Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

There is a difference between watching kids play at a pool and staring at kids in a pool. Or staring at a particular adult orany sex or gender or orientation. I know that you know there is a difference and that sometimes staring at an individual rather than just observing them can be indicative of sexual interest.

The reason that I think that staring intently at a person can be indicative of sexual intent, welcome or welcome is that has been my experience.

Someone who’s loos at me or my kid make me uncomfortable to me mean potential danger.

This is not about gay/straight/trans/cis. It’s about some people being creepy. Of any sex, gender, orientation ration, proclivity.

Insisting that someone must tolerate without responding to someone staring at them is in fact an early step of grooming. Being told that something that makes you uncomfortable, that it’s perfectly normal and natural is a step in grooming, whether it is sexual grooming or grooming to engage in racist or anti-LGBTQIA behavior or against a member of a religious group, etc.

Staring can be used to indicate disapproval.

Staring is often used to intentionally make people feel uncomfortable.

Parents can and do send kids to swimming lessons and the kids do use showers without their parents present.

Yeah, creeps exist. Nobody's saying that creeps should be tolerated. We are saying that you are falsely describing anyone with a penis as a creep.

Nobody is describing anyone with a penis as a creep.

I’m saying very rationally fir probably the 100th time in this thread that women a women’s locker room have NO WAY of telling if the person with the exposed penis is a creep or a trans person IN THAT MOMENT Abd they are likely to rec r reflexively.

Same logic as the hajib and bursa. A can't behave so B must avoid triggering them.

You mean burqa?

Doors, Loren. That’s what I’m suggesting. Doors.

Not banning trans women from anything.

You aren’t willing to pay for doors. You certainly aren’t willing to address the root problem which is male violence especially male sexual violence.

You don’t believe women who allege misconduct on the part of men.

You think women just have to shut up and take whatever Brads like you say we have to And if we don’t, you’ll just call us names.

You’re a misogynist.

 

[TomC]

You aren’t willing to pay for doors. You certainly aren’t willing to address the root problem which is male violence especially male sexual violence.

I haven't seen any public restrooms without doors on the stalls since a couple of frat houses in college.
But yeah, the fundamental problem is badly socialized males and no way to distinguish them from decent guys.
Tom

 

[thebeave]

You aren’t willing to pay for doors. You certainly aren’t willing to address the root problem which is male violence especially male sexual violence.

I haven't seen any public restrooms without doors on the stalls since a couple of frat houses in college.
But yeah, the fundamental problem is badly socialized males and no way to distinguish them from decent guys.
Tom

Me either. I think Toni's referring to stalls with doors separating individual shower heads in locker rooms. A lot of gyms currently have one giant shower area with multiple shower heads and no visual barriers in between. It would seem each stall would also need a separate vestibule as well for changing clothes. Currently, people leave their workout clothes at the locker, walk naked to the shower, then walk back to their locker naked to get dressed into their street clothes. So, I guess the rules for everyone would have to change so that people do all their dressing and undressing in the shower vestibule. A bit more cumbersome and confining, but I guess it would work. If i was a woman, I think I would still be a little concerned that the creepy guy showering next to me is going to peek/point a camera over the top of the stall.

 

[Toni]

You aren’t willing to pay for doors. You certainly aren’t willing to address the root problem which is male violence especially male sexual violence.

I haven't seen any public restrooms without doors on the stalls since a couple of frat houses in college.
But yeah, the fundamental problem is badly socialized males and no way to distinguish them from decent guys.
Tom

Me either. I think Toni's referring to doors separating individual shower heads in locker rooms. A lot of gyms currently have one giant shower area with multiple shower heads and no visual barriers in between. It would seem each stall would also need a separate vestibule as well for changing clothes. Currently, people leave their workout clothes at the locker, walk naked to the shower, then walk back to their locker naked to get dressed into their street clothes. So, I guess the rules for everyone would have to change so that people do all their dressing and undressing in the shower vestibule. A bit more cumbersome and confining, but I guess it would work. If i was a woman, I think I would still be a little concerned that the creepy guy showering next to me is going to peek/point a camera over the top of the stall.

Yes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm looking at what's going to happen--doesn't mean I support what's going to happen, just that I'm willing to consider scenarios with no good outcome. People will not want to pay the costs associated with retrofitting doors into changing rooms etc.

