• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Trump: pull the US out of NATO?

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 27, 2000
Messages
26,334
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Trump Discussed Pulling U.S. From NATO, Aides Say Amid New Concerns Over Russia - The New York Times
Last year, President Trump suggested a move tantamount to destroying NATO: the withdrawal of the United States.

Senior administration officials told The New York Times that several times over the course of 2018, Mr. Trump privately said he wanted to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Current and former officials who support the alliance said they feared Mr. Trump could return to his threat as allied military spending continued to lag behind the goals the president had set.

In the days around a tumultuous NATO summit meeting last summer, they said, Mr. Trump told his top national security officials that he did not see the point of the military alliance, which he presented as a drain on the United States.
What a big payoff it would be for President Putin. What a big payoff it would be for Russian oligarchs' bailout of him and Russian intelligence agencies' electioneering efforts in support of him. I would not be surprised if pulling out of NATO was part of the deal of their supporting him.

It is not only NATO.
The president has repeatedly and publicly challenged or withdrawn from a number of military and economic partnerships, from the Paris climate accord to an Asia-Pacific trade pact. He has questioned the United States’ military alliance with South Korea and Japan, and he has announced a withdrawal of American troops from Syria without first consulting allies in the American-led coalition to defeat the Islamic State.
By doing that, the US would become more internationally isolated, and thus weaker. Something that President Putin would be very happy to see.

There is something like that in Russia's own history. Vladimir Lenin had been living in exile in Switzerland during World War I. But then someone in Germany got an idea for destabilizing Russia. Send him there, where he can organize revolutionaries to cause trouble there. They did, sending him across Germany in a diplomatically sealed train like some dangerous microbe. When in Russia, he organized a coup against the Provisional Government, and in the  Treaty of Brest-Litovsk some months after his successful coup, he agreed to let the Central Powers have what is now Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine.
 
I'm pretty certain if you asked Trump his thoughts on Article V, he would be clueless. So in a way the US is already out of NATO. If it happens, I don't think anyone will be surprised; the growing sentiment is NATO allies are going to continue on their own anyways.
 
There is something like that in Russia's own history. Vladimir Lenin had been living in exile in Switzerland during World War I. But then someone in Germany got an idea for destabilizing Russia. Send him there, where he can organize revolutionaries to cause trouble there. They did, sending him across Germany in a diplomatically sealed train like some dangerous microbe. When in Russia, he organized a coup against the Provisional Government, and in the  Treaty of Brest-Litovsk some months after his successful coup, he agreed to let the Central Powers have what is now Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine.
I agree, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland should go back to Russia :)
 
There is something like that in Russia's own history. Vladimir Lenin had been living in exile in Switzerland during World War I. But then someone in Germany got an idea for destabilizing Russia. Send him there, where he can organize revolutionaries to cause trouble there. They did, sending him across Germany in a diplomatically sealed train like some dangerous microbe. When in Russia, he organized a coup against the Provisional Government, and in the  Treaty of Brest-Litovsk some months after his successful coup, he agreed to let the Central Powers have what is now Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine.
I agree, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland should go back to Russia :)

Barbos: you make a good point here. The west and Nato needs to continue being the defender of countries that don't want to be conquered by the Russian military.
 
To the Finland Station in a not-so-sealed Train - European studies blog
Vladimir Lenin's Return Journey to Russia Changed the World Forever | Travel | Smithsonian
Lenin at Spartacus Educational

Born in 1870, Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov became a revolutionary political activist in the 1890's, getting exiled to Siberia for three years, and then leaving Russia, living in various places in western Europe. However, he continued to be a revolutionary activist, and he continued to study and write. In London, he spent much of his time in the British Museum, with its excellent library. He argued at length for a centralized, disciplined party, and at one point, he called his faction the Bolsheviks or majority party, and some rivals the Mensheviks or minority party. Both names stuck.

Russian revolutionaries revolted in 1905 and failed. But the Tsarist regime made concessions like setting up a parliament, the Duma.

Then came World War I. Russia got into it, fighting Germany and Austria-Hungary in support of Serbia. But Russia's armies did very poorly, and as the war dragged on, it caused food shortages, with soldiers deserting and mutinying, and with outright revolution early in 1917. Tsar Nicholas II soon abdicated and a Provisional Government succeeded him.

Lenin saw an opportunity in this and he tried to return to Russia. Going through Britain and France was too risky. But Germany had a shared enemy, the existing Russian regime, and Germany was already trying to encourage dissension there with its propaganda efforts. Some German officials decided that sending a big-name revolutionary there would be good for further destabilization, and they made a deal with Lenin.

On April 9, Lenin and some of his fellow revolutionaries departed in a train from Zürich, Switzerland. He told a friend there that “either we’ll be swinging from the gallows in three months or we shall be in power.” Some fellow revolutionaries protested him as some kind of traitor, however.

