UK Labour party can't say what a woman is.

[JohnG]

So you instead you get to impose your ideology on others.

What ideology is involved in acknowledging that humans have two sex classes, as do all mammals?

If that’s how you want to look at it, fine. You can either respect someone’s pronouns or ask if you can look down the front of their pants to make sure you got it right.

Why is this a problem for people?

Do you genuinely think that parroting this false line that nobody can tell another person's sex is effective? From about the age of six on, humans are incredibly effective at accurately sexing adult humans. Women are more effective at it than men - it's in the interest of prey to be able to accurately identify their predators.

People mistake other people genders. Sex workers have been murdered over it.

Is it pro-nouns that bother you? Why must we define sexuality in such a compartmentalized way? It's clearly nuanced. Did you not know any effeminate males in school?

Honestly I don't know the answer to the issue of sports, I haven't thought about it enough or sought out enough perspectives to form a well researched opinion - but don't think it's reasonable to disqualify an entire swath of the population (their identity) over it.

 

[Metaphor]

It was you who said it wasn't safe.

No, I didn't. I said that spaces were sometimes separated by sex for the physical safety and psychological comfort of women. It's why prisons are (or at least were) separated by sex. Sometimes things are segregated by sex because it would be unfair for women to compete with men (this is usually the case in sports rather than other fields). Sometimes things are separated by sex and it is not for women's (or men's) benefit, but just because that's how it evolved.

I'm not putting words into your mouth. I can tell by the use of your term "gender cultists" that you feel you are taking some superior position here and that slogan somehow elevates your opinion.

Is your argument about bathrooms and sports?

My argument is that if you have spaces separated by sex, separate them by sex. Don't substitute 'gender' for 'sex' and pretend they are the same thing.

 

[Metaphor]

People mistake other people genders. Sex workers have been murdered over it.

The 'trans murder epidemic' is an unsubstantiated claim made by gender cultists to shut other people up.

Also, no sex worker has ever been murdered over their gender. Not once, not ever. A sex worker might have been murdered by a client if the client thought the sex worker was one sex but they turned out to be the other, but this again is part of the 'trans murder epidemic' story that is entirely unsubstantiated.

Is it pro-nouns that bother you? Why must we define sexuality in such a compartmentalized way? It's clearly nuanced. Did you not know any effeminate males in school?

You asked this of Emily and not me, but I will answer with my experience.

Not only did I know the effeminate males at school, I was one of them. Nobody that I knew in high school, including in my friend group, was 'out', but it just happened to turn out that my friend group turned out to have three homos and two bisexuals.

But not any one of us claimed to be a sex we were not. We were effeminate gayboys. We were not and are not and cannot become women.

Honestly I don't know the answer to the issue of sports, I haven't thought about it enough or sought out enough perspectives to form a well researched opinion - but don't think it's reasonable to disqualify an entire swath of the population (their identity) over it.

Nobody is being disqualified. Trans women simply must compete in the proper sex class for them: they are males and they must compete with other males. They can never not be males; mammals cannot change their sex.

Trans men who are not taking testosterone (a performance enhancing drug) are free to compete in either sex class (as indeed any woman ought be free if she can compete).

 

[JohnG]

People mistake other people genders. Sex workers have been murdered over it.

The 'trans murder epidemic' is an unsubstantiated claim made by gender cultists to shut other people up.

Also, no sex worker has ever been murdered over their gender. Not once, not ever. A sex worker might have been murdered by a client if the client thought the sex worker was one sex but they turned out to be the other, but this again is part of the 'trans murder epidemic' story that is entirely unsubstantiated.

Is it pro-nouns that bother you? Why must we define sexuality in such a compartmentalized way? It's clearly nuanced. Did you not know any effeminate males in school?

You asked this of Emily and not me, but I will answer with my experience.

Not only did I know the effeminate males at school, I was one of them. Nobody that I knew in high school, including in my friend group, was 'out', but it just happened to turn out that my friend group turned out to have three homos and two bisexuals.

But not any one of us claimed to be a sex we were not. We were effeminate gayboys. We were not and are not and cannot become women.