You are looking at this in isolation, I'm looking at it as part of the attempt to make it impossible to be trans. It's an impractical evasion to "answer" the question of where should they go after the trans-hunters got caught not being able to answer that question.

You’re trying to make it impossible to be a woman, period.

All I’m asking for is doors.

You’re the one whining about too much money I guess you are not the supporter of trans women you like to claim to be.

You're not understanding. I'm saying people won't agree with spending the money your doors answer entails.

And it's not making it impossible to be a woman. You're objecting to the status quo--which doesn't seem to be causing any big problems.

If getting an F ID is the magic pass why do the news stories always be like this one:

Fruitland Park church employee arrested on video voyeurism charges after hidden-camera videos found, deputies say

A Lake County man was arrested on video voyeurism charges after investigators say hidden-camera videos and images were found on a work computer and a cloud drive.

www.clickorlando.com

Hidden cam, not F ID.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You aren’t willing to pay for doors. You certainly aren’t willing to address the root problem which is male violence especially male sexual violence.

I haven't seen any public restrooms without doors on the stalls since a couple of frat houses in college.
But yeah, the fundamental problem is badly socialized males and no way to distinguish them from decent guys.
Tom

Me either. I think Toni's referring to stalls with doors separating individual shower heads in locker rooms. A lot of gyms currently have one giant shower area with multiple shower heads and no visual barriers in between. It would seem each stall would also need a separate vestibule as well for changing clothes. Currently, people leave their workout clothes at the locker, walk naked to the shower, then walk back to their locker naked to get dressed into their street clothes. So, I guess the rules for everyone would have to change so that people do all their dressing and undressing in the shower vestibule. A bit more cumbersome and confining, but I guess it would work. If i was a woman, I think I would still be a little concerned that the creepy guy showering next to me is going to peek/point a camera over the top of the stall.

It would require much bigger shower spaces. Which is the cost I'm pointing to.

And note that it provides zero protection from a predator walking in. A predator is safer in such a setup than in the current situation.

 

[Toni]

I'm looking at what's going to happen--doesn't mean I support what's going to happen, just that I'm willing to consider scenarios with no good outcome. People will not want to pay the costs associated with retrofitting doors into changing rooms etc.

You are looking at this in isolation, I'm looking at it as part of the attempt to make it impossible to be trans. It's an impractical evasion to "answer" the question of where should they go after the trans-hunters got caught not being able to answer that question.

You’re trying to make it impossible to be a woman, period.

All I’m asking for is doors.

You’re the one whining about too much money I guess you are not the supporter of trans women you like to claim to be.

You're not understanding. I'm saying people won't agree with spending the money your doors answer entails.

And it's not making it impossible to be a woman. You're objecting to the status quo--which doesn't seem to be causing any big problems.

If getting an F ID is the magic pass why do the news stories always be like this one:

Fruitland Park church employee arrested on video voyeurism charges after hidden-camera videos found, deputies say

A Lake County man was arrested on video voyeurism charges after investigators say hidden-camera videos and images were found on a work computer and a cloud drive.

www.clickorlando.com

Hidden cam, not F ID.

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm looking at what's going to happen--doesn't mean I support what's going to happen, just that I'm willing to consider scenarios with no good outcome. People will not want to pay the costs associated with retrofitting doors into changing rooms etc.

You are looking at this in isolation, I'm looking at it as part of the attempt to make it impossible to be trans. It's an impractical evasion to "answer" the question of where should they go after the trans-hunters got caught not being able to answer that question.

You’re trying to make it impossible to be a woman, period.

All I’m asking for is doors.

You’re the one whining about too much money I guess you are not the supporter of trans women you like to claim to be.

You're not understanding. I'm saying people won't agree with spending the money your doors answer entails.

And it's not making it impossible to be a woman. You're objecting to the status quo--which doesn't seem to be causing any big problems.

If getting an F ID is the magic pass why do the news stories always be like this one:

Fruitland Park church employee arrested on video voyeurism charges after hidden-camera videos found, deputies say

A Lake County man was arrested on video voyeurism charges after investigators say hidden-camera videos and images were found on a work computer and a cloud drive.

www.clickorlando.com

Hidden cam, not F ID.

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

 

[Jarhyn]

I'm saying people won't agree with spending the money your doors answer entails

Hence why I keep pointing out that this requires some government spending. If people are offered the money for those doors, they will take the money. If they do not install them after taking the money, they had already agreed to do so, and they have no real excuse to not spend the money.

