TV Show "The Healer" (TLC Channel)

[Thomas II]

Has anyone seen this show about a guy called Charlie Goldsmith, from Melbourne, Australia, who apparently can heal people free of charge? Possible? Not possible? What's the deal?

 

[beero1000]

Somehow I get the feeling that if someone was actually able to heal people like that, I wouldn't be hearing about it for the first time in the trailer for his TLC reality show.

 

[none]

beero1000 makes a valid point
the show airs on Wednesday morning, I'll check it out but I'm skeptical

 

[Thomas II]

Somehow I get the feeling that if someone was actually able to heal people like that, I wouldn't be hearing about it for the first time in the trailer for his TLC reality show.

Personally, I've never seen anything like this...

I don't even know how it happens, but something unusual is happening. People seem to be having instantaneous pain relief...There's no religion or any system of belief involved...He doesn't charge people who ask to be "treated", and that's a first for me. So I'm very curious about the whole thing.

http://www.charliegoldsmith.com/

 

[bilby]

This ticks all the boxes for obvious nonsense.

"Does not charge for" is not the same as "Does not profit from", and the existence of a TV show is a HUGE red flag.

The only published study mentioned on the linked page comes from a publication that makes the Quackwatch list of 'Nonrecommended Periodicals', and as such qualifies as bullshit unless and until confirmed by a reputable journal.

The thing that surprises me is that anyone could be taken in by this; it's the exact same MO employed by fakers and charlatans since forever, and should be setting off skepticism alerts in every halfway educated mind within a twenty thousand mile radius.

 

[Thomas II]

This ticks all the boxes for obvious nonsense.

"Does not charge for" is not the same as "Does not profit from", and the existence of a TV show is a HUGE red flag.

The only published study mentioned on the linked page comes from a publication that makes the Quackwatch list of 'Nonrecommended Periodicals', and as such qualifies as bullshit unless and until confirmed by a reputable journal.

The thing that surprises me is that anyone could be taken in by this; it's the exact same MO employed by fakers and charlatans since forever, and should be setting off skepticism alerts in every halfway educated mind within a twenty thousand mile radius.

We are all skeptical about what's going on, because we don't know what is actually happening here, including you. You can't prove this guy is a charlatan...

I'm not claiming this guy is what he claims to be. I just found about him recently, in November, but so far I've not seen anything that strikes me as fake.

I would like to hear more about the doctors and patients he works with, because, if you watched the videos presented so far, they seem to be pretty impressed with the results.

I would like to see the results of scientific studies about his abilities.

I would like to know how it would be even possible for this to happen.

You seem to be saying that it is impossible for this to be happening at all...

I'm more in a "show me" disposition...

 

[bilby]

This ticks all the boxes for obvious nonsense.

"Does not charge for" is not the same as "Does not profit from", and the existence of a TV show is a HUGE red flag.

The only published study mentioned on the linked page comes from a publication that makes the Quackwatch list of 'Nonrecommended Periodicals', and as such qualifies as bullshit unless and until confirmed by a reputable journal.

The thing that surprises me is that anyone could be taken in by this; it's the exact same MO employed by fakers and charlatans since forever, and should be setting off skepticism alerts in every halfway educated mind within a twenty thousand mile radius.

We are all skeptical about what's going on, because we don't know what is actually happening here, including you. You can't prove this guy is a charlatan...

I don't need to. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And instead we have piss-weak evidence, that follows closely the patterns usually seen in fraud, confidence trickery and charlatanism.

There is zero reason to give any further credence to this nonsense until and unless extraordinary and well tested evidence can be provided.

Until that happens, it's perfectly reasonable to presume that he is yet another scumbag preying on the vulnerable.

Such scumbags are two a penny; real 'energy healers' in the other hand are as commonplace as rocking-horse shit.

I'm not claiming this guy is what he claims to be. I just found about him recently, in November, but so far I've not seen anything that strikes me as fake.

Then you are monumentally gullible. The whole thing screams 'FAKE!' and reeks of bull faeces.

I would like to hear more about the doctors and patients he works with, because, if you watched the videos presented so far, they seem to be pretty impressed with the results.

People are easily impressed. I want to see evidence, not anecdotes. Peer reviewed research published in a reputable journal (at the very least, in one that doesn't make the Quackwatch shit-list) is the MINIMUM standard for even fairly ordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require a lot more than a few videos of impressed patients.

I would like to see the results of scientific studies about his abilities.

Me too. But I'm not holding my breath.

I would like to know how it would be even possible for this to happen.

As far as we can tell (based on all of our actual knowledge in medicine, biology and physics), it's not. That's a fucking huge hint right there.

You seem to be saying that it is impossible for this to be happening at all...

