Top 10 feminist fiascoes

[Toni]

If I were to hang up a sexy fireman's calendar in my cubicle, assuming they are all covered up but wearing tight clothing that shows off very buff bodies, airbrushed where needed, overly sexualized, then the men I work with might worry if I took men seriously or if I only saw them as sex objects.

Do you really think so? Because I am pretty sure most men would see it as just a calendar of sexualized men, probably to perk you up on dreary days or something. Sure, not appropriate to a conservative workplace, but I dont think it is likely to make men question their self worth. Not by itself anyway.

No I don't think they would question their own self worth, probably but they might question how much I valued their work and their abilities. And they might well question my judgment and professionalism. This may not be true in all workplaces but it is in mine, which is STEM related. Actually, a number of years ago, lone of my female coworkers sent around an electronic firemen calendar to some of the ladies. She was asked by (male) management to delete it and all of the recipients did as well. It was considered inappropriate for a professional setting.

 

[Jokodo]

If I were to hang up a sexy fireman's calendar in my cubicle, assuming they are all covered up but wearing tight clothing that shows off very buff bodies, airbrushed where needed, overly sexualized, then the men I work with might worry if I took men seriously or if I only saw them as sex objects.

Do you really think so? Because I am pretty sure most men would see it as just a calendar of sexualized men, probably to perk you up on dreary days or something. Sure, not appropriate to a conservative workplace, but I dont think it is likely to make men question their self worth. Not by itself anyway.

Maybe not by itself, but the shirt doesn't exist by itself.
From Phil Plait's take on the matter, quoted earlier:

If you think this isn’t a big deal, well, by itself, it’s not a huge one. But it’s not by itself, is it? This event didn’t happen in a vacuum. It comes when there is still a tremendously leaky pipeline for women from undergraduate science classes to professional scientist. It comes when having a female name on an application to do research at a university makes it less likely to get accepted,† and have your research paper cited less. It comes when there is still not even close to parity in hiring and retaining women in the sciences.

So yeah, it’s just a shirt.

And it’s just an ad.

It’s just a saying.

It’s just a TV show.

It’s just the Internet.

Yes, but you almost make as much as a man does.

It’s just a catcall.

It’s a compliment!

It’s just that boys will be boys.

It’s just that she’s a slut.

It’s just that your dress is too short.

It’s just that we want to know what you were wearing at the time, ma’am.

It’s just it’s just it’s just.

It’s just a death by a thousand cuts.

 

[bigfield]

Do you really think so? Because I am pretty sure most men would see it as just a calendar of sexualized men, probably to perk you up on dreary days or something. Sure, not appropriate to a conservative workplace, but I dont think it is likely to make men question their self worth. Not by itself anyway.

No I don't think they would question their own self worth, probably but they might question how much I valued their work and their abilities. And they might well question my judgment and professionalism. This may not be true in all workplaces but it is in mine, which is STEM related. Actually, a number of years ago, lone of my female coworkers sent around an electronic firemen calendar to some of the ladies. She was asked by (male) management to delete it and all of the recipients did as well. It was considered inappropriate for a professional setting.

That should make you happy: A workplace where sexualised imagery is banned.

It doesn't tell you anything about how it made men feel.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Are wearing a possibly offensive shirt and sexually harassing someone even in the same category?

 

[Underseer]

If I were to hang up a sexy fireman's calendar in my cubicle, assuming they are all covered up but wearing tight clothing that shows off very buff bodies, airbrushed where needed, overly sexualized, then the men I work with might worry if I took men seriously or if I only saw them as sex objects.

Do you really think so? Because I am pretty sure most men would see it as just a calendar of sexualized men, probably to perk you up on dreary days or something. Sure, not appropriate to a conservative workplace, but I dont think it is likely to make men question their self worth. Not by itself anyway.

This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum, you know.