Those who don't take the money will fall into one of two categories: those who don't take the money because they don't want secure restrooms because the restroom is intended to be nudity tolerant, and those who don't take the money because they want to fail on purpose.

The former can be identified because they will say so openly, and the later can be identified because they will embezzle the money.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

 

[Toni]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

Loren is one of those people who totally lacks empathy. He is unable to imagine anyone feeling differently than he does. I'm not writing this as snark or a dig. It's just a realization that I've come to (over and over and over again) and wasted a lot of time trying to convince him otherwise. I'm only writing this to save you some time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

No. Something is magically going to cause attackers to wait years before exploiting a weakness?? The expected outcome is what we currently see: which is the trans-bashers grasping at straws trying to find a threat. The very fact that they grasp at straws makes it clear they don't have anything solid to point to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

Loren is one of those people who totally lacks empathy. He is unable to imagine anyone feeling differently than he does. I'm not writing this as snark or a dig. It's just a realization that I've come to (over and over and over again) and wasted a lot of time trying to convince him otherwise. I'm only writing this to save you some time.

Look in a mirror. You're asking for empathy to avoid scaring you when the alternative is getting people killed. Some empathy for them??

 

[Toni]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

Loren is one of those people who totally lacks empathy. He is unable to imagine anyone feeling differently than he does. I'm not writing this as snark or a dig. It's just a realization that I've come to (over and over and over again) and wasted a lot of time trying to convince him otherwise. I'm only writing this to save you some time.

Look in a mirror. You're asking for empathy to avoid scaring you when the alternative is getting people killed. Some empathy for them??

Who, exactly, is the threat to transwomen?

It's men, Loren. Particularly men who are too cheap to spring for doors on stalls because they personally like looking at other men's dicks and like to show their dicks off to other men. I'm of course, talking about straight men, here.

Please quit asserting or implying that I am seeking to ban transwomen from women only spaces. I most emphatically am not. It's a cowardly, baseless lie that should not be tolerated on these forums by any poster, much less by a moderator that mere posters are unable to place on ignore to avoid having to read your baseless accusations.

 

[Toni]

I'm pointing out a potential problem and a good solution.

Unfortunately, not everyone with a penis who goes into women only spaces has good motives. Some are sex pests.

People also didn't agree whether slaves should be freed or whether women could vote or any of about a million other things. I see it as a human rights issue. Everyone deserves safety in accommondations --physical and emotional. Doors provide privacy and a sense of security.

You are still doing nothing to address the issue of whether your fear is based on a real threat.

You seem to be conflating "real threat" with "imminent threat".

No. Something is magically going to cause attackers to wait years before exploiting a weakness?? The expected outcome is what we currently see: which is the trans-bashers grasping at straws trying to find a threat. The very fact that they grasp at straws makes it clear they don't have anything solid to point to.

Nobody is bashing trans people Loren.

You refuse to accept the reality that a huge portion of women (and yes, I mean trans women as well as cis women) are victims of sexual assault by men, and that such assaults leave them vulnerable to PTSD and emotional distress when confronted unexpectedly by an exposed penis in a woman's only space.

You lack empathy and apparently reading comprehension. Wait, that's not true. You just scan for some part of a post that you think you have an argument against without actually....reading the post. Or understanding what is written. Or backing up your position with anything other than your assertions.

 

[TomC]

Currently, people leave their workout clothes at the locker, walk naked to the shower, then walk back to their locker naked to get dressed into their street clothes

I don't.
Ever.
I don't have a problem with it, I just have not been to a place with group showers in many years. The reason is simple, they are all utterly optional. It's different from the purposes of restrooms, those are needful. Public showers are not needed. Nobody has to go to a gym, and if you don't like the facilities don't go or go to a different one.
If enough of an establishments clientele want private showers the management will get it.

But lemme ask. If an establishment offered private changing and showering cubicles, for an upcharge, how much are you (or anyone else) willing to pay?
I wouldn't pay anything, but maybe other people will.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Currently, people leave their workout clothes at the locker, walk naked to the shower, then walk back to their locker naked to get dressed into their street clothes

I don't.
Ever.
I don't have a problem with it, I just have not been to a place with group showers in many years. The reason is simple, they are all utterly optional. It's different from the purposes of restrooms, those are needful. Public showers are not needed. Nobody has to go to a gym, and if you don't like the facilities don't go or go to a different one.
If enough of an establishments clientele want private showers the management will get it.