Honestly I don't know the answer to the issue of sports, I haven't thought about it enough or sought out enough perspectives to form a well researched opinion - but don't think it's reasonable to disqualify an entire swath of the population (their identity) over it.

Nobody is being disqualified. Trans women simply must compete in the proper sex class for them: they are males and they must compete with other males. They can never not be males; mammals cannot change their sex.

Trans men who are not taking testosterone (a performance enhancing drug) are free to compete in either sex class (as indeed any woman ought be free if she can compete).

I gotta say, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously with the "gender cultists" thing. It doesn't even make sense to the discussion.

I'm not saying there is an epidemic of trans murders, but they do happen and there is certainly people who mistake others gender. I know of the studies that show people are excellent at determining gender, but the same studies show when the usual cues are blurred there can be confusion.

Do you think it's ok to treat a man, who identifies as a women, as a women in a regular social setting?

 

[Metaphor]

People mistake other people genders. Sex workers have been murdered over it.

The 'trans murder epidemic' is an unsubstantiated claim made by gender cultists to shut other people up.

Also, no sex worker has ever been murdered over their gender. Not once, not ever. A sex worker might have been murdered by a client if the client thought the sex worker was one sex but they turned out to be the other, but this again is part of the 'trans murder epidemic' story that is entirely unsubstantiated.

Is it pro-nouns that bother you? Why must we define sexuality in such a compartmentalized way? It's clearly nuanced. Did you not know any effeminate males in school?

You asked this of Emily and not me, but I will answer with my experience.

Not only did I know the effeminate males at school, I was one of them. Nobody that I knew in high school, including in my friend group, was 'out', but it just happened to turn out that my friend group turned out to have three homos and two bisexuals.

But not any one of us claimed to be a sex we were not. We were effeminate gayboys. We were not and are not and cannot become women.

Honestly I don't know the answer to the issue of sports, I haven't thought about it enough or sought out enough perspectives to form a well researched opinion - but don't think it's reasonable to disqualify an entire swath of the population (their identity) over it.

Nobody is being disqualified. Trans women simply must compete in the proper sex class for them: they are males and they must compete with other males. They can never not be males; mammals cannot change their sex.

Trans men who are not taking testosterone (a performance enhancing drug) are free to compete in either sex class (as indeed any woman ought be free if she can compete).

I gotta say, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously with the "gender cultists" thing. It doesn't even make sense to the discussion.

I'm not saying there is an epidemic of trans murders, but they do happen and there is certainly people who mistake others gender. I know of the studies that show people are excellent at determining gender, but the same studies show when the usual cues are blurred there can be confusion.

I assume above when you say 'gender', you mean 'sex'. People are good at determining the sex of others during brief social encounters, despite the gender cultist insistence that the only way to know somebody's sex is to 'look in their pants'. Gender cultists are obsessed with genitals and will bring them up at any opportunity.

Do you think it's ok to treat a man, who identifies as a women, as a women in a regular social setting?

I'm not sure what you have in mind here. I generally treat men and women similarly in 'regular' social settings. What do you mean more specifically? I generally expect more of males in terms of physical strength, so I'd expect men to help move a couch but not women, though that hardly counts as social.

 

[Bomb#20]

It's easy to define a legal term for "exposed to testosterone", and a legal term for "not exposed to testosterone", and "only exposed to a little testosterone" and "hasn't been exposed to testosterone for °°° years".

These can be meaningful delineations in certain legally important contexts.

Steroidal discrimination, I have no problem with as regards prison populations and sports teams.

That's a perfectly coherent and workable approach to take on the issue, if your intention is to utterly screw over people with androgen insensitivity.

 

[Elixir]

Spoken like a true gender cultist.

If I ever need to know what a true gender cultist sounds like, I now know who to ask.

You don't need to ask yourself verbally, darling! You can use your mental voice!

I need no voice whatsoever to hear the caterwauling of our very own gender kult kaptain. You know - one who keeps starting threads to air his own gender dysphoria and rail against those who don’t share his sexual insecurity.

Carry on, Kaptain!