If a man sees a poster at work full of sexualized images of men, it simply doesn't have the same impact as the reverse case. Why? Because men are not bombarded with non-verbal messages from society that their only worth is in their physical attractiveness. A woman could win the Nobel prize and idiots all over the world will instantly ask "Well yeah, but is she good-looking?" as if making a significant intellectual contribution to humanity is of no consequence. Conversely, a woman as stupid and evil as Jenny McCarthy can give advice on national TV that endangers the lives of children, but because she is good-looking people will still admire her and keep inviting her back on TV.

Time and time again, society reinforces the idea that the only thing of value a woman has is her physical attractiveness. Is it any wonder most women are completely fucking neurotic about their appearance?

In that environment, plastering sexualized images of women in the workplace helps to reinforce that message to any woman in the workplace, that the only thing that matters about them is whether or not they are physically attractive.

If you plaster highly sexualized pictures of good-looking men in the workplace, it simply does not have the same effect. The closest you could come to a similar but opposite effect would be a calendar full of rich men or a calendar full of men with large penises, and even then it simply would not be as bad because society does not constantly tell men that we are worthless because we are not as rich as Bill Gates or that we are worthless because our penises are not as large as those of porn stars.

I simply do not understand this attitude people have that the members of the privileged group always have it exactly as bad as people in the non-privileged group, particularly when it is usually the people in the privileged group that are directly or indirectly causing the problems the people in the non-privileged group have to endure.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Are wearing a possibly offensive shirt and sexually harassing someone even in the same category?

Apparently so, if it is a shirt full of cartoon women.

Now let us all join hands and walk on the egg shells in unison.

 

[Toni]

No I don't think they would question their own self worth, probably but they might question how much I valued their work and their abilities. And they might well question my judgment and professionalism. This may not be true in all workplaces but it is in mine, which is STEM related. Actually, a number of years ago, lone of my female coworkers sent around an electronic firemen calendar to some of the ladies. She was asked by (male) management to delete it and all of the recipients did as well. It was considered inappropriate for a professional setting.

That should make you happy: A workplace where sexualised imagery is banned.

It doesn't tell you anything about how it made men feel.

I don't actually know how many men saw it but I am certain it was a man who brought it to management attention. At least one guy teased the woman who sent it around r a bit about how sexist it was. The calendar was also humorous and while I thought it was funny I didn't think it was appropriate for our particular workplace.

 

[bigfield]

That should make you happy: A workplace where sexualised imagery is banned.

It doesn't tell you anything about how it made men feel.

I don't actually know how many men saw it but I am certain it was a man who brought it to management attention. At least one guy teased the woman who sent it around r a bit about how sexist it was. The calendar was also humorous and while I thought it was funny I didn't think it was appropriate for our particular workplace.

Now I'm curious.

Why in your opinion was it not appropriate for your particular workplace.

And if it wasn'r appropriate for your particular workplace, then what workplaces would it be appropriate for?

 

[Terrell]

That should make you happy: A workplace where sexualised imagery is banned.

It doesn't tell you anything about how it made men feel.

I don't actually know how many men saw it but I am certain it was a man who brought it to management attention. At least one guy teased the woman who sent it around r a bit about how sexist it was. The calendar was also humorous and while I thought it was funny I didn't think it was appropriate for our particular workplace.

It's not unbelievable that the guy didn't feel demeaned or undervalued about the issue. Maybe he saw that women would be potentially allowed to have sexualized pictures of men, while men were not allowed to do the same with sexualized pictures of women. More of an opposition to double standards that aren't beneficial from his point of view.

 

[Toni]

I don't actually know how many men saw it but I am certain it was a man who brought it to management attention. At least one guy teased the woman who sent it around r a bit about how sexist it was. The calendar was also humorous and while I thought it was funny I didn't think it was appropriate for our particular workplace.

Now I'm curious.

Why in your opinion was it not appropriate for your particular workplace.

And if it wasn'r appropriate for your particular workplace, then what workplaces would it be appropriate for?