Not impossible. Just incredibly implausible, and totally unevidenced. Anecdotes and junk papers in disreputable journals are not evidence that it's possible; but they are evidence that the people selling this line of baloney know how to impress the rubes - which is not a skill that a genuine practitioner needs to develop.

I'm more in a "show me" disposition...

I see videos of anecdotes (strike one); a paper in a discredited journal (strike two); and an upcoming TV show. They tried (and abjectly failed) twice to show us. Why do they deserve a third crack at it?

Real discoveries simply don't follow this pattern. It's obviously nonsense.

 

[bilby]

OK, so now I am not trying to compose big responses on a minuscule touchscreen, I think I should expand on my reasons for rejecting this outright.

The claim is that the practitioner, Charlie Goldsmith, is able to reduce the pain felt by patients; and that he does this without any material passing into or out of the patient.

The details on his website are sketchy, and I am not in a position to watch video; But my understanding is that he closes his eyes, and perhaps touches the patient gently; But he does not massage the patients, nor break their skin in any way, nor have them consume any material substance.

His "paper" says, in its introduction:

Energy healing and energy medicine (EM) are terms derived from the theory that a subtle biologic or spiritual energy surrounds and permeates the body and can be influenced for therapeutic effect. Known by various names in 97 different cultures, the concept of energy healing has been recorded throughout history. The National Institutes of Health includes energy healing therapy in its list of popular complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) methods.

Practitioners of EM treat the patient in close proximity (often with minimal or no physical contact) as well as at a distance (from a different room or even a different time zone). Studies have shown EM to improve pain, anxiety, wound healing, functional status, blood pressure, immune function, relaxation, well-being, cancer outcomes, fatigue, mood, fibromyalgia, phantom limb pain, and carpal tunnel syndrome. No report was found in the published literature of increased mortality, morbidity, or serious adverse effects, although some caution in patient selection is advisable.

Even though mechanisms of EM have not yet been established in terms of biomedical science, theories have been advanced, and EM is increasingly being offered to both inpatients and outpatients by major hospitals.

(My bold). So, going by what the claimants themselves have to say about this purported effect, it is somehow transmitted from practitioner to patient, without physical contact.

Action at a distance is a very well studied area of physics, so it should be a doddle to work out what the nature of this transmission is, if it is something currently understood - ultrasound, for example; or radio waves (or any other electromagnetic radiation); or gravity.

Well, we can probably rule out gravity - if gravity was the cause, then any person standing in the same spot relative to the patient (or even a piece of hospital equipment), as long as it was of similar mass to the "healer" would have the same effect. Light and sound would be obvious to even the most casual observer, and these are not reported. Ultrasound would be easy to detect - and moreover, there is no known mechanism by which humans could generate ultrasound without either using a machine, or being consciously aware of the fact - if this "healer" is whistling between his teeth at a frequency outside the audible range, then surely he could report this fact, and others could attempt to emulate the feat.

The problem for this claim then is simple and devastating - there is no known mechanism by which this could work. The four fundamental forces can't do it without being obvious, and thereby failing to remain 'not yet established' - the Strong and Weak forces act at the subatomic scale, and couldn't possibly be influential across the vast gulf between adjacent atoms, much less the far greater distance between patient and "Healer". We already ruled out Gravity, and Electromagnetism is easy to detect - and has not been detected. Therefore, IF there is any physical (as opposed to psychological) effect here, it must be due to an unknown force or particle. And we know from Quantum Field Theory that there are no such forces or particles, at energies and scales that are relevant to humans; It is impossible that such things could exist and not have been detected, unless QFT is fundamentally wrong.

So, if this guy actually can heal people - if there is ANYTHING AT ALL in ANY of the claims of 'Energy healing and energy medicine', then we need to throw out, or drastically modify, Quantum Field Theory in order to accommodate these new claims.

That is, we are being asked to accept (on the basis of a few anecdotes and a piss-weak paper in a dodgy journal) that the best tested and most successful theory in the history of science is fundamentally wrong.

If he had claimed to have built a perpetual motion machine, than that would be a MORE PLAUSIBLE claim than the one he is actually making. If he claimed to be able to fall upwards, that too would be more plausible. If he claimed to be able to shrink himself down to the size of a red blood corpuscle, squeeze into the patient's veins, physically fix the cause of the pain, and then return to normal size, in less time than it takes for us to blink, then that too would be a MORE PLAUSIBLE claim, based on the fundamentals of our understanding of how the universe works.

