Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

I'm the monster. I'm the bigot.

No more of this bullshit.

Welcome to the shitshow.

In my experience, calls for reasonable solutions that allow actual women the privacy and safety we desire while ALSO making accommodations for transwomen will be rejected in their entirety, and you'll be called names for it. The only acceptable solution is the complete capitulation of female women to the wants and desires of males, even if doing so introduces risks we already face at significantly disproportionate rates.

I started out simply wanting the right to evict pre-op males who identify as trans from showers and changing rooms. After years of this discussion, I've come to realize that there is no possible solution that will be accepted by transwomen other than real women completely surrendering everything - including our language - to them.

It's the most blatant act of appropriation and colonization I've ever run across.

Nonsense. What trans people want is to stop being TARGETED and painted as perverts. The LAWS should be to make all businesses that provide "showering/changing" facilities, provide PRIVACY for those that prefer it. If ADA laws can be put into place, then so can privacy laws.

Note that ADA only applies to new construction or major renovation. And even then things get problematic--look at the practice of not surfacing the whole street so as to avoid having to make the curb cuts for wheelchairs. All too often compliance is too expensive and it ends up being nobody gets it.

The ADA was a good idea with a critical if-by-whiskey flaw in it: "reasonable". The politicians left it to be eternally fought in the courts.

The reality is the privacy you desire is expensive, why should everybody be mandated to provide it?

The reality is that the sense of security you enjoy is a privilege enjoyed by cis males and women are paying for it every second of their lives.

But so long as you are not being cornered somewhere and no one is grabbing your junk, it’s all just fine with you

 

[Emily Lake]

2) You're missing the sampling problem. Yes, there are more women that have experienced sexual assault than there are transgendered--but that's not the relevant comparison. The question is whether the penis they just saw belongs to a rapist or a transgendered person--and the odds are extremely high that it's a transgendered person. And if it's a rapist the place is so empty the "women" sign provided no protection anyway. You are gaining an illusion of safety.

How are we supposed to tell?

Or do you just think we should wait until AFTER we get raped, and then say "oh, well that male in women's clothing with lipstick on must not have been a real transwoman, because they raped me."

Are you aware that the rate of sexual offending by self-declared transwomen is higher than the rate for other males?

ETA - that's not to suggest that all transwomen are sexual offenders. Rather, all transwomen are males... and because it's all self-declaration, it becomes a massive magnet for sex offenders to claim a transgender identity because it gains them access to women they would otherwise not be able to get close to. The number of already incarcerated violent men who suddenly discover they've always been women and just hadn't realize it, who then get transferred to a women's prison - that's something those states should be well and truly ashamed of.

 

[Emily Lake]

The existence of communal facilities is because they are cheaper. Privacy is a luxury that simply didn't exist for the average person in the past. You don't have to go all that far back to find the average child was in the room at the conception of their younger siblings.

In the more immediate past, indoor plumbing was nonexistent. When it became available, it was a luxury

Your point seems to be that the safety and well being of women is not worth funding.

Further, your point seems to be that if it is t a problem for Loren, it isn’t a problem. Such self absorption is unbecoming past age 9.

Misogyny is a deep character flaw. You should try to address it.

You're skipping over the step of showing that it's a safety issue. You're just taking it on faith.

[expletive deleted] I'm not taking it on faith, I'm taking it on having TWICE had someone try to rape me, and on having had my private parts grabbed in crowded public spaces often enough that I stopped fucking counting! I'm taking it on the three times I've had a complete stranger expose their dicks to me, and the several times that men in the dorm snuck into the female bathroom to try to get a peek at the girls who were in there!

It's a real fucking safety issue for women. But you seem to care more about males with identity issues feeling accepted and validated than you do about the actual safety and privacy of any women.

 

[Emily Lake]

Our local YMCA while having a communal shower room also has individual shower stalls with a small changing area.

Yes, I know that many facilities offer private showers and changing areas and have done for many years. People have many reasons for preferring privacy.

I was not being original any of the times I suggested this. And I knew it.

Yeah, I think one of the first contributions I made to threads like this almost a decade ago was saying something similar, and I know I wasn't the first to suggest it either.

