US President 2016 - the Great Horse Race

[funinspace]

Is there anyone else on this thread, or indeed upon this good Earth, that thinks calling an American White Supremacist a 'Nazi Sympathizer' is incorrect or somehow shifting goalposts?

No, because most American White Supremacists wouldn't consider Poles to be Untermenschen. The point being is that I think what you end up implying is that the two terms are at least nearly synonymous. I'm pretty sure I get your point, and even agree at a level. However, I think it over simplifies the evolution of Nazism within Germany and that it had more than one defining concept; and the conflation is quite inflammatory if not accompanies with a big paragraph explaining the similarities and the limits of the comparison.

It is kind of like how most all people who think public displays of the Confederate flag is cool, really aren't thinking we should go back to the 'good ol' days of actual slavery. They may be racist assholes, but really aren't studying books by George Fitzhugh.

 

[Tristan Scott]

Trump on the ozone....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiNpb2pmtbOAhVBWGMKHR7fDmYQtwIIKzAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DeU2p6YakNJg&usg=AFQjCNGOMZkrAGzo_uDCsLNoo1xPisUhTQ&sig2=htHYTZfAUErDRtKTBjr07w

 

[fast]

Nm

 

[angelo]

Racism is so foolish as scientific evidence has proven beyond any doubt that under the skin we are all equal. No one race is superior to another.

Internet killed sarcasm.

Funny you should bring that up seeing today is internet day.
Invented by the con artist responsible for "An Inconvenient Truth!"

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Polls continue to come in and one big question is, what the fuck is with the polls. Clinton just got a nod by Roanoke College of 16 pts in Virginia. Even if that poll is off by 10 points, she'd still be up by 6 pts! A democrat hasn't won a state like Virginia by 6 pts. This implies a blow out.

So it makes me wonder. Trump's main selling point is to Blue Collar workers. This doesn't play at all in a state like Virginia. It is the reason Ohio and Iowa appear to be close. But you take states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas where Trump is polling poorly (relative to Romney), and you wonder, how in the heck is he within 5 pts nationally.

So then I wonder about the blue states, where Clinton isn't exactly breaking records. Is the drop in her ratings in New York, New Jersey, California artificially causing Clinton's national numbers to be lower than they likely will be on election day? It seems to be the only thing that can explain Clinton cruising in Colorado and Virginia, yet only having a small 4 to 5 pt lead nationally.

 

[Funkytrip]

Racism is so foolish as scientific evidence has proven beyond any doubt that under the skin we are all equal. No one race is superior to another.

A dutch comedian once said "whether your black, red, brown or yellow, from the inside whe're all white"...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Polls continue to come in and one big question is, what the fuck is with the polls. Clinton just got a nod by Roanoke College of 16 pts in Virginia. Even if that poll is off by 10 points, she'd still be up by 6 pts! A democrat hasn't won a state like Virginia by 6 pts. This implies a blow out.

So it makes me wonder. Trump's main selling point is to Blue Collar workers. This doesn't play at all in a state like Virginia. It is the reason Ohio and Iowa appear to be close. But you take states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas where Trump is polling poorly (relative to Romney), and you wonder, how in the heck is he within 5 pts nationally.

So then I wonder about the blue states, where Clinton isn't exactly breaking records. Is the drop in her ratings in New York, New Jersey, California artificially causing Clinton's national numbers to be lower than they likely will be on election day? It seems to be the only thing that can explain Clinton cruising in Colorado and Virginia, yet only having a small 4 to 5 pt lead nationally.

It really does seem weird. Being down by only a few points makes the race seem close, but the state-by-state polls show a blowout of historic proportions. Maybe he's up by 50 points in Texas or Oklahoma or something.

