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TV Show "The Healer" (TLC Channel)

No, I haven't seen those videos;

Ok, bilby. So noted that your guess is that he's a fraud.

Has anyone else seen the videos, or am I the only one here who has watched the show?
I understand where you are coming from, but honestly, asking a person to watch for something based on science on TLC is like linking to a YouTube video about how 9/11 was an inside job. If this guy were legit, the first time we heard of him wouldn't be through TLC.

Much like with 9/11 CTs, after a while it gets old to debunk scams. If he can cure something testable, he needs to prove it. The FDA doesn't do testing to disprove the viability of a drug, the drug maker needs to prove it works.

I know, Jimmy, but this is what's available about Charlie Goldsmith at this point...:shrug:

I've been saying all along that this guy should be tested to prove or disprove his abilities, and he seems to agree to the testing, so it's a matter of time. Eventually he is going to be proven, one way or another. He just called my attention because he doesn't charge for his "healing sessions".
That is certainly a first. I don't know the arrangement he has with TLC. Apparently he has other businesses not related to the "healing", and made millions with that.
 
Thomas, do you really think he has magic powers? That any positive result is something other than placebo or suggestion?
 
Thomas, do you really think he has magic powers? That any positive result is something other than placebo or suggestion?

Blastula,

Magic? None whatsoever! :D

Also nothing supernatural! Did not even cross my mind.

If its real it would have to be physical and measurable. He (Charlie) mentioned somewhere that he felt something like a "polarity" in his hands, like a magnet effect. We are talking about physical stuff. I have not heard him say anything related to magic or supernatural stuff so far. If he did, that would be my cue to say "bullshit" , but honestly I haven't heard him say anything like that so far...

But something happened there, either placebo, suggestion, hypnosis, I have no idea what could be. But people reacted in such a way that called my attention.
What can I say? I could not see any tricks myself, at least not in the videos I've seen...:shrug:
 
But that's the thing, there is no other possible physical mechanism than placebo/suggestion.
 
But that's the thing, there is no other possible physical mechanism than placebo/suggestion.

B, I don't know, and apparently Charlie doesn't know either how it works, and yet the "patients" report drastic positive changes...Somewhere there I'm baffled by the whole thing...How are these people reporting such positive things? It doesn't make any logical sense...
 
But that's the thing, there is no other possible physical mechanism than placebo/suggestion.

B, I don't know, and apparently Charlie doesn't know either how it works, and yet the "patients" report drastic positive changes...Somewhere there I'm baffled by the whole thing...How are these people reporting such positive things? It doesn't make any logical sense...
Plenty of options:

1) Lying to themselves
2) Lying to the public
3) Short term placebo benefit reported, issue then comes back up unreported
 
But that's the thing, there is no other possible physical mechanism than placebo/suggestion.

B, I don't know, and apparently Charlie doesn't know either how it works, and yet the "patients" report drastic positive changes...Somewhere there I'm baffled by the whole thing...How are these people reporting such positive things? It doesn't make any logical sense...
Plenty of options:

1) Lying to themselves
2) Lying to the public
3) Short term placebo benefit reported, issue then comes back up unreported

Hmm...I couldn't tell about 1 and 2. The 3rd one...could be, that's why I questioned before if there was any report on the actual status of their "healing", comparing how they felt after they saw Charlie, as opposed to how they feel now. All I heard is that things seemed ok a week or two after. Nothing negative...
 
Plenty of options:

1) Lying to themselves
2) Lying to the public
3) Short term placebo benefit reported, issue then comes back up unreported

Hmm...I couldn't tell about 1 and 2. The 3rd one...could be, that's why I questioned before if there was any report on the actual status of their "healing", comparing how they felt after they saw Charlie, as opposed to how they feel now. All I heard is that things seemed ok a week or two after. Nothing negative...


This is as stated in other posts either suggestion/placebo/mind over matter technique engaged or they are under or not reporting the reccurence of their issues, or possibly lying to themselves and others. There was a news report a couple years back I watched where a surgeon and nutritionist claimed he found the "easier treatment" for people being overweight. His treatment?

He sewed a rough piece of cloth onto their tongues in a 20 min outpatient procedure. And then he altered their diet and exercise habits with a 6 week follow up plan. The supposed result claimed in the rather short paper he wrote but had trouble publishing except for in less than credible magazines?

