is nothing sacred?

It's cultural. There are cultures that have little or no problem with ordinary nudity. Ours and most of the Western world have a problem with the sight of a relaxed penis but an unending appetite for violence, I agree. But social norms and programming are not set in stone, either. Your reactions and thoughts are not set in stone. The justifications you come up with to excuse yourself from doing the scary work of examining your own world view, those are not set in stone, either.

Keith you must be a rare exception. Most men do not like seeing penises that do not belong to them. It doesn't belong in cinema unless it is supposed to be artsy and stupid. Vaginas make me feel pretty icky when I see those, so I'm not discriminating. Like a choice between a sea slug or a flesh eel. Hmm, which makes me more comfortable to see in my "entertainment"?

He's not really that rare. Hetero men may not get pleasure from looking at a penis but no, not all men react negatively to simply catching a glimpse another man's junk in a movie or even in real life in locker rooms or whatever.

I know homophobia is part and parcel to our culture these days with all the posturing and defensiveness from screeching bigots that comes with it. But again, most grown men in the US are not threatened by homosexuality. (You might notice that those are the same men who are also not threatened by feminism, or talking about vaginas and periods and bras, or seeing a vagina.)

 

[another1]

It is Big League late to change our culture and penises are gross anyways. I am reduced daily, as a male in the United States. Expressing my masculinity is alienating me here. You don't see it like that, and I feel like maybe you should understand what I am saying. Shaking a penis on a movie screen is like saying "hey screw you American male, We're taking everything you have. Nothing Is Sacred.

 

[Angry Floof]

It is Big League late to change our culture and penises are gross anyways. I am reduced daily, as a male in the United States. Expressing my masculinity is alienating me here. You don't see it like that, and I feel like maybe you should understand what I am saying.

Actually, I do understand. I also understand that even some of our stro ngest responses to things are largely cultural, not necessarily innate. Much of what we find repulsive or desirable is learned. But as I said, I do understand it. If I were to move to a society where all women go topless in public, I would not be the least offended by the sight of boobs, although I would definitely not be comfortable going topless myself. I recognize that this is how I have been conditioned to think about certain things. Recognizing that doesn't automatically make me comfortable with going topless myself. There's a reason our social conditioning works so well - we feel it.

Such is the nature of a complex intelligent social species, and it's nearly invisible to us, like background programs running. We have no way of seeing our own biases until we encounter something that clashes with it. Then we feel it. You and I both live in a society that has lots of nudity taboos. If you or I were forced to be nude in public, we would feel that for sure. We'd feel embarrassed, or confused, or ashamed, or traumatized, or all of the above. Imagine that feeling of public humiliation for a moment. That'll keep anyone from disrobing in public ever again. Well, most anyone. There's always exceptions. But yes, I do understand how powerful conditioning is. I have been publicly shamed and demeaned, and I can tell you, I felt it, and still do sometimes.

But that's not the same as judging an unfamiliar custom as inferior to my own. It possibly could be argued that my culture's customs are superior to some others, I don't know. I have no rational reasoning that led me to be more comfortable clothed in public, so I can't argue that my way is superior unless I find some suitable reasoning for it. Only I'm not inclined to do that because I don't have to figure out why I wear clothes in public. I do it because I've been conditioned to do it since infancy. Social enforcement often comes in the form of shame or condemnation from the group, meaning all those people we can't live without. We're natural conformers, but fortunately, that's not all we are. We are also the "knowing species," as Daniel Dennett puts it. We have the capacity to figure ourselves out to a great extent. We can think about our thoughts. Even that process itself is subject to our subconscious motivations and biases, so we devise methods to help: the tools of science, writing, self inquiry.

Shaking a penis on a movie screen is like saying "hey screw you American male, We're taking everything you have. Nothing Is Sacred.

No, it isn't. Someone shaking a penis on a movie screen is just someone shaking a penis on a movie screen.

Also, penises are not gross.

