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Transracial?

Holy shit, you believe that?

herringreedmarriageannouncement.jpg

You read the first paragraph, right?

You also read the Boston Globe articles in which various family members told reporters the stories they'd been told about the family history, right?

So you know the reported reason the marriage of Donald Herring to Pauline Reed came as a surprise to many of their friends is because they eloped, and the reported reason they eloped is because his parents objected to their son marrying someone with NA ancestry, right?

I don't know if you saw my ETA in the previous post, so here it is again:

ETA: I know a guy with an ancestor who came over on the Mayflower and is a distant relative of Daniel Boone. Is he not allowed to tell anyone about the family history because it was so far back?

What about Sally Hemings' descendants who fought for, and won, the right to be buried in the Jefferson family graveyard at Monticello? Too far back to matter to you? It mattered to them.

Yeah, Warren's parents' marriage was such a scandal that it was celebrated in the local paper. People, please.
 
Holy shit, you believe that?

herringreedmarriageannouncement.jpg

You read the first paragraph, right?

You also read the Boston Globe articles in which various family members told reporters the stories they'd been told about the family history, right?

So you know the reported reason the marriage of Donald Herring to Pauline Reed came as a surprise to many of their friends is because they eloped, and the reported reason they eloped is because his parents objected to their son marrying someone with NA ancestry, right?

I don't know if you saw my ETA in the previous post, so here it is again:

ETA: I know a guy with an ancestor who came over on the Mayflower and is a distant relative of Daniel Boone. Is he not allowed to tell anyone about the family history because it was so far back?

What about Sally Hemings' descendants who fought for, and won, the right to be buried in the Jefferson family graveyard at Monticello? Too far back to matter to you? It mattered to them.

Yeah, Warren's parents' marriage was such a scandal that it was celebrated in the local paper. People, please.

You're shifting the goalposts, and doing a pretty bad job of it.

Did you read the Boston Globe articles or not? If you didn't read them, there's no point discussing the information they contained since you can't give an informed response.

Anyway, the question is, at what point is someone no longer allowed to say they have Native American ancestry even when it's true? When does it become unacceptable?
 
I had heard many years ago a great aunt had done our family tree and found we're related to British royalty and that there's even a family castle there. I haven't claimed my crown yet but it's still a fun story to tell.
 
I had heard many years ago a great aunt had done our family tree and found we're related to British royalty and that there's even a family castle there. I haven't claimed my crown yet but it's still a fun story to tell.

Exactly.

I've discovered a few English Lords and Ladies in my ancestry. Fun facts. Am I not allowed to share the stories because it is "too many" generations ago?

I'm also curious, my ancestry & DNA indicates Native American and western European. According to the arguments being put forth by some in this thread, I am not allowed to reference the NA portion of my ancestry, nor in any way say that I am part NA because I am not a registered member of the Cherokee tribe.

Does it also then follow that I am not allowed to say I am white, or that I have Irish or English or Norwegian ancestors because I don't exchange holiday cards with distant kin in those countries?
 
I had heard many years ago a great aunt had done our family tree and found we're related to British royalty and that there's even a family castle there. I haven't claimed my crown yet but it's still a fun story to tell.

Exactly.

I've discovered a few English Lords and Ladies in my ancestry. Fun facts. Am I not allowed to share the stories because it is "too many" generations ago?

I'm also curious, my ancestry & DNA indicates Native American and western European. According to the arguments being put forth by some in this thread, I am not allowed to reference the NA portion of my ancestry, nor in any way say that I am part NA because I am not a registered member of the Cherokee tribe.

Does it also then follow that I am not allowed to say I am white, or that I have Irish or English or Norwegian ancestors because I don't exchange holiday cards with distant kin in those countries?
Who even said that? Mentioning something is not the same thing as making a political career out of it.
 
I had heard many years ago a great aunt had done our family tree and found we're related to British royalty and that there's even a family castle there. I haven't claimed my crown yet but it's still a fun story to tell.

Exactly.

I've discovered a few English Lords and Ladies in my ancestry. Fun facts. Am I not allowed to share the stories because it is "too many" generations ago?

I'm also curious, my ancestry & DNA indicates Native American and western European. According to the arguments being put forth by some in this thread, I am not allowed to reference the NA portion of my ancestry, nor in any way say that I am part NA because I am not a registered member of the Cherokee tribe.

Does it also then follow that I am not allowed to say I am white, or that I have Irish or English or Norwegian ancestors because I don't exchange holiday cards with distant kin in those countries?
Who even said that? Mentioning something is not the same thing as making a political career out of it.

Who has been "making a political career out of it"?
 
Holy shit, you believe that?

herringreedmarriageannouncement.jpg

You read the first paragraph, right?