He stated he did not know how it helped his patients, by it he meant the cloth, jut that it simply did. His patients? All they had to say was glowing responses about how it worked almost like magic to get the last 20 or so pounds off and it was all they had hoped for and wanted. Sure, with changing the texture and taste of food that is hitting a damaged tongue people will automatically eat less. Sure changing diet to include healthier foods and in moderation will help people to lose weight. Sure exercise added in will help tone an shape muscles and fat tissue and work to allow a person to get closer to internal homeostasis with regard to their metabolism.


NONE of that means anything to this one doctor's claim that having people elect to have a cloth sewn on their tongue has any credence in terms of evidence that even if it were the deciding factor that once taken off, as this is not meant to be a permanent procedure, the increased health an metabolism will hold out. A couple of months later each person who undertook the surgery had gained it all back, no surprise there.

So in essence, TLCs story on this so called Healer has no more bearing in showing some new, workable solution to a problem humans face than with the nutritionist surgeon who sewed mesh cloths to people's tongues in a sham of a study that proved nothing about what was being tested.

Seriously, just think for a few moments about what sort of info would need to be there, what is not there, and how slanting it with personal testimonials makes it no more a verifiable point of fact than when people say that a laying of hands healed them. And yes I understand he never "said" anything about anything supernatural r religious or otherworldy about the process. He also stated he doesn't know how it works or really what it even truly does because he cant track what elements of the internal tissue it even really affects if it has any at all, just a vague sense of less pain.

This is almost text book placebo/mind over matter principle at work as far a what is shown. Could there be more to the story? Maybe. Is it important enough to find out? Not based on what that guy and TLC together presented, no.
 
But that's the thing, there is no other possible physical mechanism than placebo/suggestion.

B, I don't know, and apparently Charlie doesn't know either how it works, and yet the "patients" report drastic positive changes...Somewhere there I'm baffled by the whole thing...How are these people reporting such positive things? It doesn't make any logical sense...

This is why we have the scientific method. Science is an all round pain in the backside - it's often expensive, it's frequently difficult, and it's very tempting to cut corners, and to treat anecdotes or poorly designed studies as though they might be producing useful information - But they do not, and they cannot.

As Richard Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."

The rest of humanity comes a close second. It's very easy for a sick person to feel better, not due to effective treatment, but due to the placebo effect, suggestion, anticipation, and/or simple shifts of attention. Lying in a hospital bed, with nothing to do but suffer, pain can seem vastly worse than when lying in the same bed, interacting with an interesting and charismatic person. So people probably do genuinely feel better when this guy is around.

But if we are to claim that he is doing something more effective than just chatting to bored patients, then that thing must be testable and repeatable in properly blinded and controlled trials - because if it isn't, then it doesn't really exist. Science is the only way we have of finding out true things about reality - and human beings are very bad at it. We take lots of mental shortcuts, which, while they were effective for survival as a hunter-gatherer, are totally ineffective when trying to determine in detail how reality works. It turns out that reality is very counterintuitive; The real world is not much like we tend to assume it to be. Such non-obvious truths as 'The world is roughly spherical, and is not flat', or 'velocities can't be combined by simple arithmetic addition', can only be discovered by diligent application of the scientific method.

Testimonials are, despite their popularity, NOT an indicator of the reality of the phenomenon being attested to. Belief (no matter how strongly held, or widespread) is not evidence of truth. Seven billion people CAN be wrong, and frequently are.

Charlie doesn't know how it works; and if he can't replicate the effect in controlled, blinded trials, or hasn't done so YET, then he has got exactly bupkis. There's literally nothing to see here, until and unless he produces properly reviewed results from a properly designed trial - and those results have been repeated by others.

That's how we know what works for pain relief. We don't hand out Tylenol to a pre-selected, non-random group of patients, and then ask them how they feel, and when they say "much better, thank you" declare that Tylenol is effective at relieving pain. We don't then write articles with glowing praise from patients who took Tylenol, in which they are effusive about how wonderful it is. Doing those things would not tell us ANYTHING about whether or not Tylenol actually works.