 

[Sarpedon]

For the record: I am not asking if it is possible to be an american white supremacist and not be a nazi. I am not asking if american white supremacists believe everything that nazis did. I am asking whether it is fair to say that the culture of american white supremacists, as the movement exists, have been influenced to the point they (or at least most of them) can be called nazi sympathizers. I think the answer is obviously yes, and this sort of pussy-footing technical argument have been giving them cover for far too long, with obvious consequences.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

For the record: I am not asking if it is possible to be an american white supremacist and not be a nazi. I am not asking if american white supremacists believe everything that nazis did. I am asking whether it is fair to say that the culture of american white supremacists, as the movement exists, have been influenced to the point they (or at least most of them) can be called nazi sympathizers. I think the answer is obviously yes, and this sort of pussy-footing technical argument have been giving them cover for far too long, with obvious consequences.

I think that would be a fair statement. There is a reason that they're called neo-Nazis. The whole "supremacy of the white race" was one of the (if not the) core beliefs of the Nazis, which led to all the rest of their activities. So, the current white supremacists share the same core values as the Nazis and linking them together is a rational conclusion. That doesn't mean that they agree with everything that the Nazis did or even that they share the same definition of "white race" that the Nazis did, but there's enough overlap between their philosophies that it's correct to call one sympathizers of the other.

 

[funinspace]

You heard it from a Poe

Texas Rep. Ted Poe (who seems well named), really really thinks Trumph has a chance of breaking into the black vote.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/conte...government-dependence-so-shell-get-their-vote

“I believe that it is,” he said. “And he is exactly correct about that because of the facts that have come out, especially the last eight years, the number of people in the United States that are more and more dependent on the federal government. So I think that it will work, I really do believe that it will work and Democrats cannot just assume that minorities will vote for the Democrat Party this year because they’re actually evaluating the difference between the two."

More proof that the polls are skewed...and thankfully he also served in the Air Force reserves from 1970-76.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Polls continue to come in and one big question is, what the fuck is with the polls. Clinton just got a nod by Roanoke College of 16 pts in Virginia. Even if that poll is off by 10 points, she'd still be up by 6 pts! A democrat hasn't won a state like Virginia by 6 pts. This implies a blow out.

So it makes me wonder. Trump's main selling point is to Blue Collar workers. This doesn't play at all in a state like Virginia. It is the reason Ohio and Iowa appear to be close. But you take states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas where Trump is polling poorly (relative to Romney), and you wonder, how in the heck is he within 5 pts nationally.

So then I wonder about the blue states, where Clinton isn't exactly breaking records. Is the drop in her ratings in New York, New Jersey, California artificially causing Clinton's national numbers to be lower than they likely will be on election day? It seems to be the only thing that can explain Clinton cruising in Colorado and Virginia, yet only having a small 4 to 5 pt lead nationally.

It really does seem weird. Being down by only a few points makes the race seem close, but the state-by-state polls show a blowout of historic proportions. Maybe he's up by 50 points in Texas or Oklahoma or something.

Texas and Georgia are the biggies popular vote wise, and right now, Trump's lead in Texas would be about 600,000, which is well should of Romney's victory.

 

[Elixir]

Polls continue to come in and one big question is, what the fuck is with the polls. Clinton just got a nod by Roanoke College of 16 pts in Virginia. Even if that poll is off by 10 points, she'd still be up by 6 pts! A democrat hasn't won a state like Virginia by 6 pts. This implies a blow out.

So it makes me wonder. Trump's main selling point is to Blue Collar workers. This doesn't play at all in a state like Virginia. It is the reason Ohio and Iowa appear to be close. But you take states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas where Trump is polling poorly (relative to Romney), and you wonder, how in the heck is he within 5 pts nationally.

So then I wonder about the blue states, where Clinton isn't exactly breaking records. Is the drop in her ratings in New York, New Jersey, California artificially causing Clinton's national numbers to be lower than they likely will be on election day? It seems to be the only thing that can explain Clinton cruising in Colorado and Virginia, yet only having a small 4 to 5 pt lead nationally.

This is a couple of days old, but speaks to that:

National Polls Show The Race Tightening — But State Polls Don’t

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Is there anyone else on this thread, or indeed upon this good Earth, that thinks calling an American White Supremacist a 'Nazi Sympathizer' is incorrect or somehow shifting goalposts?