They changed to a commandeered German military train on the German border, and some German soldiers traveled with them. This train was marked off as sealed, though in a legal and diplomatic sense rather than a physical sense. Lenin and his delegation were stuck inside, though they could talk to people outside of the train, and they received a delegation of revolutionaries during a layover in Berlin. Though those revolutionaries were allowed on board the train, they were not allowed to talk to Lenin himself. The train was given high priority on Germany's railroad network, even more than the Kaiser's son Wilhelm, who was made to wait two hours to let this train pass.

At Sassnitz, north of Berlin, Lenin and his delegation went on a ferry to Trelleborg in Sweden, and they then went by a more ordinary train northward to Stockholm, and then to Haparanda in the far north, arriving on April 15. They crossed the Torne River there, entering Finland at Tornio. Lenin was concerned that he might be arrested by the border guards there, and he was pleasantly surprised to receive a warm welcome there. From Tornio he continued to Tampere, and then to St. Petersburg, then Petrograd, arriving at the city's Finland Station on the night of April 16. Fellow revolutionaries met him there, and cheered and celebrated.

Lenin kept busy during the trip, writing his "April Theses", where he urged no compromise with moderates and supporters of the Provisional Government, calling them hopelessly compromised and worse. He also demanded peace with Germany and Austria-Hungary, ending Russia's participation in the war. He issued these writings when he arrived in Russia, making speeches with his proposals and promising peace, bread, and land.

The Provisional Government continued its part in the war, despite the food shortages and some 2 million soldiers deserting. Lenin continued organizing, though he fled to Finland in the middle of 1917. Late that year, he returned, and he successfully organized the overthrow of the Provisional Government, the Russian "Revolution". But his opponents did not give up, and his followers fought them in the Russian Civil War, finally defeating them in 1921.

While that was going on, Bolshevik officials were negotiating a peace with Germany. On December 15, they agreed to an armistice with the Central Powers, but in February the next year, German officials announced that they would be restarting the war if they did not have a treaty. They settled on one, and on March 3, 1918, they signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Germany got control of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Russian parts of Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine.

-

Almost a year before, German officials had let Lenin return home through their territory, hoping that he would destabilize Russia. But they now got more than they had likely hoped for back then -- a lot of additional territory to be either annexed or ruled by puppet rulers.

Cloud Lenin's successor Vladimir Putin have done the same with Donald Trump? Bailing him out and supporting his Presidential campaign so as to get dissolution of NATO.
 
There is something like that in Russia's own history. Vladimir Lenin had been living in exile in Switzerland during World War I. But then someone in Germany got an idea for destabilizing Russia. Send him there, where he can organize revolutionaries to cause trouble there. They did, sending him across Germany in a diplomatically sealed train like some dangerous microbe. When in Russia, he organized a coup against the Provisional Government, and in the  Treaty of Brest-Litovsk some months after his successful coup, he agreed to let the Central Powers have what is now Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine.
I agree, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland should go back to Russia :)

Barbos: you make a good point here. The west and Nato needs to continue being the defender of countries that don't want to be conquered by the Russian military.
Who said anything about conquering? These countries legally belong to Russia :)
 
Barbos: you make a good point here. The west and Nato needs to continue being the defender of countries that don't want to be conquered by the Russian military.
Who said anything about conquering? These countries legally belong to Russia :)

Sucking pootey dick again...
Those countries used to be under the grip of the Soviet Union. Now they're not, and they like it that way.
 
Barbos: you make a good point here. The west and Nato needs to continue being the defender of countries that don't want to be conquered by the Russian military.
Who said anything about conquering? These countries legally belong to Russia :)

Sucking pootey dick again...
Those countries used to be under the grip of the Soviet Union. Now they're not, and they like it that way.
Nope, they were under the grip or Russia (not Soviet Union)
 
The purpose of NATO was to guard against a Soviet invasion of Europe.

It should have been disbanded decades ago.
 
Nope, they were under the grip or Russia (not Soviet Union)

The “Soviet Union” represented the “Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,” a collection of 15 states that existed from 1922 to 1991. On the other hand, “Russia” refers to a particular location, government, and country in the world. 3. The Soviet Union referred to the whole union and all of its 15 republics.

In Eastern Europe the 6 new (or restored) countries are Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova. The Eastern European countries freed from Soviet domination but not part of the U.S.S.R. are Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Albania and Yugoslavia.
 
The purpose of NATO was to guard against a Soviet invasion of Europe.

It should have been disbanded decades ago.

No, it still works as a good bulwark against Russian aggression and keeps the Western democracies working together. That's why dismantling it is Putin's #1 foreign policy goal and his viceroy is trying to find a way to make that happen.
 
Nope, they were under the grip or Russia (not Soviet Union)

The “Soviet Union” represented the “Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,” a collection of 15 states that existed from 1922 to 1991. On the other hand, “Russia” refers to a particular location, government, and country in the world. 3. The Soviet Union referred to the whole union and all of its 15 republics.