Instead, we make fake tablets with no acetaminophen in them; and randomly provide either the real or the fake pills to each patient in our study, and ask how they feel. Only after the results are recorded do we let anyone (patient or researcher) know which patients got the real drug - and if the patients in that group reported better results than the ones who got the fakes, then (and ONLY then) we can say that Tylenol probably has analgesic effects.

Now that kind of double-blind controlled trial is a bit more difficult to set up than the simple collection of testimonials; But it's not impossible, nor particularly difficult, and it's routinely done in hospitals all over the world. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to design such a trial for this claimed effect - all you need to do is hire an actor who has no "healing" abilities, and have him exactly mimic what Charlie does; Then assign patients randomly to be "treated" by the "healer" or the actor - tabulate the results, and see if the healer performs significantly better than the actor who has no healing powers.

Why hasn't this been done?

Until it is, the rules of science say that we must reject the claims made by Charlie (no matter how much he or anyone else believes them to be true). So it's in his interest to get this done. And, indeed, the ethical rule is that he needs to do this FIRST, before "treating" (or attempting to treat) patients with his untested method.

So what he is doing is ethically wrong, and scientifically wrong. It's unethical for him to claim that he can do something to help sick people, unless and until he can PROVE (not hint at, not persuade people to believe, not believe in himself, but PROVE) that he actually does have a bigger effect than any random dude showing up and having the same chat with the patients.

It is even more unethical for him to use patients to promote his "ability" on a TV show, before he has done the simple things needed to PROVE that the purported ability really exists. He says that he doesn't charge for his services - which he (and you) hold up as some kind of virtue. But morally, he shouldn't even DREAM of charging for any service until he has demonstrated that it actually exists; So his failure to charge a fee is not a virtue - it's the bare minimum human decency demands of him. He is already behaving unethically, before we even consider whether he charges a fee for doing whatever it is he does. And 'not charging a fee' is not the same thing as 'not accepting donations', nor is it the same thing as 'not profiting from his activities' - the TLC presumably don't expect him to star in their show without being paid.

Establishing fake virtue by not billing patients (but accepting donations if they are happy with the outcomes) is an old established con - it makes it very hard for the authorities to prove fraud, and it has surprisingly little impact on the total income that can be derived from the scam (there's another of those counterintuitive realities). After all, with no overheads (he doesn't even need to buy any snake-oil), the worst he can do is earn $0, so he has nothing to lose. Every cent you gain from doing nothing, is a cent you didn't have to sweat to earn. This kind of scam is largely a popularity contest - you want to keep the testimonials flowing, to build up a reputation that makes people believe in you, and never sending out invoices is a great method for achieving that.

There is nothing baffling about patients believing that there is an effect where in fact none (beyond the well known placebo effect) is present. It's a well understood and historically commonplace human cognitive failure; People are SHIT at assessing the truth value of claims, even those that relate to their own personal experiences - and as Feynman points out, that is why we need the scientific method. Because without it, we cannot spot the difference between reality and fakery; or between truth and fiction.

"Nobody knows how it works" is not reassuring; It's the 21st Century, and we have found the Higgs Boson. We know how almost everything works, and we rely on that knowledge to underpin all of the infrastructure and technology of the modern world. A phenomenon without even a hint of an explanation is a HUGE red flag - There's no excuse for the mechanism of action for any real phenomenon to be completely mysterious. The most parsimonious explanation for why nobody knows how it works is that it simply doesn't work at all.

Right now, we have a bunch of people who believe, but cannot prove, that Charlie has an effect that we have no hard evidence for, with an unknown mechanism of action. That's a very long-winded way to say 'we've got nothing'.
 
it was entertaining for a few minutes that I saw
 
Somehow I get the feeling that if someone was actually able to heal people like that, I wouldn't be hearing about it for the first time in the trailer for his TLC reality show.

Ding!

I stopped watching TLC when they stopped showing documentaries.
 
But that's the thing, there is no other possible physical mechanism than placebo/suggestion.

B, I don't know, and apparently Charlie doesn't know either how it works, and yet the "patients" report drastic positive changes...Somewhere there I'm baffled by the whole thing...How are these people reporting such positive things? It doesn't make any logical sense...

This is why we have the scientific method. Science is an all round pain in the backside - it's often expensive, it's frequently difficult, and it's very tempting to cut corners, and to treat anecdotes or poorly designed studies as though they might be producing useful information - But they do not, and they cannot.

