Trump voters incapable of acknowledging a fact even when it is staring them in the face

[Bomb#20]

Yeah, because people don't stop looking for work EVER.

I take it you're being sarcastic. Why? Did I say something you disagree with? If so, what?

You do know they didn't just magically change they way they report the unemployed to make Obama look good, right??

Yes. What's your point? I didn't criticize Obama. I voted for Obama twice and given the field of other candidates I'd have done it three times if he weren't term-limited out. It isn't Obama's job to fix every damn unreasonable practice of the federal government -- that's too big a job for a President with eighty years in office, let alone eight. I criticized Ravensky for making disparaging accusations against her political opponents, offering non-evidence for her charges, and falsely representing it as evidence.

 

[Bomb#20]

By any reasonable measure unemployment has gone down.

People keep asserting that, and not providing evidence for it. How do you square your claim with the graph in post #5? Help me out here.

(It should be noted, by the way, that the twenty-year trend of potential workers bailing out of the job market is actually more like a sixty-year trend, with the first forty years obscured by the greater number of women bailing in as it became socially acceptable for them not to be housewives.)

 

[Bomb#20]

Ravensky, let me draw your attention to four facts...

Bomb #20, telling me something is a fact three times does not make it a fact. Your use of proof-by-repetition doesn't mean you have a case.

Your decision to make a bid for the "I'm rubber you're glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you" championship is noted. What, pray tell, are you alleging that I told you is a fact three times?

But it certainly illustrates the point of the OP. Good job!

You appear to be accusing me, falsely and with reckless disregard for the truth, both of not acknowledging or caring about facts, and also of being a Trump voter. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Let's remember here that it is Bomb #20 calling them "stupid"

That is another false accusation, made, just like the previous ones, with reckless disregard for the truth. Why are you behaving in such an unethical way?

 

[credoconsolans]

By any reasonable measure unemployment has gone down.

People keep asserting that, and not providing evidence for it. How do you square your claim with the graph in post #5? Help me out here.

(It should be noted, by the way, that the twenty-year trend of potential workers bailing out of the job market is actually more like a sixty-year trend, with the first forty years obscured by the greater number of women bailing in as it became socially acceptable for them not to be housewives.)

The indicators that show us unemployment is down are the same indicators we've always used to determine the unemployment rate. Critics need to tell us why that indicator has been considered fairly accurate all these years...except for during the Obama administration.

 

[Elixir]

Other than proving the OP, what is Bomb20 asserting here?
Apparently the idea is that unemployment has been going up for 60 years. By now, the numbers of unemployed should exceed 100% of the population. If the "down" segments of the graph are actually hiding an upward trend, then the upward sections of the graph must indicate wholesale firings of entire population segments.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Apparently the idea is that unemployment has been going up for 60 years. By now, the numbers of unemployed should exceed 100% of the population.

Fox News and Friends says the unemployment rate goes down when Republicans are in charge.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

His supporters don't know and don't care about actual facts.

So your theory is what? That Trump voters are too stupid to understand that people who have given up looking for work aren't fully human, and therefore when the government doesn't count them as unemployed, and is thus able to report a falling unemployment rate, it's correct?

Speaking of "reckless disregard for the truth..."

 

[laughing dog]

Your argument would have more merit if RavenSky's theory required Trump voters to be stupid. But it doesn't.

My argument is independent of whether RavenSky's theory required that Trump's voters be stupid.

Bomb #20 explicitly injected the term stupid even though Ravensky did not call them stupid. Bomb #20 called them stupid in an argument even if he does not think they are stupid. Your inability to recognize that simple reality does not alter the fact your word salad apologia is unconvincing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yup... it was like that under Obama... and the W Bush before him.

"Yup"? What kind of an answer is that? Yup what? Do you mean, Yup, that's Ravensky's theory? Yup, people who have given up looking for work aren't fully human? Yup, the government is correct to not count people who have given up looking for work as unemployed?

Or do you just mean, Yup, the government doesn't count them as unemployed?

As in the unemployment rate under W was reported the same way. There was unemployment and underemployment. If you folks bothered to know anything about this stuff, you wouldn't be so surprised.

 

[Toni]

Uneducated, yes. Some due to circumstances and some simply saw no point. Stupid? No. Actually some are fairly smart. At least among the number that I am personally acquainted with, work with, am related to (by marriage).