One of the most important, impressive, and useful features of the vast body of scientific knowledge that mankind has amassed, is that it all fits together - As new research is done, and new theories developed, the number of incompatible ways of looking at reality has steadily declined. We now have the list down to two - every phenomenon we have ever observed at scales from the size of the solar system, to the size of subatomic particles, can be completely explained, either in terms of Relativity, or in terms of QFT. There are a number of ongoing attempts to reconcile these two competing fundamental theories; and to expand our understanding to super large scale phenomena, like galaxies, and super small scale phenomena, like quarks. But the only areas where these two disagree, or don't accurately predict our observations, are environments far too energetic, or too large, or too small to be of any interest in medicine. We know that this "healer" doesn't generate sufficient energy to form particles unknown to science with his brain, because we observe that he has not vaporized the entire planet during one of his sessions.

The result of this better and better grasp of how everything works is that any new stuff has higher and higher hurdles to jump, in order to get accepted - not because of skepticism, but because there are fewer and fewer gaps into which such things can fit - and if they don't fit, we have to choose an existing 'known' that we are happy to discard in order to make the new hypothesis fit.

Some things just cannot fit without discarding vast swathes of really useful and well tested science - and this is one of those. The evidentiary hurdle that this claim needs to surmount if it is to be accepted is HUGE, because of the number of well established theories that would need to be modified or discarded, were it to be true. That means that a few video anecdotes and a paper in a dodgy journal are as effective in establishing this as fact, as the paper wings and plastic propeller my brother and I glued to the coffee table when we were little kids were at making that table fly. The only real difference is that nobody made a TV series about how a five year old and his three year old brother had made a possible breakthrough in aeronautics.

 

[beero1000]

Somehow I get the feeling that if someone was actually able to heal people like that, I wouldn't be hearing about it for the first time in the trailer for his TLC reality show.

Personally, I've never seen anything like this...

I don't even know how it happens, but something unusual is happening. People seem to be having instantaneous pain relief...There's no religion or any system of belief involved...He doesn't charge people who ask to be "treated", and that's a first for me. So I'm very curious about the whole thing.

http://www.charliegoldsmith.com/

I think you may be underestimating the magnitude of the placebo effect (especially in combination with other deceptive trickery).

 

[Beer With Straw]

I read this on another board: " Charlie healed a guy tonight that had a brain tumor removed and then lost his sense of smell. And he did it over the phone! His sense of smell came back immediately. Simply amazing... ".

I think it's called "anosmia" and it can came back gradually in like 3 years or something.

Never saw the show itself.

 

[Angry Floof]

Derren Brown has a lot to say about this sort of thing, including demonstrations.

 

[Patooka]

If this was even remotely legitimate, A Current Affair or Today Tonight would have done a puff piece about it already. Instead the first time I'm hearing this is from the same producers who gave us Keeping up with the Kardashians. Is there a word that describes equal parts sceptical and dismissive, because that is my sentiment about this.

 

[Thomas II]

Bilby, so you have not seen the videos I have seen? I thought you had...Then what's the point? I'm talking about this specific case. Not any other! Watch the videos, then we can talk better, because at the moment you have no idea what I'm talking about. And again, I don't know what Charlie is doing, so I'm going with what people are reporting. But hey, everything could be a fraud and they're all lying to us, and the doctors and their patients are all conspiring in the lie.
All I'm saying that THIS particular case deserves more scrutiny because there seems to be something interesting going on according to what you can see in the videos.
If it's bullshit then it's like all the others, but my suggestion is to give this particular guy a good scientific study and THEN come up with a conclusion based on something tangible. Apparently he is very willing to do that research...

 

[Thomas II]

If this was even remotely legitimate, A Current Affair or Today Tonight would have done a puff piece about it already. Instead the first time I'm hearing this is from the same producers who gave us Keeping up with the Kardashians. Is there a word that describes equal parts sceptical and dismissive, because that is my sentiment about this.

I would dismiss it the same way if it weren't for the videos I've seen. IF they are not faking it, this is interesting.

http://www.charliegoldsmith.com/studies/2015/9/1/feasibility-of-energy-medicine-in-a-community-teaching-hospital-an-exploratory-case-series

http://www.charliegoldsmith.com/media/

 

[beero1000]

He claims to be able to cure bacterial and viral infections. That's TESTABLE - repeatedly, quantitatively, quickly, and objectively. There have been no papers in Nature or Science (that I'm aware of) showing that he's able to do this.

His linked "study" is from 2015 in the "Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine" and has been cited... 0 times. Instead of testing his claim of curing infection, they do a 'case study' on subjective pain relief.

Fraud.

 

[bilby]

Bilby, so you have not seen the videos I have seen? I thought you had...Then what's the point? I'm talking about this specific case. Not any other! Watch the videos, then we can talk better, because at the moment you have no idea what I'm talking about.