 

[JohnG]

People mistake other people genders. Sex workers have been murdered over it.

The 'trans murder epidemic' is an unsubstantiated claim made by gender cultists to shut other people up.

Also, no sex worker has ever been murdered over their gender. Not once, not ever. A sex worker might have been murdered by a client if the client thought the sex worker was one sex but they turned out to be the other, but this again is part of the 'trans murder epidemic' story that is entirely unsubstantiated.

Is it pro-nouns that bother you? Why must we define sexuality in such a compartmentalized way? It's clearly nuanced. Did you not know any effeminate males in school?

You asked this of Emily and not me, but I will answer with my experience.

Not only did I know the effeminate males at school, I was one of them. Nobody that I knew in high school, including in my friend group, was 'out', but it just happened to turn out that my friend group turned out to have three homos and two bisexuals.

But not any one of us claimed to be a sex we were not. We were effeminate gayboys. We were not and are not and cannot become women.

Honestly I don't know the answer to the issue of sports, I haven't thought about it enough or sought out enough perspectives to form a well researched opinion - but don't think it's reasonable to disqualify an entire swath of the population (their identity) over it.

Nobody is being disqualified. Trans women simply must compete in the proper sex class for them: they are males and they must compete with other males. They can never not be males; mammals cannot change their sex.

Trans men who are not taking testosterone (a performance enhancing drug) are free to compete in either sex class (as indeed any woman ought be free if she can compete).

I gotta say, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously with the "gender cultists" thing. It doesn't even make sense to the discussion.

I'm not saying there is an epidemic of trans murders, but they do happen and there is certainly people who mistake others gender. I know of the studies that show people are excellent at determining gender, but the same studies show when the usual cues are blurred there can be confusion.

I assume above when you say 'gender', you mean 'sex'. People are good at determining the sex of others during brief social encounters, despite the gender cultist insistence that the only way to know somebody's sex is to 'look in their pants'. Gender cultists are obsessed with genitals and will bring them up at any opportunity.

Do you think it's ok to treat a man, who identifies as a women, as a women in a regular social setting?

I'm not sure what you have in mind here. I generally treat men and women similarly in 'regular' social settings. What do you mean more specifically? I generally expect more of males in terms of physical strength, so I'd expect men to help move a couch but not women, though that hardly counts as social.

Do you call a person born as a male but who presents as a woman by their preferred pronoun?

Is a “gender cultist” a person who accepts the choice of others decide how they want to present socially?

 

[Metaphor]

You know - one who keeps starting threads to air his own gender dysphoria and rail against those who don’t share his sexual insecurity.

lol okay luv

 

[Elixir]

You know - one who keeps starting threads to air his own gender dysphoria and rail against those who don’t share his sexual insecurity.

lol okay luv

Such depth of thought is so ... unlike you ... Shirley you jest!

 

[laughing dog]

You know - one who keeps starting threads to air his own gender dysphoria and rail against those who don’t share his sexual insecurity.

lol okay luv

Acknowledgement of the issue is the first step towards recovery. Good luck.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know - one who keeps starting threads to air his own gender dysphoria and rail against those who don’t share his sexual insecurity.

lol okay luv

Dude, you post on this almost as much as lpetrich posts on AOC.

 

[Emily Lake]

I am sorry but I cannot see what you are complaining about.
If you insist on a distinction between female and woman (I assume that is what you accept) then you should not express surprise that some will use that as a cudgel with which to beat their opponents (real or imagined). It is hard enough as it is to focus on the very real problems that women face without adding an extra extravagant (I will say it out loud: un-necessary) avenue for dissipation of energy and focus.
In Australia for IWD we saw the same thing : transgender activists hijacked the whole day. I am very disappointed but not surprised.

I have confusion here.

In Australia, transgender activists hijacked the whole of IWD... but you cannot see why I, a woman, might complain about that?

I actually don't insist on a distinction between female and woman, to me a woman is an adult human female, just as a sow is an adult female pig and a mare is an adult female horse.

 

[Emily Lake]

Whatever that society views as feminine. I am not going down that rabbit hole.