It wasn't appropriate for my workplace because of the type of work we do and because of the workplace culture and a host of similar reasons. Inclusion, the highest ethical standards, all of that are very core and even the appearance of anything else would be very much against the core values. My workplace---the whole organization--is very image conscious. My particular work unit is relatively relaxed. Relatively being the operative word. We laugh and joke and poke fun at our own and each other's foibles but not in front of management. And mostly our own foibles.

I've worked in other types of work, where harassment was common place and was always one directional: men harassing women, who were expected to take it and not speak up or, heaven forbid, turn the tables and answer back. Only serious desperation kept me there the few months I stayed. And yeah, I did stand up for myself which was why I was perpetually on mgt. shit list. It was a long time ago, before sexual harassment was even thought of as that.

 

[ZiprHead]

A friend of mine was almost fired because he had a soft-core porn joke photograph on his business phone that someone, not in the company, sent to him. He made the mistake of showing it to a co-worker who laughed at it, then promptly went behind his back and reported it.

 

[Toni]

I don't actually know how many men saw it but I am certain it was a man who brought it to management attention. At least one guy teased the woman who sent it around r a bit about how sexist it was. The calendar was also humorous and while I thought it was funny I didn't think it was appropriate for our particular workplace.

It's not unbelievable that the guy didn't feel demeaned or undervalued about the issue. Maybe he saw that women would be potentially allowed to have sexualized pictures of men, while men were not allowed to do the same with sexualized pictures of women. More of an opposition to double standards that aren't beneficial from his point of view.

That could well be. I don't know who raised the objection, actually. How well your speculation fits would depend on who actually went to management. A couple of the guys would never have said anything, one because he is so shy and introverted and the other because he would have found it as funny and would have relished the opportunity to call the women sexist. Another would have said something to avoid someone making a big stink so it would be handled quietly. Another, who is actually a pretty horrid sexist pig (who is on his best behavior most of the time) would have gone to management exactly because it wasn't fair and because it wasn't beneficial to his own point of view, which is the only thing that matters to him: how well HE and HIS interests are served.

FWIW, a while back in my work unit, there was a new hire who was fresh out of college, extremely good looking--pin up/movie star worthy, actually. He was also smart, funny, even more charming than he was good looking and extremely competent at the job. Definitely straight. Women from all over the building made excuses to walk past our work unit for a while until they got used to him. Now, he's young enough to be my kid and I don't actually know how I would have behaved if he didn't land squarely in the 'kid zone.' Maybe I would have been a drooling puddle of jello. I liked him, sure. He was funny, smart, able to dish out and be on the receiving end of a lot of workplace humor/bullshit. If he hadn't had the same kind of personality: funny, smart, self deprecating but able to dish out as good as he got--I think all of the guys would have hated him, but they didn't. I think they were almost as in love with him as the women. And yeah, I think some of the attention he got really did cross over the line into harassment.

But I did feel a bit sorry for him that his looks were so often the focus of the attention rather than his competence and intelligence and the fact that he was genuinely a really nice guy, even as he sometimes put on the hound dog persona. I don't know how much of his charm and humor was natural to him--he told us a lot of stories of growing up with his brothers (all also very good looking) and the trouble they got into and their mother always riding herd over her wild beasts so a lot of it sounded like family humor--or how much of it was a coping mechanism to deal with the attention. Because how bad can it be, to be that good looking, right? Like I said, I kind of felt sorry for him.

Anyway, after several years, he changed careers and is now in a different line of work which seems to make him happy.

 

[Toni]

Are wearing a possibly offensive shirt and sexually harassing someone even in the same category?

Apparently so, if it is a shirt full of cartoon women.

Now let us all join hands and walk on the egg shells in unison.

It's in the same category but at different ends of the spectrum. That particular shirt was ill chosen but certainly not even close to what I've seen at say, the neighborhood grocery store (on customers, not on staff.)

 

[laughing dog]

Are wearing a possibly offensive shirt and sexually harassing someone even in the same category?

Apparently so, if it is a shirt full of cartoon women.

It is possible if the shirt is worn to harass someone or if the sexual harassment is low level.

Now let us all join hands and walk on the egg shells in unison.