This guidance is so old we might as well call it "conservative" at this point, and yet it still has never been seriously pushed because we ALL know that those inconvenienced by pennies on the profit dollar will scream bloody murder over it.

Let's also not gloss over the fact that even when separate unisex facilities are available... transwomen refuse to use them, and insist that the only acceptable solution is for them to have complete and unfettered access to female single-sex facilities.

As has been pointed out the use of such facilities might out them. And in some situations that might get them killed.

LETTING ANY MAN WHO SAYS MAGIC WORDS INTO WOMEN'S BATHROOMS, SHOWERS, CHANGING ROOMS, AND PRISON CELLS HAS ALREADY GOTTEN WOMEN AND GIRLS RAPED

 

[Emily Lake]

Unfortunately, there are those who absolutely do wish to target trans people.

Horrendously, there are some very few individuals with nefarious motives who want access to women’s facilities first the purposes of predation. This is pretty rare and it makes it much more difficult to reach consensus that protects everyone from the criminal intentions of a small number of people.

Yes, both groups exist.

Note that the second group should be divided into those who enter in disguise vs those who do so openly. What's the usual scenario? Rest stop or the like, isolated, predator is hiding outside, waiting for a victim to show up. Will laws about trans have any effect on these? No. The only relevant ones are those entering in disguise.

We can't tell the difference.

Real world news reports, we see repeated examples of the former. The anti-trans crowd struggles to come up with any evidence for the latter. It's very clear which side is victimized more. That says to me the laws are too restrictive. I care an awful lot more about those who are harmed rather than those simply distressed.

You seem to care an awful lot about the distress of males with transgender identities who will be unhappy having to pee and shower among all the other males than you do about the harm done to women.

 

[Jarhyn]

Special reminder, here: That claimed without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

Here, the evidence requires more than one or two anecdotes too... Because I am pretty sure we can fill a fair few pages with the names of all the trans people murdered, assaulted and raped over not allowing them access.

 

[Emily Lake]

Women Are Human

Independent source for the top stories in worldwide gender identity news

www.womenarehuman.com

Not Our Crimes | Trans-Identified Male Prison Population Data

Documenting the realities of men who commit crimes and claim womanhood.

notourcrimes.info

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

terfisaslur.com

And let's not gloss over the fact that voyeurism and exhibitionism are ALSO sex crimes, and that the perpetrators are disproportionately males of the human species, and their victims are disproportionately females of the human species.

 

[Emily Lake]

Because I am pretty sure we can fill a fair few pages with the names of all the trans people murdered, assaulted and raped over not allowing them access.

Go for it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The existence of communal facilities is because they are cheaper. Privacy is a luxury that simply didn't exist for the average person in the past. You don't have to go all that far back to find the average child was in the room at the conception of their younger siblings.

In the more immediate past, indoor plumbing was nonexistent. When it became available, it was a luxury

Your point seems to be that the safety and well being of women is not worth funding.

Further, your point seems to be that if it is t a problem for Loren, it isn’t a problem. Such self absorption is unbecoming past age 9.

Misogyny is a deep character flaw. You should try to address it.

You're skipping over the step of showing that it's a safety issue. You're just taking it on faith.

No I’m not. That’s just a cheap shot you take when you cannot refute what the I wrote with anything like reasoning.

I am absolutely considering the perceptions and feelings and experiences of all girls and women, trans or not.

You feel afraid.

But the number of rapes by men disguised as women to gain access is very close to zero. At one point the score clearly stood at -1 (one rape of a trans person, no rapes by trans), the anti-trans crowd has so flooded the world with bad data that I can not be sure this still stands.

The number of trans who are seriously harmed is considerably greater.

You are reacting to the wrong threat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Teaching your children mindless fear doesn't help them.

Holy fuck, I don't even have words for the seeming misogyny in this post.

Female women are 95% of the victims of sexual violence, including rape. Males are 90% of the perpetrators. But apparently teaching girls to be aware of and chary of unknown males in spaces where they'll be naked or vulnerable is "mindless fear".

So I should be free to exclude blacks because the violent crime statistics clearly show they are a bigger threat??