You also read the Boston Globe articles in which various family members told reporters the stories they'd been told about the family history, right?

So you know the reported reason the marriage of Donald Herring to Pauline Reed came as a surprise to many of their friends is because they eloped, and the reported reason they eloped is because his parents objected to their son marrying someone with NA ancestry, right?

I don't know if you saw my ETA in the previous post, so here it is again:

ETA: I know a guy with an ancestor who came over on the Mayflower and is a distant relative of Daniel Boone. Is he not allowed to tell anyone about the family history because it was so far back?

What about Sally Hemings' descendants who fought for, and won, the right to be buried in the Jefferson family graveyard at Monticello? Too far back to matter to you? It mattered to them.

Yeah, Warren's parents' marriage was such a scandal that it was celebrated in the local paper. People, please.

Scandal isn't the same thing as disapproved by one family. His family might have been quite disapproving and quite scandalized--but those feelings would never have appeared in print. Indeed, such an announcement would be placed in order to deflect from any family disharmony. It's all about image and public face.

And trust me, even when people 'eloped' under the cloud of an early pregnancy, there would be a lovely little write up in the newspapers afterward quite similar to what is posted here. There would be zero mention of the impending happy event, and the baby announcement would have appeared 3-6 months after the arrival.
 
Who has been "making a political career out of it"?

To an extent, Warren and to a large extent, Trump. Harvard used her "ancestry" for political purposes. It would not be a far stretch to say that both she and her politic opponents have used it as well. It is the whole basis of Trump's charge against her.

And in this age of indentity politics it has come to matter politically. Same as with Dolezal posing as black for much more obvious political and personal gain. When society splits people into into group identities and treats them differently based on the groups they are identified with, some will see an incentive to change groups.
 
... snip...

How much Cherokee and Delaware ancestry does Warren's family need to have before they're allowed to claim Native American ancestry?
I don't what the Delaware require for someone to claim to be tribal. But the requirements for Cherokee Nation Tribal membership is pretty steep. There must documents that link the applicant by blood to a specifically named ancestor that is on the official tribal roles. I understand that the Cherokee contacted her and told her to stop calling herself Cherokee.

Claiming Native American ancestry is not at all the same thing as being a tribal member.

Native Americans legitimately have the right to determine tribal membership and correctly point out the limitations of current DNA test databases and their uses and misuses. This is quite different than your spin:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ch...-test-useless-to-determine-tribal-citizenship

My spin? I said she claimed to be Cherokee. That is quite different than claiming Native American ancestry. The Cherokee didn't appreciate the appropriation and let her know.
 
From what I can tell, the only people from whom Ms. Warren's Native American ancestry makes any noticeable difference is her family, Mr Trump and his fellow bigots and their dupes, and maybe the Cherokee nation. No one else gives a god damn about it.
 
Claiming Native American ancestry is not at all the same thing as being a tribal member.

Native Americans legitimately have the right to determine tribal membership and correctly point out the limitations of current DNA test databases and their uses and misuses. This is quite different than your spin:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ch...-test-useless-to-determine-tribal-citizenship

My spin? I said she claimed to be Cherokee. That is quite different than claiming Native American ancestry. The Cherokee didn't appreciate the appropriation and let her know.

It's your spin. Which is different from fact. She didn't 'claim to be Cherokee.' She claimed family legend said she had Cherokee and Delaware ancestry which is why her father's family objected to him marrying her mother. Apparently there were lots of family stories about NA ancestors.

Trump and other bigots try to offload their own bigotry onto Warren. I think she was foolish to ever respond or to make public her DNA results which are not particularly useful in determining ethnic ancestry, especially not Native American ancestry for which there is a huge lack of data available. Tribes do not use DNA analysis to determine tribal membership and Warren has never claimed nor attempted to claim tribal membership.
 
So don't call it race. Mother Nature likes to create semi-hemi-demi-species and telling us that our neat Linnaean classification system has fuck-all to do with the real world.

Still, if you are trying to get clues after a crime, and there is blood spattered on the wall, that blood can be DNA tested to tell us a few things about whomever that blood belongs to. Not just sex, but also what part of the world that person's ancestors came from. So don't call it race, that doesn't eliminate what little genetic diversity the human species does have.

The problem with "race" is that it obscures, rather than clarifies, biological descent. We have known how reproduction works scientifically since the 1930's, and folk classifications of "race" have been scientifically meaningless ever since.

Your forensic scientist is not, in fact, useful if all they can give you is a "race"; the vast majority of people have a much more complicated genetic pattern than belonging exclusively to one apparent race would suggest. Real genetic science is both more precise, and more ready to account for phenotypic variability. Your blood does not, in fact, tell you "what part of the world" you came from, but rather what reproductive networks your ancestors belonged to, as a result of social and political patterns that may have originated in geographical proximity at some point, but were in all likelihood quite complicated in the last few (and therefore most important to creating positive id) generations.