Common theme is that nothing is ever their fault and everything is very unfair. At least one (co-worker) is definitely a sociopath who worships money and power and probably jerks off to fantasies of being Trump's long lost son. To the best of my knowledge, none has voluntarily read a single book since they graduated from high school, including the college grads.

But not stupid.

Any evangelical that loves Jesus is fucking stupid for voting for Trump.

Morally inconsistent, yes. Willfully blind to their own racism and misogyny? Yep. More than a few. Stupid: not necessarily. Even smart people do stupid things now and then. Even not stupid people do stupid things now and then.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Any evangelical that loves Jesus is fucking stupid for voting for Trump.

Morally inconsistent, yes. Willfully blind to their own racism and misogyny? Yep. More than a few. Stupid: not necessarily. Even smart people do stupid things now and then. Even not stupid people do stupid things now and then.

Note, I'm claiming their IQs are basement level. I'm saying they are stupid. Any evangelical that voted for a man who lives an absolutely opulent lifestyle and markets his brand name as being opulent is a complete and utter idiot. I don't care if they can perform brain surgery, that is merely a skill and is offset by their complete inability to show any consistent judgement at all.

 

[laughing dog]

People keep asserting that, and not providing evidence for it. How do you square your claim with the graph in post #5? Help me out here.

I seriously doubt you are serious about getting help.

The unemployment rate is down. The number of unemployed is down as well (source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/U6RATE - I wish I knew how to import that graph here). Your argument is that Trump supporters are equating joblessness with unemployment. First, you have absolutely no evidence that shows they are doing so. Second, your notion of joblessness includes people who do not wish to work (the retired from working) and those who cannot work (those who are incapacitated), and you present no evidence that indicates this rise in joblessness is predominated by those who are willing and able to work but who have withdrawn themselves from the labor force.

Finally, the OP gave two examples - unemployment and the stock market. The stock market is up by any measure. Yet Trump supporters believe the opposite. You have ignored this part of the evidence.

ETA - Thanks to excellent technical advice from Deepak, here is the graph referenced above:

 

[Malintent]

-67% of Trump voters say that unemployment increased during the Obama administration, to only 20% who say it decreased.

-Only 41% of Trump voters say that the stock market went up during the Obama administration. 39% say it went down, and another 19% say they're not sure.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/polls/

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_120916.pdf

His supporters don't know and don't care about actual facts.

My father-in-law is a trump supporter and said, literally, word for word, "I do not believe in facts".

What he meant was that information comes from everywhere and everything is just as right as everything else... so believe what you want because it is just as true as any other belief, and that is why we vote... to decide what will be true. So, sicne trump won, wht trump says best represents the truth..

I didn;t just make that up... this is what he thinks... and I think it is what the basis of the trump supporter believes too.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/polls/

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_120916.pdf

His supporters don't know and don't care about actual facts.

My father-in-law is a trump supporter and said, literally, word for word, "I do not believe in facts".

What he meant was that information comes from everywhere and everything is just as right as everything else... so believe what you want because it is just as true as any other belief, and that is why we vote... to decide what will be true. So, sicne trump won, wht trump says best represents the truth..

I didn;t just make that up... this is what he thinks... and I think it is what the basis of the trump supporter believes too.

A lot of Trump supporters have this idea that 'all opinions are equal'. It is a frightening concept.

- - - Updated - - -

People keep asserting that, and not providing evidence for it. How do you square your claim with the graph in post #5? Help me out here.

I seriously doubt you are serious about getting help.

The unemployment rate is down. The number of unemployed is down as well (source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/U6RATE - I wish I knew how to import that graph here). Your argument is that Trump supporters are equating joblessness with unemployment. First, you have absolutely no evidence that shows they are doing so. Second, your notion of joblessness includes people who do not wish to work (the retired from working) and those who cannot work (those who are incapacitated), and you present no evidence that indicates this rise in joblessness is predominated by those who are willing and able to work but who have withdrawn themselves from the labor force.

Finally, the OP gave two examples - unemployment and the stock market. The stock market is up by any measure. Yet Trump supporters believe the opposite. You have ignored this part of the evidence.

The Trump basers believe the economy did not improve under Obama. When Obama took office, hundreds of thousands of jobs were being lost every month and the Stock Market fell to less than half of what it was worth. Now the Stock Market is higher than ever and the economy is adding jobs. If someone can consider that not an improvement, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

 

[Elixir]

Apparently the idea is that unemployment has been going up for 60 years. By now, the numbers of unemployed should exceed 100% of the population.