Given your apparent hypersensitivity to these types of issues, I would expect you are an expert on eggshell walking.

 

[bigfield]

Now I'm curious.

Why in your opinion was it not appropriate for your particular workplace.

And if it wasn'r appropriate for your particular workplace, then what workplaces would it be appropriate for?

It wasn't appropriate for my workplace because of the type of work we do and because of the workplace culture and a host of similar reasons. Inclusion, the highest ethical standards, all of that are very core and even the appearance of anything else would be very much against the core values. My workplace---the whole organization--is very image conscious. My particular work unit is relatively relaxed. Relatively being the operative word. We laugh and joke and poke fun at our own and each other's foibles but not in front of management. And mostly our own foibles.

I've worked in other types of work, where harassment was common place and was always one directional: men harassing women, who were expected to take it and not speak up or, heaven forbid, turn the tables and answer back. Only serious desperation kept me there the few months I stayed. And yeah, I did stand up for myself which was why I was perpetually on mgt. shit list. It was a long time ago, before sexual harassment was even thought of as that.

Can you think of a workplace culture where the calendar might be considered acceptable, or at least tolerable? You have stated that your work unit was relatively relaxed--is your unit relaxed enough that no-one in your team would take offence at a sexy calendar, poster, or t-shirt?

That could well be. I don't know who raised the objection, actually. How well your speculation fits would depend on who actually went to management. A couple of the guys would never have said anything, one because he is so shy and introverted and the other because he would have found it as funny and would have relished the opportunity to call the women sexist. Another would have said something to avoid someone making a big stink so it would be handled quietly. Another, who is actually a pretty horrid sexist pig (who is on his best behavior most of the time) would have gone to management exactly because it wasn't fair and because it wasn't beneficial to his own point of view, which is the only thing that matters to him: how well HE and HIS interests are served.

I find it interesting that not one of the men on your team could see the calendar and not care about it. That does not strike me as a relaxed group of people.

 

[Toni]

It wasn't appropriate for my workplace because of the type of work we do and because of the workplace culture and a host of similar reasons. Inclusion, the highest ethical standards, all of that are very core and even the appearance of anything else would be very much against the core values. My workplace---the whole organization--is very image conscious. My particular work unit is relatively relaxed. Relatively being the operative word. We laugh and joke and poke fun at our own and each other's foibles but not in front of management. And mostly our own foibles.

I've worked in other types of work, where harassment was common place and was always one directional: men harassing women, who were expected to take it and not speak up or, heaven forbid, turn the tables and answer back. Only serious desperation kept me there the few months I stayed. And yeah, I did stand up for myself which was why I was perpetually on mgt. shit list. It was a long time ago, before sexual harassment was even thought of as that.

Can you think of a workplace culture where the calendar might be considered acceptable, or at least tolerable? You have stated that your work unit was relatively relaxed--is your unit relaxed enough that no-one in your team would take offence at a sexy calendar, poster, or t-shirt?

That could well be. I don't know who raised the objection, actually. How well your speculation fits would depend on who actually went to management. A couple of the guys would never have said anything, one because he is so shy and introverted and the other because he would have found it as funny and would have relished the opportunity to call the women sexist. Another would have said something to avoid someone making a big stink so it would be handled quietly. Another, who is actually a pretty horrid sexist pig (who is on his best behavior most of the time) would have gone to management exactly because it wasn't fair and because it wasn't beneficial to his own point of view, which is the only thing that matters to him: how well HE and HIS interests are served.

I find it interesting that not one of the men on your team could see the calendar and not care about it. That does not strike me as a relaxed group of people.

My work unit within a very large organization is relatively relaxed. Relatively being the operative word.

I don't actually know who turned in the calendar so it's speculation on my part. The only woman likely to do that actually sent the calendar around and I know she didn't turn herself in. I don't know that any of the guys cared or didn't care-- it's just speculation ony part based on working with this group for more than 10 years. It could be there were no personal objections but because of company policy. Yeah, we have a couple of hall monitor types.