Is it more useful to know that someone "looks black", or that they are one of only a couple dozen people in town, all related to one another, with lineage tying them to a particular village in Ghana, regardless of what their expressed skin color happens to be? The whole idiotic notion of race gets in the way of correct descriptions of inheritance, and new forensic anthropologists usually have to be trained out of making race-based assumptions before they become useful lab techs.

This doesn't make race unimportant. As a social and political reality, it is both empirically real and important for a social scientist to understand. It just doesn't have anything to do with biological science.
Perhaps the whole argument boils down to nothing but linguistics. Humans are grouped into four major distinctive groups. Some call these groups races, some don't like that term. But an anthropologist can examine a scull and immediately place it in one of the groups - of course there is also intermixing that can confuse the matter a bit.
 
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Claiming Native American ancestry is not at all the same thing as being a tribal member.

Native Americans legitimately have the right to determine tribal membership and correctly point out the limitations of current DNA test databases and their uses and misuses. This is quite different than your spin:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ch...-test-useless-to-determine-tribal-citizenship

My spin? I said she claimed to be Cherokee. That is quite different than claiming Native American ancestry. The Cherokee didn't appreciate the appropriation and let her know.

It's your spin. Which is different from fact. She didn't 'claim to be Cherokee.' She claimed family legend said she had Cherokee and Delaware ancestry which is why her father's family objected to him marrying her mother. Apparently there were lots of family stories about NA ancestors.

Trump and other bigots try to offload their own bigotry onto Warren. I think she was foolish to ever respond or to make public her DNA results which are not particularly useful in determining ethnic ancestry, especially not Native American ancestry for which there is a huge lack of data available. Tribes do not use DNA analysis to determine tribal membership and Warren has never claimed nor attempted to claim tribal membership.
My entry in this thread was to say that she published a cookbook titled "Pow Wow Chow" and the author credit is "Elizabeth Warren-Cherokee".

My next post was responding to a post asking (about my first) what the requirements were for a Delaware or Cherokee tribal claim.

I think you are reading a hell of a lot more into my posts than I am writing.
 
It's your spin. Which is different from fact. She didn't 'claim to be Cherokee.' She claimed family legend said she had Cherokee and Delaware ancestry which is why her father's family objected to him marrying her mother. Apparently there were lots of family stories about NA ancestors.

Trump and other bigots try to offload their own bigotry onto Warren. I think she was foolish to ever respond or to make public her DNA results which are not particularly useful in determining ethnic ancestry, especially not Native American ancestry for which there is a huge lack of data available. Tribes do not use DNA analysis to determine tribal membership and Warren has never claimed nor attempted to claim tribal membership.
My entry in this thread was to say that she published a cookbook titled "Pow Wow Chow" and the author credit is "Elizabeth Warren-Cherokee".

My next post was responding to a post asking (about my first) what the requirements were for a Delaware or Cherokee tribal claim.

I think you are reading a hell of a lot more into my posts than I am writing.

Possibly, I am. I apologize. There's just been so much blow up about this entire thing. I didn't mean to impute more to your posts than you intended.

Yes, she did contribute to a community cookbook. I am assuming that this was part of a fundraiser for whoever published the cookbook and that she was asked to contribute a recipe because she had begun to be interested in that part of her family tree. As I have found myself more interested in my own family history as an older adult. When I was a kid, and a young adult, I really didn't care a fig. But as I got older and started hearing some tiny bits and pieces, I became more interested. Truthfully, I just never thought about that stuff when I was younger. An older relative was into family genealogy and would share bits and pieces of info that really meant little to me until I was much older. So, I can understand where Warren was coming from. I think it was a huge mistake to make public results of a commercial DNA test. They are not particularly reliable and with regards to Native American DNA, very little information has been gathered or archived, so it would be not be useful.
 
So don't call it race. Mother Nature likes to create semi-hemi-demi-species and telling us that our neat Linnaean classification system has fuck-all to do with the real world.

Still, if you are trying to get clues after a crime, and there is blood spattered on the wall, that blood can be DNA tested to tell us a few things about whomever that blood belongs to. Not just sex, but also what part of the world that person's ancestors came from. So don't call it race, that doesn't eliminate what little genetic diversity the human species does have.

The problem with "race" is that it obscures, rather than clarifies, biological descent. We have known how reproduction works scientifically since the 1930's, and folk classifications of "race" have been scientifically meaningless ever since.