But lemme ask. If an establishment offered private changing and showering cubicles, for an upcharge, how much are you (or anyone else) willing to pay?
I wouldn't pay anything, but maybe other people will.
Tom

One aspect of young life is that not all such experiences are utterly optional: highschool gym shower-rooms, pool/waterpark shower rooms, and the like are ubiquitous experiences for teens and the like and oftentimes the activity is compulsory in some way.

Anything from "have to take SOME gym class" to "can't be on team sports otherwise" to "my social life will fall flat if I don't go to the pool", or the like.

One other issue with this is that oftentimes, the people overseeing the locker rooms are themselves perverts -- for example Jim "Gym" Jordan.

One issue with this, however, is that oftentimes these compulsory settings are settings for some of the worst abuse that happens in locker rooms: everything from the hazing scene in Cary to the very real abuses that I was witness (and occasionally victim) to in highschool, to vicious beatings and as discussed about Gym Jordan, rapes.

 

[thebeave]

Currently, people leave their workout clothes at the locker, walk naked to the shower, then walk back to their locker naked to get dressed into their street clothes

I don't.
Ever.
I don't have a problem with it, I just have not been to a place with group showers in many years. The reason is simple, they are all utterly optional. It's different from the purposes of restrooms, those are needful. Public showers are not needed. Nobody has to go to a gym, and if you don't like the facilities don't go or go to a different one.
If enough of an establishments clientele want private showers the management will get it.

But lemme ask. If an establishment offered private changing and showering cubicles, for an upcharge, how much are you (or anyone else) willing to pay?
I wouldn't pay anything, but maybe other people will.
Tom

Maybe its regional thing, but I can't recall a gym I've been to that wasn't a group shower situation. Though, I've probably only been to a handful in the last 40 years. The last one I went to regularly was exactly the situation I described above. I was never in the habit of showering at a gym myself, so whether it was a group shower or individual stalls was not a concern for me. But others who had to go into the office afterward did so. And, anyway, going to a different gym wasn't really an option for me. It was a specialty climbing gym (with a separate yoga and weight machines area), and there was not another climbing gym anywhere near me.

In junior and senior high school, P.E. was mandatory, as was showering afterwards. They were group showers. I hated it. I think I was the last guy in my class to hit puberty, so it was kind of a miserable experience for me. Come to think of it, the whole thing sounds pretty weird now. Our P.E. teacher occassionally hit the showers naked with us to cool off after a workout on hot day. We didn't think too much of it and nothing untoward happened, but it does have a creepy vibe to it now in 2026.

With regard to your question, I wouldn't pay a separate fee for a shower stall, since I wouldn't use it, but if the cost of adding stalls was folded in to everyone's monthly gym charge and it was reasonable, I would pay if I otherwise really liked that gym.

 

[WAB]

Gym is the new church. Everybody rise up and get to the gym!

I've never been in a gym in my life. If I was forced at gunpoint to attend either a gym or a church, I would choose a church in a heartbeat.

 

[Emily Lake]

And what are the alternatives in your view if transwomen are permitted in those spaces?

Again... for your consideration... what's the problem with stopping to have a deep conversation with a strange man in a dark parking garage when a woman is there all alone? Especially since men are permitted there, right?

The alternative, in my mind, is to NOT permit males of any sort into female intimate spaces. Then we don't have to take the risk at all, and we aren't expected to strike up a get-to-know-you chat with someone who very well might be up to no good.

That is literally non-responsive to my question.

Your question presupposes that women should be expected to have our rights overridden by the desire of some men to be affirmed and validated as something they categorically are not.

The actual alternative in my view is that a whole lot of women will end up being excluded from full participation in society. When the female single-sex space becomes a mixed-sex space, a lot of women will stop using them.

No, my question was a hypothetical. It presupposed nothing of the sort. I expect that sometime in the future (maybe not in my lifetime or your lifetime), transgendered people will be accepted into such spaces because people in society will have adapted (willingly or not) without losing that "full participation" in society

Sure. That will happen when society decides that everything should be mixed sex. Because separating intimate spaces the basis of private thoughts and beliefs is absurd and dumb.

Mixed sex will happen when either 1) men stop committing sexual offenses at rates no higher than female humans or 2) society decides women don’t matter and we become second class citizens.