As Richard Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."

The rest of humanity comes a close second. It's very easy for a sick person to feel better, not due to effective treatment, but due to the placebo effect, suggestion, anticipation, and/or simple shifts of attention. Lying in a hospital bed, with nothing to do but suffer, pain can seem vastly worse than when lying in the same bed, interacting with an interesting and charismatic person. So people probably do genuinely feel better when this guy is around.

But if we are to claim that he is doing something more effective than just chatting to bored patients, then that thing must be testable and repeatable in properly blinded and controlled trials - because if it isn't, then it doesn't really exist. Science is the only way we have of finding out true things about reality - and human beings are very bad at it. We take lots of mental shortcuts, which, while they were effective for survival as a hunter-gatherer, are totally ineffective when trying to determine in detail how reality works. It turns out that reality is very counterintuitive; The real world is not much like we tend to assume it to be. Such non-obvious truths as 'The world is roughly spherical, and is not flat', or 'velocities can't be combined by simple arithmetic addition', can only be discovered by diligent application of the scientific method.

Testimonials are, despite their popularity, NOT an indicator of the reality of the phenomenon being attested to. Belief (no matter how strongly held, or widespread) is not evidence of truth. Seven billion people CAN be wrong, and frequently are.

Charlie doesn't know how it works; and if he can't replicate the effect in controlled, blinded trials, or hasn't done so YET, then he has got exactly bupkis. There's literally nothing to see here, until and unless he produces properly reviewed results from a properly designed trial - and those results have been repeated by others.

That's how we know what works for pain relief. We don't hand out Tylenol to a pre-selected, non-random group of patients, and then ask them how they feel, and when they say "much better, thank you" declare that Tylenol is effective at relieving pain. We don't then write articles with glowing praise from patients who took Tylenol, in which they are effusive about how wonderful it is. Doing those things would not tell us ANYTHING about whether or not Tylenol actually works.

Instead, we make fake tablets with no acetaminophen in them; and randomly provide either the real or the fake pills to each patient in our study, and ask how they feel. Only after the results are recorded do we let anyone (patient or researcher) know which patients got the real drug - and if the patients in that group reported better results than the ones who got the fakes, then (and ONLY then) we can say that Tylenol probably has analgesic effects.

Now that kind of double-blind controlled trial is a bit more difficult to set up than the simple collection of testimonials; But it's not impossible, nor particularly difficult, and it's routinely done in hospitals all over the world. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to design such a trial for this claimed effect - all you need to do is hire an actor who has no "healing" abilities, and have him exactly mimic what Charlie does; Then assign patients randomly to be "treated" by the "healer" or the actor - tabulate the results, and see if the healer performs significantly better than the actor who has no healing powers.

Why hasn't this been done?

Until it is, the rules of science say that we must reject the claims made by Charlie (no matter how much he or anyone else believes them to be true). So it's in his interest to get this done. And, indeed, the ethical rule is that he needs to do this FIRST, before "treating" (or attempting to treat) patients with his untested method.

So what he is doing is ethically wrong, and scientifically wrong. It's unethical for him to claim that he can do something to help sick people, unless and until he can PROVE (not hint at, not persuade people to believe, not believe in himself, but PROVE) that he actually does have a bigger effect than any random dude showing up and having the same chat with the patients.

It is even more unethical for him to use patients to promote his "ability" on a TV show, before he has done the simple things needed to PROVE that the purported ability really exists. He says that he doesn't charge for his services - which he (and you) hold up as some kind of virtue. But morally, he shouldn't even DREAM of charging for any service until he has demonstrated that it actually exists; So his failure to charge a fee is not a virtue - it's the bare minimum human decency demands of him. He is already behaving unethically, before we even consider whether he charges a fee for doing whatever it is he does. And 'not charging a fee' is not the same thing as 'not accepting donations', nor is it the same thing as 'not profiting from his activities' - the TLC presumably don't expect him to star in their show without being paid.