No, I haven't seen those videos; And I don't need to, because I have read the man's webpage, and the 'published paper' he links to thereon.

And again, I don't know what Charlie is doing, so I'm going with what people are reporting. But hey, everything could be a fraud and they're all lying to us, and the doctors and their patients are all conspiring in the lie.

It's quite likely that many of them actually believe. But belief and anecdote do not a scientific finding make.

All I'm saying that THIS particular case deserves more scrutiny because there seems to be something interesting going on according to what you can see in the videos.

You are incorrect; And I can say that with 100% confidence, despite not having wasted my time on seen the videos, because impossible things don't become possible when people make videos about them.

Phenomena in reality don't occur in a vacuum of ideas; they occur in the context of all the other phenomena of the real world, and they must conform to the same fundamental rules. If they don't, then we cannot know anything - and the very existence of technology demonstrates that this is not the case.

If it's bullshit then it's like all the others, but my suggestion is to give this particular guy a good scientific study and THEN come up with a conclusion based on something tangible. Apparently he is very willing to do that research...

His choice of publisher is sufficient evidence that he has very little understanding of what research actually entails. Or, perhaps more likely, that he relies upon people like yourself to have very little understanding of that.

 

[Thomas II]

No, I haven't seen those videos;

Ok, bilby. So noted that your guess is that he's a fraud.

Has anyone else seen the videos, or am I the only one here who has watched the show?

 

[bilby]

No, I haven't seen those videos;

Ok, bilby. So noted that your guess is that he's a fraud.

Has anyone else seen the videos, or am I the only one here to have watched the show?

Not a guess; A logical deduction, based on his claims in his "paper" and on his website, plus my knowledge and understanding of basic science.

The guy remains a fraud regardless of how convincing or personable you think he is in his videos; regardless of how impressed anyone else might be by his purported feats; and regardless of what new evidence he presents. Further video anecdotes cannot possibly change the simple and easily deduced fact that he is full of shit, and it would be a waste of my time to watch these.

Your "argument" is equivalent to telling someone who has read Genesis and worked out that it cannot possibly describe reality that he is only guessing that The Bible is not a perfect and infallible guide to reality, because he can't know that unless he reads Deuteronomy.

It's not necessary to study everything produced by a bullshitter in order to know that they are bullshitting; Once they have demonstrated that they have zero connection with reality, it's game over.

Your grasp of epistemology here is worryingly poor. Guessing is no more a route to the truth than is watching video of people being impressed by a convincing fraudster.

 

[Thomas II]

No, I haven't seen those videos;

Ok, bilby. So noted that your guess is that he's a fraud.

Has anyone else seen the videos, or am I the only one here to have watched the show?

Not a guess; A logical deduction, based on his claims in his "paper" and on his website, plus my knowledge and understanding of basic science.

The guy remains a fraud regardless of how convincing or personable you think he is in his videos; regardless of how impressed anyone else might be by his purported feats; and regardless of what new evidence he presents. Further video anecdotes cannot possibly change the simple and easily deduced fact that he is full of shit, and it would be a waste of my time to watch these.

Your "argument" is equivalent to telling someone who has read Genesis and worked out that it cannot possibly describe reality that he is only guessing that The Bible is not a perfect and infallible guide to reality, because he can't know that unless he reads Deuteronomy.

It's not necessary to study everything produced by a bullshitter in order to know that they are bullshitting; Once they have demonstrated that they have zero connection with reality, it's game over.

Your grasp of epistemology here is worryingly poor. Guessing is no more a route to the truth than is watching video of people being impressed by a convincing fraudster.

Bilby, you haven't seen the videos.

 

[bilby]

Not a guess; A logical deduction, based on his claims in his "paper" and on his website, plus my knowledge and understanding of basic science.

The guy remains a fraud regardless of how convincing or personable you think he is in his videos; regardless of how impressed anyone else might be by his purported feats; and regardless of what new evidence he presents. Further video anecdotes cannot possibly change the simple and easily deduced fact that he is full of shit, and it would be a waste of my time to watch these.

Your "argument" is equivalent to telling someone who has read Genesis and worked out that it cannot possibly describe reality that he is only guessing that The Bible is not a perfect and infallible guide to reality, because he can't know that unless he reads Deuteronomy.

It's not necessary to study everything produced by a bullshitter in order to know that they are bullshitting; Once they have demonstrated that they have zero connection with reality, it's game over.

Your grasp of epistemology here is worryingly poor. Guessing is no more a route to the truth than is watching video of people being impressed by a convincing fraudster.

Bilby, you haven't seen the videos.

I am fully aware of this. What do they say that could possibly render all of modern science obsolete?