 

[rousseau]

Actually, I do understand. I also understand that even some of our strongest responses to things are largely cultural, not necessarily innate. Much of what we find repulsive or desirable is learned.

This reminded me of an interesting tweet I read within the past few months, that went something like this:

"Hypothesis: Most emotions people feel are actually just cached responses"

Ever since hearing the idea I've noticed it in practice more and more. There is a small time between stimulation, and when a response needs to be made, and so for most the default response will be the one known to be socially safe and correct, and which can be quickly accessed by the mind.

So for the most part, what passes as rational discourse between two people, is actually, as you say, a series of learned responses that the two parties use which they know won't cause any social discord.

 

[Thomas II]

It is Big League late to change our culture and penises are gross anyways. I am reduced daily, as a male in the United States. Expressing my masculinity is alienating me here. You don't see it like that, and I feel like maybe you should understand what I am saying. Shaking a penis on a movie screen is like saying "hey screw you American male, We're taking everything you have. Nothing Is Sacred.

I hear you. But let's not mix everything.
I still haven't seen the movie, so I can't say how Hardy's dick on screen will affect me, but I did a little research and the issue is that the character (Bronson), historically, is always naked in jail.
But you have every right to avoid any movie if it offends you in ANY way. I do that all the time.
Regarding penis size, it's not really that important...Lesbians don't have a dick, and they can make a woman come just fine, so you have a tongue,
teeth, lips, hands, arms, legs, feet, and specially your brain, to use in addition to your penis. There are certain techniques that are very helpful. You can find some receptive female and practice away. Don't feel alienated here. This is not a place for that.
Have fun!

 

[Keith&Co.]

Keith you must be a rare exception. Most men do not like seeing penises that do not belong to them.

He's not really that rare. Hetero men may not get pleasure from looking at a penis but no, not all men react negatively to simply catching a glimpse another man's junk in a movie or even in real life in locker rooms or whatever.

This is why i tend to think communicating with another1 is a lost cause.
I stated that i don't lose respect for an actor, not that I like seeing a dick on screen. He's having his own conversation, just like always.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'd like to start a new derail within this derail. The new discussion topic is: Charlie Bronson, a modern Diogenes?

 

[Underseer]

Why would that make you lose respect for him?

Something makes me squint at the sight of another man's junk. Expectations of girth in society make all men feel insecure. Length is actually MORE important, if you can believe that. We hide it from women but it really does bother us a lot. It may be behind a lot of the problems in the world. I just know that when I saw it, I thought of him differently. He was jumping around and rioting in the naked scenes, and so were his testes and penis. I feel it was a little unnecessary to show it in 200 scenes. But I'm a man with penis issues and that is reality I guess.

Women have had to endure staring at sexualized images of their own gender in popular media far more than men. I'm not crazy about seeing penis, but I figure that if women can put up with it, then so can I.

 

[another1]

Much of what we find repulsive or desirable is learned.

Of course. Everything is learned. I'm not intentionally being difficult when I say that I don't understand how that is an actual point. I'm also not trying to be rude.

If I were to move to a society where all women go topless in public, I would not be the least offended by the sight of boobs, although I would definitely not be comfortable going topless myself.

You wouldn't be offended by the sight of boobs? I'm offended even if they are "nice" boobs. They show vaginas on the big screen. I'm not comfortable with that but everyone else is partying because we (they) get to offend everyone else - while making ourselves (themselves) feel better about being better. And somehow Hardy's penis squeezes in somewhere with the fact that they do not show ful-on, gaping vagina on the big screen. You can never actually see INTO a woman's vagina unless it is porn. I said you don't understand with that in mind. Hardy's penis is just the tip of an issue that does go deeper than we can handle. Attempting this could get messy.

But yes, I do understand how powerful conditioning is

My point wasn't about conditioning. I haven't been "conditioned" to feel any kind of way. The naked bastards are the problem. Not me and my self image. Not the way I've been conditioned to imagine the image. Living naked any time you want would just make you an asshole. I think the actual conditioning important to point out, is in being led to believe that it is alright to do the things you're saying I'm conditioned to resist.