Your forensic scientist is not, in fact, useful if all they can give you is a "race"; the vast majority of people have a much more complicated genetic pattern than belonging exclusively to one apparent race would suggest. Real genetic science is both more precise, and more ready to account for phenotypic variability. Your blood does not, in fact, tell you "what part of the world" you came from, but rather what reproductive networks your ancestors belonged to, as a result of social and political patterns that may have originated in geographical proximity at some point, but were in all likelihood quite complicated in the last few (and therefore most important to creating positive id) generations.

Is it more useful to know that someone "looks black", or that they are one of only a couple dozen people in town, all related to one another, with lineage tying them to a particular village in Ghana, regardless of what their expressed skin color happens to be? The whole idiotic notion of race gets in the way of correct descriptions of inheritance, and new forensic anthropologists usually have to be trained out of making race-based assumptions before they become useful lab techs.

This doesn't make race unimportant. As a social and political reality, it is both empirically real and important for a social scientist to understand. It just doesn't have anything to do with biological science.
Perhaps the whole argument boils down to nothing but linguistics. Humans are grouped into four major distinctive groups. Some call these groups races, some don't like that term. But an anthropologist can examine a scull and immediately place it in one of the groups - of course there is also intermixing that can confuse the matter a bit.

No, it really doesn't. The "four races of man" were an invention of Karl Linnaeus, based on the four humours that he believed predominated in the biology of humans. His system fell apart the second the issue came under empirical study...

It is on some level a linguistic argument, to this I would agree, though there is a lot of social import riding on it, and whatever you call your "races" they do not exist as biological realities.

I challenge you to find me a single forensic anth lab in the real world that categorizes people based on four "races", or four biological categories by any other name.
 
Perhaps the whole argument boils down to nothing but linguistics. Humans are grouped into four major distinctive groups. Some call these groups races, some don't like that term. But an anthropologist can examine a scull and immediately place it in one of the groups - of course there is also intermixing that can confuse the matter a bit.

No, it really doesn't. The "four races of man" were an invention of Karl Linnaeus, based on the four humours that he believed predominated in the biology of humans. His system fell apart the second the issue came under empirical study...

It is on some level a linguistic argument, to this I would agree, though there is a lot of social import riding on it, and whatever you call your "races" they do not exist as biological realities.

I challenge you to find me a single forensic anth lab in the real world that categorizes people based on four "races", or four biological categories by any other name.

The challenge doesn't work because, again, linguistics. Find me a single forensic anth lab that can not immediately identify and separate sculls that are found in Mongolia, the Congo, Scotland, and Australia.
 
By which you mean to admit that you cannot? If there are four, obviously distinguishable "types" of humans, why doesn't any lab in existence use a four type rubric in assigning projections of possible ethnicity?
 
Who has been "making a political career out of it"?

To an extent, Warren
no

and to a large extent, Trump.
He's a racist. Maybe he's making a political career out of his racism, but I don't think that is what Politesse was referring to.

Harvard used her "ancestry" for political purposes.
that one I might agree with

It would not be a far stretch to say that both she and her politic opponents have used it as well. It is the whole basis of Trump's charge against her.
It would be a very far stretch, especially if you are using Trump's bullshit as any measure.

Or perhaps you think Ted Cruz's father really did kill Kennedy, too?
 
By which you mean to admit that you cannot? If there are four, obviously distinguishable "types" of humans, why doesn't any lab in existence use a four type rubric in assigning projections of possible ethnicity?

I cannot because of the way the challenge was made, labs don't use those terms. But there are absolutely recognizable and identifiable differences across the human spectrum. It wouldn't be possible to know that Native Americans migrated to the Americas from Asia if there wasn't. It wouldn't be possible to identify skulls from Mongolia, the Congo, Scotland, and Australia if there wasn't.
 
Absurd claims; those migrations all left clear and well known markers in the mitochondrial pattern of all descendents who have ancestry tying them to it. Those markers are, however, present regardless of apparent "race" and do not correspond predictably to other factors. Like cranial features, which correspond to a lot of things, some genetic and some environmental. I guarantee you that crania, though they can help rule out or make probable determinations of ethnicity if there are already suspects, can seldom assign a "race" with suitable accuracy. You can guess, because the human genome differs geographically (no one denies this) but not within giant, consistent racial pools like those you are imagining. For instance, a rural South African and an Ethiopean, both "black" to an American, likely differ from one another genetically to a much greater degree than the Ethiopean does from you. Genetic variability makes a lot of clusters of unique genes, but those clusters are usually vary small and local, and have no special compulsion to match social and political categories. A lab would likely be to confirm that someone was African by heritage, for instance, if they had gene sets commonly found on that continent. But that doesn't make them genetically identical, or even similar, to other Africans, let alone other people commonly described as "Blacks". They will be asking "where in the world are these genes most commonly found"? Not "in what race are these genes always found?" And bones are even more of a toss-up, considering the plurality of factors that can affect their growth and morphology, only some of which factors are heritable.
 
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