As I said, "mindless". You realize most sexual wrongs are not by unknown males? The main risk is letting one's guard down around known males. And the unknown male is generally only a threat in an isolated situation. You should be cautious in an isolated situation.

I’ve had my breasts and my crotch grabbed in front of others multiple times. Sometimes when there was a small attempt to hide what was going on. Most often not. Being groped ( a form of sexual assault) by strangers or by acquaintances is not uncommon in public transportation, elevators, bars, restaurants, parties or at workplaces. Penetration also can occur and yep, people have been raped in public venues and dressing rooms

It is not rare, Loren. Not at all,

Is being afraid of men going to change this one bit?

What's important is what a person can change.

 

[Toni]

Special reminder, here: That claimed without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

Here, the evidence requires more than one or two anecdotes too... Because I am pretty sure we can fill a fair few pages with the names of all the trans people murdered, assaulted and raped over not allowing them access.

No one here wants any violence or anything but equality for trans people.

Unfortunately a lot of people do not want equality for women. It’s just couched as ‘too expensive’ to ensure that all girls and women, including trans girls and women can feel safe and secure in women only spaces.

Nobody ever thinks about the cost of the trauma girls and women face every day wondering if they can trust this or that male or if they will be blamed if they are assaulted.

This is an imperfect analogy but please bear with me: I think most of us are aware that parents of kids of color, especially boys, have a particular talk with them about being safe in public, especially around law enforcement.

Can you imagine the amount of fear and anger that these parents must swallow to try to appear calm as they talk to their children about attempting to avoid racist attacks?

It’s the same for mothers of daughters. Only it’s about all boys and men. I will never, ever, ever forget the look of anger and betrayal in my daughter’s eyes or voice as she pointed out I didn’t warn her brothers the same way

No. I did not.

And I still burn with shame that I am not able to make the world a safe place for my daughter. You cannot imagine what it was like for me to have to warn my daughter.

Or about the first time she told me about a friend grabbing her away from taking a walk with a guy she didn’t know while at a friend’s graduation party. And the realization that indeed, that was not a safe thing to do. Neither of us were happy that I was right to warn her.

No: this is not about trans people being safe but I’ll bet they have the exact same concerns —and their parents do as well.

ALL people should be safe from sexual assault! ALL PEOPLE.

And to the extent possible, we should ensure enough privacy to protect people’s modesty and to avoid re-traumatizing them.

ALL people.

 

[Toni]

The existence of communal facilities is because they are cheaper. Privacy is a luxury that simply didn't exist for the average person in the past. You don't have to go all that far back to find the average child was in the room at the conception of their younger siblings.

In the more immediate past, indoor plumbing was nonexistent. When it became available, it was a luxury

Your point seems to be that the safety and well being of women is not worth funding.

Further, your point seems to be that if it is t a problem for Loren, it isn’t a problem. Such self absorption is unbecoming past age 9.

Misogyny is a deep character flaw. You should try to address it.

You're skipping over the step of showing that it's a safety issue. You're just taking it on faith.

No I’m not. That’s just a cheap shot you take when you cannot refute what the I wrote with anything like reasoning.

I am absolutely considering the perceptions and feelings and experiences of all girls and women, trans or not.

You feel afraid.

But the number of rapes by men disguised as women to gain access is very close to zero. At one point the score clearly stood at -1 (one rape of a trans person, no rapes by trans), the anti-trans crowd has so flooded the world with bad data that I can not be sure this still stands.

The number of trans who are seriously harmed is considerably greater.

You are reacting to the wrong threat.

No you are not getting it and at this point, it’s willful.

You want me to be afraid because the fact that I am angry and am insisting on the right to privacy and safety for all women scares the fuck out of YOU.

I’m not scared. I’m angry.


There is no way for anyone to know that the stranger with an exposed penis next to them in a women only space is trans. None. Zero. Trusting the wrong person is what leads to a lot of girls/women being assaulted. Cis or trans. It should not be a worry.

FFS, why cannot girls and women have one single space where they can feel secure?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm the monster. I'm the bigot.

No more of this bullshit.

Welcome to the shitshow.