It possibly could be argued that my culture's customs are superior to some others

Definitely. I haven't had extended stays many places other than the South, but the general vibe i get is that all other places are total hell. Swinging dicks and plasma dripping vaginas as far as the eye can see. We do have it pretty great here... In public at least. A lot of the clothing in our culture does accent the genitals too much, but we're definitely much better off than some.

I don't have to figure out why I wear clothes in public. I do it because I've been conditioned to do it since infancy.

Maybe we wear clothes in public because it makes sense to wear clothes. They protect us from the elements and give us a sense of individuality. They have compartments to keep tings in. The list goes on. Humans have been wearing clothes since clothes existed, and clothes exist because humans need to wear clothes. They started by fashioning plants and animal furs, didn't they? We could DIE without clothes. We've known that since before history.

Social enforcement often comes in the form of shame or condemnation from the group, meaning all those people we can't live without

Like the group cheering Tom and his penis? The people shaming and condemning me because i want to hold on to deceny? Shaming me, because I still hold on to what you think is an archaic notion of concealing sacred reproductive organs. Even the most barbaric people at least keep them in sheaths. You seem to think that we all need to be naked, spreading bacteria, risking our lives in the elements... just to assume that we are allowed to allow ourselves to feel that we're free? Well, I'm free to wear clothing. I like hoodies. I like my shoes, without which I'd have died long ago. My jewelry serves as tools sometimes. You never know. Someday a button-fly may save my life. Clothes are practical. Nudity doesn't even exist unless you're not wearing any clothing. Know what I mean?

Someone shaking a penis on a movie screen is just someone shaking a penis on a movie screen.

I disagree. And Tom hardy's unit does more than shake, btw. There is a lot of twisting involved. His penis behaves like it is self aware. It is flacid in all scenes, yet somehow more offensive than an erect penis could ever be. I guess the fact that he was covered in feces didn't help the situation much either. And take in the fact that Hardy isn't circumcised. We never saw the sad frown on the head of his penis as it was forced to dance like an idiot for the sake of "art".

Check out Chopper's penis if you're into that sort of thing. I think Eric Bana (Chopper) is using a prosthetic penis, because it is humorously disproportionate. Intimidatingly even. That just goes along with Chopper's larger than life image. Chopper had a big hand in making the movie and it was doused by his ego. Not that he'd be any less of a man if he had a small hand in making the movie...

But you have every right to avoid any movie if it offends you in ANY way. I do that all the time

But I can't avoid the penises, Thomas. Here I am having a good time, eating my popcorn and thining everything is going to be Okay. Then, out somes a penis. A totally unnecessary one. Granted, Bronson the character is a very naked kinda guy, but they could have kept every bit of his story's integrity and "realness" intact - without the full frontal. Maybe 1/5 second frame of the penises' profile (with no shaking, jostling or free movement of any kind), would be acceptable.

Regarding penis size, you're totally right. Men can compensate just like animals can in the wild. If a ferret has a slightly malfunctioning penis, it probably just does a special little dance for potential mates. With some luck, it may reproduce. Birds do some crazy mating stuff. Reminds me of men and their cars. All natural stuff i guess. But you seem to think that I'm concerned with my own penis when it comes to the Hardy issue. I'll just quote the most powerful man on the planet and say "I guarantee you there is no problem".

I stated that i don't lose respect for an actor, not that I like seeing a dick on screen. He's having his own conversation, just like always.

At the time i responded to you, Keith, I was seeing Tom Hardy's penis as the end of masculinity in our precious world. I was thinking several things about this at once. I didn't actually lose respect for him as an actor, per se. I was just disappointed. They took his penis and used it against us. The penises are real, even though I can't shape them to smoothly glide through the demasculinization of mankind issue, and everything else that goes with this. That is why your help is always a blessing.

 

[Bronzeage]

A cock size discussion on TFT? Whodathunkit?