Do you understand that by this view, and the wishy-washy way it gets sidestepped, you end up either:
a) excluding female humans from the term "woman" because they are butch or they object to the social constraints that have kept women as subjugated dependents for most of human history... or
b) granting the term "woman" to 6'4" penis-having sperminators with beards wearing Levi's and flannel shirts?

 

[Elixir]

So what?

 

[Emily Lake]

People mistake other people genders. Sex workers have been murdered over it.

Um yeah, think about that a moment. People's "genders" haven't been mistaken. People's sex has been mistaken... and usually because those people have taken intentional steps to mask their sex and trick people. Prostitutes shouldn't be murdered full stop. But it's also a bit daft to costume oneself as a female then take offense when the john is shocked to find a cock where they were expecting a vag.

I will further add that people who are not cosmetically altered are rarely mistaken as the opposite sex. Seriously, nobody every thought David Bowie or Boy George were female, no matter how much make-up they put on. Nobody ever thought Annie Lennox or Grace Jones were male, no matter how butch they dressed.

Is it pro-nouns that bother you? Why must we define sexuality in such a compartmentalized way? It's clearly nuanced. Did you not know any effeminate males in school?

Pronouns are not indicative of sexuality. Gender identity is not a sexuality.

I also find the implicit assumption that effeminate males are "less male" than masculine males to be incredibly regressive and sexist in nature.

Honestly I don't know the answer to the issue of sports, I haven't thought about it enough or sought out enough perspectives to form a well researched opinion - but don't think it's reasonable to disqualify an entire swath of the population (their identity) over it.

Yeah, nobody is being disqualified from sports. Males are being excluded from participating in Female sports leagues. This is how it has been since women and girls first managed to stand up their own leagues, and for very good reason. Males, regardless of how they identify, are still welcome to participate in male leagues.

What is actually happening is that women are objecting to males demanding the privilege of competing against females because they "feel" like a woman, and they believe that their internal feeling and desire for affirmation are more important than fairness and safety for women in sports.

 

[Emily Lake]

Nobody is being disqualified. Trans women simply must compete in the proper sex class for them: they are males and they must compete with other males. They can never not be males; mammals cannot change their sex.

Trans men who are not taking testosterone (a performance enhancing drug) are free to compete in either sex class (as indeed any woman ought be free if she can compete).

I'll piggy-back on this and point out the absolute and complete lack of any objection to that Quinn person remaining part of the women's soccer team (I think), regardless of them being openly transgender and non-binary. You know why? Because regardless of how they identify and present, they are still ***female*** and are not taking steroids, so they are welcome to continue participating on the women's team. Same with that Isaac person who is transgender and identifies as a man, but hasn't taken any hormone, and continues to compete on the women's swim team with zero objection from any of the female participants.

 

[Emily Lake]

I'm not saying there is an epidemic of trans murders, but they do happen and there is certainly people who mistake others gender. I know of the studies that show people are excellent at determining gender, but the same studies show when the usual cues are blurred there can be confusion.

SEX. People mistake the other person's SEX.

On the other hand, I will grant that people mistake the professed gender identity of other people all the goddamned time, because not a one of us has managed to evolve functioning ESP that can see into someone else's brain and determine what gender role they have the highest affinity for.

 

[Emily Lake]

So what?

Are you serious?

 

[Keith&Co.]

What we need here is a good Dad solution.
Any of the dads of my neighborhood growing up would have approached this sort of fight in the exact same way.
"What the hell's going on in here?!"
"He wants in my spaces!"
"I'm SHE so they're my spaces, too!"
"You're not a she!"
"You can't tell me what i am or amn't!"
"SHUDDUP BOTH OF YA! If you two can't figure this out, we'll just take spaces away, OKAY?"
"Dad, no..."
"Mr. Willis, we didn't want..."
"Nope. Too late. Now there are just bathrooms with urinals and bathrooms without. Got it!?!"
"....yessir...."
"Ya happy?"
".....not really..."
"Well, you had your chance. Now go change the signs on the bathrooms, locker rooms, gyms, saunas..."
"......yes, sir."