Fox News and Friends says the unemployment rate goes down when Republicans are in charge.

They say whatever they think will make "their side" look better. I don't suppose they have any way of reconciling that assertion with the data on the graph, eh? Maybe Bomb#20 can explain why the graph looks the way it does, showing unemployment rising when Repugs are in control, and dropping when Dems are in control. He has asserted that the parts of the graph showing declines in unemployment are actually rises in unemployment due to non-participation and dropouts. But the same data sets are used in the parts of the graph that show unemployment rising under the Pugs. So that must mean that those segments show a totally BALLISTIC rate of unemployment increase, right?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

By any reasonable measure unemployment has gone down.

People keep asserting that, and not providing evidence for it. How do you square your claim with the graph in post #5? Help me out here.

(It should be noted, by the way, that the twenty-year trend of potential workers bailing out of the job market is actually more like a sixty-year trend, with the first forty years obscured by the greater number of women bailing in as it became socially acceptable for them not to be housewives.)

Ever hear of baby boomers retiring? The decline in the labor force participation rate doesn't prove unemployment!

 

[RavenSky]

<snip>

So you went on and on and on, yet failed to show that anyone other than Bomb #20 brought the characterization of Trump supporters as "stupid" into this thread. So I stand vindicated in my original statement, and you can drop your useless misdirected finger wagging now. It is tiresome.

Bye bye

 

[RavenSky]

I criticized Ravensky for making disparaging accusations against her political opponents, offering non-evidence for her charges, and falsely representing it as evidence.

And I criticized Trump supporters. I don't have "political opponents". Moreover, I provided links to the facts. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the facts is not my problem.

 

[RavenSky]

My father-in-law is a trump supporter and said, literally, word for word, "I do not believe in facts".

What he meant was that information comes from everywhere and everything is just as right as everything else... so believe what you want because it is just as true as any other belief, and that is why we vote... to decide what will be true. So, sicne trump won, wht trump says best represents the truth..

I didn;t just make that up... this is what he thinks... and I think it is what the basis of the trump supporter believes too.

A lot of Trump supporters have this idea that 'all opinions are equal'. It is a frightening concept.

I have never been able to comprehend a person who thinks like Malintent's father-in-law. I can understand having a difference of opinion. I can understand being ignorant of facts (in the absence of evidence). I simply cannot understand how someone can "not believe in facts".

And these people vote.

 

[RavenSky]

Fox News and Friends says the unemployment rate goes down when Republicans are in charge.

They say whatever they think will make "their side" look better. I don't suppose they have any way of reconciling that assertion with the data on the graph, eh? Maybe Bomb#20 can explain why the graph looks the way it does, showing unemployment rising when Repugs are in control, and dropping when Dems are in control. He has asserted that the parts of the graph showing declines in unemployment are actually rises in unemployment due to non-participation and dropouts. But the same data sets are used in the parts of the graph that show unemployment rising under the Pugs. So that must mean that those segments show a totally BALLISTIC rate of unemployment increase, right?

What Bomb #20 is blathering on about (as if it changes anything) is the differences between U3 vs U6 measures of labor. The U3 measure is and always has been the number being referred to when government and news reports talk about "unemployment". "U3 is the official unemployment rate." The *real* rate. Bomb knows or should know this.

Unfortunately, ever since President Obama was elected, Faux News and the right-wing bloviators have hoodwinked their audience into believing that the U6 is the *real* "unemployment" rate. It isn't. But even if Bomb wants to believe that it is, so what. The U6 has ALSO decreased during President Obama's terms in office. It is down to 9.30% as of November 2016 from 14.20% as of January 2009 when G.W. Bush handed over the economy he trashed.

So no matter which of the "U's" Bomb or the Trump supporters want to look at, it remains a fully factual statement that unemployment decreased during the Obama administration, and that the 67% of Trump supporters who insist "that unemployment increased during the Obama administration" are just fucking wrong. (Not cursing at you. Just gobsmacked at the fact-denying Trump supporters, and very very concerned about how badly they are going to destroy this country in the next 4 years)

Here is a very neutral source of information on the topic of unemployment measures, complete with really cool graphs: http://www.macrotrends.net/1377/u6-unemployment-rate

And here is a rabidly partisan article shredding the bullshit right-wing idea Bomb is trying to pass off as intelligent contribution to this discussion: http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/11/11/raw-data-unemployment/