In my experience, calls for reasonable solutions that allow actual women the privacy and safety we desire while ALSO making accommodations for transwomen will be rejected in their entirety, and you'll be called names for it. The only acceptable solution is the complete capitulation of female women to the wants and desires of males, even if doing so introduces risks we already face at significantly disproportionate rates.

I started out simply wanting the right to evict pre-op males who identify as trans from showers and changing rooms. After years of this discussion, I've come to realize that there is no possible solution that will be accepted by transwomen other than real women completely surrendering everything - including our language - to them.

It's the most blatant act of appropriation and colonization I've ever run across.

Nonsense. What trans people want is to stop being TARGETED and painted as perverts. The LAWS should be to make all businesses that provide "showering/changing" facilities, provide PRIVACY for those that prefer it. If ADA laws can be put into place, then so can privacy laws.

Note that ADA only applies to new construction or major renovation. And even then things get problematic--look at the practice of not surfacing the whole street so as to avoid having to make the curb cuts for wheelchairs. All too often compliance is too expensive and it ends up being nobody gets it.

The ADA was a good idea with a critical if-by-whiskey flaw in it: "reasonable". The politicians left it to be eternally fought in the courts.

The reality is the privacy you desire is expensive, why should everybody be mandated to provide it?

The reality is that the sense of security you enjoy is a privilege enjoyed by cis males and women are paying for it every second of their lives.

But so long as you are not being cornered somewhere and no one is grabbing your junk, it’s all just fine with you

The problem here is you are demanding huge outlays for something that grants almost zero safety. The question is not what the risk of improper male actions is, but what risk can you change. And what does it cost to get that change?

You keep focusing on the total risk, but whatever is done in bathrooms addresses at most the tiniest sliver of that risk.

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately, there are those who absolutely do wish to target trans people.

Horrendously, there are some very few individuals with nefarious motives who want access to women’s facilities first the purposes of predation. This is pretty rare and it makes it much more difficult to reach consensus that protects everyone from the criminal intentions of a small number of people.

Yes, both groups exist.

Note that the second group should be divided into those who enter in disguise vs those who do so openly. What's the usual scenario? Rest stop or the like, isolated, predator is hiding outside, waiting for a victim to show up. Will laws about trans have any effect on these? No. The only relevant ones are those entering in disguise.

Real world news reports, we see repeated examples of the former. The anti-trans crowd struggles to come up with any evidence for the latter. It's very clear which side is victimized more. That says to me the laws are too restrictive. I care an awful lot more about those who are harmed rather than those simply distressed.

You are too big an asshole to recognize that the fear and vigilance and the loss of any safe space is a genuine harm to people you don’t care about: those without a penis.

Note to Loren: you can have a dick without being a dick.

 

[Politesse]

Teaching your children mindless fear doesn't help them.

Holy fuck, I don't even have words for the seeming misogyny in this post.

Female women are 95% of the victims of sexual violence, including rape. Males are 90% of the perpetrators. But apparently teaching girls to be aware of and chary of unknown males in spaces where they'll be naked or vulnerable is "mindless fear".

So I should be free to exclude blacks because the violent crime statistics clearly show they are a bigger threat??

As I said, "mindless". You realize most sexual wrongs are not by unknown males? The main risk is letting one's guard down around known males. And the unknown male is generally only a threat in an isolated situation. You should be cautious in an isolated situation.

I’ve had my breasts and my crotch grabbed in front of others multiple times. Sometimes when there was a small attempt to hide what was going on. Most often not. Being groped ( a form of sexual assault) by strangers or by acquaintances is not uncommon in public transportation, elevators, bars, restaurants, parties or at workplaces. Penetration also can occur and yep, people have been raped in public venues and dressing rooms

It is not rare, Loren. Not at all,

What do you think happens to trans women in men's bathrooms?

 

[Toni]

Teaching your children mindless fear doesn't help them.

Holy fuck, I don't even have words for the seeming misogyny in this post.

Female women are 95% of the victims of sexual violence, including rape. Males are 90% of the perpetrators. But apparently teaching girls to be aware of and chary of unknown males in spaces where they'll be naked or vulnerable is "mindless fear".

So I should be free to exclude blacks because the violent crime statistics clearly show they are a bigger threat??