Establishing fake virtue by not billing patients (but accepting donations if they are happy with the outcomes) is an old established con - it makes it very hard for the authorities to prove fraud, and it has surprisingly little impact on the total income that can be derived from the scam (there's another of those counterintuitive realities). After all, with no overheads (he doesn't even need to buy any snake-oil), the worst he can do is earn $0, so he has nothing to lose. Every cent you gain from doing nothing, is a cent you didn't have to sweat to earn. This kind of scam is largely a popularity contest - you want to keep the testimonials flowing, to build up a reputation that makes people believe in you, and never sending out invoices is a great method for achieving that.

There is nothing baffling about patients believing that there is an effect where in fact none (beyond the well known placebo effect) is present. It's a well understood and historically commonplace human cognitive failure; People are SHIT at assessing the truth value of claims, even those that relate to their own personal experiences - and as Feynman points out, that is why we need the scientific method. Because without it, we cannot spot the difference between reality and fakery; or between truth and fiction.

"Nobody knows how it works" is not reassuring; It's the 21st Century, and we have found the Higgs Boson. We know how almost everything works, and we rely on that knowledge to underpin all of the infrastructure and technology of the modern world. A phenomenon without even a hint of an explanation is a HUGE red flag - There's no excuse for the mechanism of action for any real phenomenon to be completely mysterious. The most parsimonious explanation for why nobody knows how it works is that it simply doesn't work at all.

Right now, we have a bunch of people who believe, but cannot prove, that Charlie has an effect that we have no hard evidence for, with an unknown mechanism of action. That's a very long-winded way to say 'we've got nothing'.

Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.
 
Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.

Why do you think that Charlie Goldsmith deserves scientific scrutiny? What makes his claims more credible or interesting than the legion of "healers" who have come before him?
 
Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.

Why do you think that Charlie Goldsmith deserves scientific scrutiny? What makes his claims more credible or interesting than the legion of "healers" who have come before him?

Any "healer" that would benefit from selling his/her "abilities" to the public, should be subjected to scientific scrutiny, and pay for the cost of the study as well.

And with that I'm done talking about Charlie until he does his double blind study. We'll post the results here if they ever get published.

Again, thanks all! :)
 
Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.
Just to make it clear, that should read "It should be in some way scientific." Allegedly part of a trial that'll some day be used in a double blind?! WTF?!
 
Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.
Just to make it clear, that should read "It should be in some way scientific." Allegedly part of a trial that'll some day be used in a double blind?! WTF?!

Yes to scientific!

:hallo:
 
Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.

Why do you think that Charlie Goldsmith deserves scientific scrutiny? What makes his claims more credible or interesting than the legion of "healers" who have come before him?

Any "healer" that would benefit from selling his/her "abilities" to the public, should be subjected to scientific scrutiny, and pay for the cost of the study as well.

Hell will freeze over before any "healer" sabotages his highly profitable gimmick with a scientific study, let alone one he pays for. It's a well-established pattern.

A skeptic should have the sense to recognise this and dismiss these miracle healers out of hand. There have been so many at this point in time that they provide no interest other than case studies in the gullibility of the public and the media.
 
Bilby, excellent commentary! I see your point, really I do. I would be happy to see a double blind study performed, the sooner the better, no doubt about that. In fact my son and I were talking about that double blind study over dinner, with "fake healer" and all, so don't think that I'm opposed to what you're saying.
I should be more scientific, I agree.

Why do you think that Charlie Goldsmith deserves scientific scrutiny? What makes his claims more credible or interesting than the legion of "healers" who have come before him?

Any "healer" that would benefit from selling his/her "abilities" to the public, should be subjected to scientific scrutiny, and pay for the cost of the study as well.

And with that I'm done talking about Charlie until he does his double blind study. We'll post the results here if they ever get published.
I'm with bigfield on this one - I strongly advise against holding your breath.
Again, thanks all! :)

You are most welcome!
 
Goldsmith claims to heal "a lot of people". How? Well, he has a gift. A polarity he feels in his hands. Evidence? An article about his healing powers in The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. What is alternative and complementary medicine? That would be stuff like homeopathy, integrated oncology, iridology, reiki and apparently "energy healing". You know, the sort of practices for which no blind, let alone double-blind surveys with control groups have ever been published that concluded with a statistically significant positive result.

So, what is energy healing? Seems like a synonym for "faith healing" to me. The name change brings to mind, or it should, the occasion when creationism was renamed "intelligent design" - an attempt to revive utter bullshit through rebadging.

Luckily for the likes of Goldsmith there's one born every minute.
 
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