In Eastern Europe the 6 new (or restored) countries are Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova. The Eastern European countries freed from Soviet domination but not part of the U.S.S.R. are Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Albania and Yugoslavia.
There was a Russia before Soviet Union, that is before revolt organized by germans and supported by Latvian Riflemen
 
The purpose of NATO was to guard against a Soviet invasion of Europe.

It should have been disbanded decades ago.

No, it still works as a good bulwark against Russian aggression and keeps the Western democracies working together. That's why dismantling it is Putin's #1 foreign policy goal and his viceroy is trying to find a way to make that happen.

What Russian aggression in Europe?

Integration with Russia should be the goal.

Russians spending Euro's should be the goal.

Trading England for Russia should be the goal.
 
The purpose of NATO was to guard against a Soviet invasion of Europe.

It should have been disbanded decades ago.

No, it still works as a good bulwark against Russian aggression and keeps the Western democracies working together. That's why dismantling it is Putin's #1 foreign policy goal and his viceroy is trying to find a way to make that happen.

What Russian aggression in Europe?

Integration with Russia should be the goal.

Russians spending Euro's should be the goal.

Trading England for Russia should be the goal.

What do you mean "what Russian aggression in Europe"? You do realize that Ukraine is in Europe and the Russian military is currently occupying the part of it which it invaded, right? That it's trying to expand its influence so that the Eastern European countries defer to Moscow instead of ally with the West?

Whatever issues you have with the US and Western governments, you do realize that Russian is 100x worse on every single one of those issues, correct?
 
What Russian aggression in Europe?

Integration with Russia should be the goal.

Russians spending Euro's should be the goal.

Trading England for Russia should be the goal.

What do you mean "what Russian aggression in Europe"? You do realize that Ukraine is in Europe and the Russian military is currently occupying the part of it which it invaded, right? That it's trying to expand its influence so that the Eastern European countries defer to Moscow instead of ally with the West?

Whatever issues you have with the US and Western governments, you do realize that Russian is 100x worse on every single one of those issues, correct?

Yes the Ukraine. That is true.

But I'm talking about the nations NATO was created to protect.

The way you make Russia better is through integration not isolation.
 
Yes the Ukraine. That is true.

But I'm talking about the nations NATO was created to protect.

The way you make Russia better is through integration not isolation.

The nations NATO was created to protect are protected better by hampering the expansion of Russian influence onto their neighbors, because they don't want to stop there.

Russia is run by criminals who have impoverished their countrymen in order to enrich themselves and they need additional resources to continue the ponzi scheme they've built their power base on. Starving them of resources is the only way to deal with them, since they are not going to be good actors and if they're offered a friendly hand, the only reason they'd take it is so that they can stick a knife into you. There isn't a way to integrate with them, there's only various methods of containing them. You may as well ask the FBI to combat the mafia by sitting down with them over brunch and trying to convince the Dons about the social benefits of enacting a more morally justified business plan.
 
Yes the Ukraine. That is true.

But I'm talking about the nations NATO was created to protect.

The way you make Russia better is through integration not isolation.

The nations NATO was created to protect are protected better by hampering the expansion of Russian influence onto their neighbors, because they don't want to stop there.
Not Russian, Soviet and even that is questionable. I mean, yes, west was afraid of USSR, but it was not justified.
Russia is run by criminals who have impoverished their countrymen in order to enrich themselves and they need additional resources to continue the ponzi scheme they've built their power base on. Starving them of resources is the only way to deal with them,
I am glad that you admit that.
since they are not going to be good actors and if they're offered a friendly hand,
Yes, since Putin is bad the whole country should suffer.
the only reason they'd take it is so that they can stick a knife into you. There isn't a way to integrate with them, there's only various methods of containing them. You may as well ask the FBI to combat the mafia by sitting down with them over brunch and trying to convince the Dons about the social benefits of enacting a more morally justified business plan.
You do realize that the current regime was installed with the help of US/West?
 
What Russian aggression in Europe?

Integration with Russia should be the goal.

Russians spending Euro's should be the goal.

Trading England for Russia should be the goal.

What do you mean "what Russian aggression in Europe"? You do realize that Ukraine is in Europe and the Russian military is currently occupying the part of it which it invaded, right? That it's trying to expand its influence so that the Eastern European countries defer to Moscow instead of ally with the West?

Whatever issues you have with the US and Western governments, you do realize that Russian is 100x worse on every single one of those issues, correct?
Maybe 1.1x worse.
 
Yes, since Putin is bad the whole country should suffer.

Correct. Since Putin is the leader of the country and uses it as his piggy bank, the only way to go after him is to go after the country as a whole. It is Russian citizens who are occupying Crimea at the moment and it is Russian citizens who are engaging in espionage activities against the rest of the world. So long as Russian citizens are his tools, there isn't a way to go after him without involving Russian citizens.

It's the same concept as people who don't want to travel to or do business with the US while Trump is President, just on a much larger scale. Most Americans don't support Trump, but the only way that others can take action against him is to target the country he's in charge of itself, since they have no way of taking actions which impact him directly.
 
Back
Top Bottom