As I said, "mindless". You realize most sexual wrongs are not by unknown males? The main risk is letting one's guard down around known males. And the unknown male is generally only a threat in an isolated situation. You should be cautious in an isolated situation.

I’ve had my breasts and my crotch grabbed in front of others multiple times. Sometimes when there was a small attempt to hide what was going on. Most often not. Being groped ( a form of sexual assault) by strangers or by acquaintances is not uncommon in public transportation, elevators, bars, restaurants, parties or at workplaces. Penetration also can occur and yep, people have been raped in public venues and dressing rooms

It is not rare, Loren. Not at all,

What do you think happens to trans women in men's bathrooms?

When did I say that trans women should not be allowed in women’s spaces?

And while no, I did not specify in every single post that I included trans women and girls as women and girls, I have specifically mentioned them as being included in more than 1 post.

I don’t want anyone re-traumatized. I imagine being screamed at or attacked by another patron would be pretty traumatic. Possibly dangerous. Why would I want that? For anyone?

Privacy can best be obtained in individual showers with doors.

Which is what I have repeatedly been told is ‘too expensive.’


Before anyone else jumps in and asks about people pretending to be trans—private showers could prevent that by giving women and girls a possible clue to someone with nefarious intentions.

Privacy in stalks would also be beneficial for those who have scars or other physical differences that they feel uncomfortable displaying in front of others. Loren: this is for you: People are allowed to have feelings and to be less comforts or about exposing themselves to strangers than you are. Deal with it instead of expecting everyone to share whatever beliefs you have atm.

I wish I could make the world safe from sexual assault for everyone. I can’t. But I can and do advocate for private stalls.

And before anyone reminds us of the individual who may or may not have genuinely been trans and who attacked female students in the girls’ bathroom at two separate schools while claiming to be trans: obviously a sick individual whose claims may have been true or may not have been. Maybe there should be some kind os disclosure or screening process that also respects the individual’s right to privacy but honestly I don’t know how that would look or work. Schools are staffed by human beings as flawed as the rest of us and that goes double for school boards. I don’t know the best practice here but I’m sure someone will find a workaround to get access to victims or to make some sick point.


I know that boys and men sometimes attack other boys and men, that girls and women can attack other girls and women.

I wish I could make a suggestion that would stop that shit.

BTW, do you men realize that avoiding pervs is one reason girls and women go to bathrooms and showers together? They don’t just buddy up at parties and bars. And no, it is n’t always a conscious choice, we females are that indoctrinated to always be on the lookout for danger.

Individual stalls seem like the best solution even though Loren may choke to death clutching his pearls so tightly at the expense and yes, even though a private stalls can and probably sometimes do provide privacy for sex. Consensual and non-consensual.

It’s not a perfect solution.

I also strongly advocate for comprehensive, age appropriate sex education for all, education about good touch/bad touch, respect for yourself and others, bodily autonomy, not forcing children to give or accept hugs or kisses or tickles, and much more accessible mental health care for all and much better law enforcement when ANYONE is attacked.

Sorry if I missed anything or any one.

FWIW, I actually have no problem with nudity, mine or someone else’s. I recognize when it may or may not be appropriate and that inappropriate nudity in some spaces may be a serious danger sign. I have no problem physically defending myself or someone else if they are attacked. I’ve done both before and I will do it again.

 

[Politesse]

The problem is that very few businesses are actually doing that, and there is no political movement to force them to do so. What there is, is an epidemic of hate and violence targeting the most vulnerable of minorities.

 

[Toni]

The problem is that very few businesses are actually doing that, and there is no political movement to force them to do so. What there is, is an epidemic of hate and violence targeting the most vulnerable of minorities.

I can’t fix that. I’m advocating for that. There seems no end to money available for sports facilities at taxpayer expense or golden ballrooms and tacky decor. Stalls seem like a better use of public funds.

Individual or group safety against sexual violence should not depend on people being willing to install individual stalls in bathrooms but that seems more likely and less expensive than convincing others to live and let live and hands and other body parts to yourself.

I have a lot of sympathy because women and girls are also traditional targets for hate and violence. Trans/cis.

So are people of color, religious and ethic minorities, disabled people.

I don’t even try to imagine a hierarchy of hate and violence against groups. It’s all evil stuff. I know I’m more attuned to women’s issues because I’m female. I’m more attuned to hate against groups when I know individuals belonging to those groups. Which I think is common and speaks to the desirability and necessity of us all being open and attempting to know more people whose outsides appear different than our own.

 

[Politesse]

I don’t even try to imagine a hierarchy of hate and violence against groups. It’s all evil stuff. I know I’m more attuned to women’s issues because I’m female. I’m more attuned to hate against groups when I know individuals belonging to those groups.

Which is exactly what makes being a trans woman so uniquely dangerous. They are very few in number, so cis women don't see trans women's issues as their issues, even though the exact same men prey on all women. They are on the receiving end of all of society's hatred for women, without any guarantee of female solidarity to create any sense of community or safety.

 

[Toni]

I don’t even try to imagine a hierarchy of hate and violence against groups. It’s all evil stuff. I know I’m more attuned to women’s issues because I’m female. I’m more attuned to hate against groups when I know individuals belonging to those groups.

Which is exactly what makes being a trans woman so uniquely dangerous. They are very few in number, so cis women don't see trans women's issues as their issues, even though the exact same men prey on all women. They are on the receiving end of all of society's hatred for women, without any guarantee of female solidarity to create any sense of community or safety.

Yes, we do.

I do not know a single woman who does not abhor sexual violence. Against anyone.

Yes, for many of us, it’s not a specific issue we’ve thought of anymore than most of us think much about a member of a group we have no experience with and haven’t really heard of.

Yes, there are those who deny that there is such a thing as transsexual. 35 years ago, more or less, it seemed strange to me, too. It was rarely heard of. But two things happened: my spouse had a colleague who came out as trans and a family moved into my neighborhood and the kids became friends with my kids Abd I volunteered with a school program with one of the children who, despite physically appearing female, insisted quite emphatically that she was male.

I knew immediately that this very intelligent, very imaginative, very creative person who was five years old when I met them was not pretending or confused or lying.

No I did not discuss this with their parents who were, imo despicable for unrelated reasons. I did t talk about it with anyone at the time because I sure didn’t know who was safe. I just accepted this child and tried hard to work around the mother so that I could continue including them in the group I worked with ( the kids adored them) and in my family —friend of my youngest. Later they moved to the Catholic school system and the friendship lapsed. The kids weren’t particularly close and as I said, for reasons unrelated, the parents were very problematic. I was glad not to have to deal with the mom. She was a nightmare. But a friend of another of my kids, who attended the same Catholic school kept me up to date enough that I knew the kid I worked with moved away as a young adult and transitioned. I hope they are very happy.

So yes, that changed my mind from not ever actually hearing of such a thing, aside from drag shows, and the occasional comedy with cross dressing. I confess that I’m still not a fan of drag shows because it is hard for me not to feel they are a bit like minstrel shows in black face. But that’s a me thing, not a broad societal judgement and I’m very live and let live. I should mention that I’ve never been particularly girly and that has sometimes been used against me by members of my family but that has always been a them thing imo. I didn’t give a shit then and don’t now but they’ve all outgrown that. And nobody tries to mage me wear pink or act like a lady anymore. The exaggerated makeup and costuming is just in drag shows is just icky to me and whoever wears that stuff seems to be embracing what I depose about societal expectations of women. But that’s a me thing. Some people like cilantro. Some people taste soap. I’m in neither camp but have learned to like it at least tolerate it

But there has never been a time in my life that I can remember when I did not believe that everybody was worthy and worthy of being protected Abd being who they are—so long as that dues not involve harming others. This is particularly true of sexual violence once I knew that such a thing existed. ( fifth grade: To Kill A Mockingbird)

I can’t think of a better solution than stalls with doors and if society isn’t willing to invest some dollars to protect everyone’s privacy that seems like more of a problem to me. Women’s needs have never mattered much. Well, sexual violence is a much worse problem as is bigotry. I’m all for trying to eliminate that. I do my best to advocate for the demise of bigotry and violence. I have a temper and have had to physically defend myself but at heart, I’m a pacifist and I really do try to be a better one.