Is there anyone else on this thread, or indeed upon this good Earth, that thinks you are trying to get out of being called on conflating racists and Nazis?

Do you think all racists are Nazis or Nazi sympathizers?

At least this indicates that you've completely abandoned the absurd claim of Nazis at Libertarian conventions. Thank you for that much, which is what started this whole side discussion in the first place. You have basically admitted you were wrong so you are trying to change the subject from your initial point to this new one.

 

[Sarpedon]

No, I am not. I am saying a specific racist movement has been influenced by the nazis. There are many racist movements that have not. America's white supremecist movement is not one of them. There have been oodles of studies of the american white supremacist movement, and they provide ample evidence of this. By deliberately ignoring all the times I haves specifically explained what I am talking about, you are misrepresenting my argument.

I am absolutely incapable of dumbing it down any further for you.

The question is why are you trying to convince people that American White Supremecists aren't influenced by nazis? I earlier made an off the cuff remark about nazi sympathizers at the Libertarian convention, and now, instead of denying that there are white supremacists in the Libertarian party, you are trying to suggest that White Supremacists are not nazi sympathizers. Oughtn't you instead try to deny there were white supremacists at the Libertarian party convention?

 

[angelo]

If so called White supremecists are influenced by Nazis, who then are Islamic terrorists groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah influenced by if not by Nazism? Mein Kampf is still a best seller in Gaza and other Islamic States.

 

[J842P]

If so called White supremecists are influenced by Nazis, who then are Islamic terrorists groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah influenced by if not by Nazism? Mein Kampf is still a best seller in Gaza and other Islamic States.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? And, when you say "If so called White supremacists are influenced by Nazis" do you mean to imply that such groups don't exist, or that such groups aren't influenced by Nazis? Groups like The American Nazi Party, and the Aryan Nations, which are both overtly influenced by Nazism, at least in their racial theories and vocabulary. I'll grant that a lot of these "Christian Identity" movements really have little to do with Nazism as understood by Hitler, aside from the underlying White supremacy and some borrowing of terminology, but you have to at least admit that they are influenced by Nazism in the same sense that modern rock music is influenced by pre-50's rock-and-roll.

 

[J842P]

No, I am not. I am saying a specific racist movement has been influenced by the nazis. There are many racist movements that have not. America's white supremecist movement is not one of them. There have been oodles of studies of the american white supremacist movement, and they provide ample evidence of this. By deliberately ignoring all the times I haves specifically explained what I am talking about, you are misrepresenting my argument.

I am absolutely incapable of dumbing it down any further for you.

The question is why are you trying to convince people that American White Supremecists aren't influenced by nazis? I earlier made an off the cuff remark about nazi sympathizers at the Libertarian convention, and now, instead of denying that there are white supremacists in the Libertarian party, you are trying to suggest that White Supremacists are not nazi sympathizers. Oughtn't you instead try to deny there were white supremacists at the Libertarian party convention?

Because you were equivocating between Libertarians and racists, and racists and White supremacists/Neo-Nazis. If you haven't noticed, Jason is the board's Libertarian.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...eat-Horse-Race&p=322329&viewfull=1#post322329

Your remark was admittedly off-the-cuff, and to be fair, it seems you were responding to what could reasonably have been interpreted as Jason's incredulity that Nazi-sympathizers exist. The rest of these last 10 pages have been you two talking past each other.

Undoubtedly there are racist libertarians, but they are usually not the kind that can be termed Neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazi white supremacy is characterized by not mere racism but also by subscribing to white separatism and racial theories akin to those of the Nazis e.g. that there is an Aryan race which is supreme among what is normally termed white people, and very importantly, that includes a particular disdain for Jews. Clearly, this is incompatible with Libertarianism. I mean really, Rothbard, Von Mises, Rand, and Greenspan were all Jews! And that's only the prominant Libertarians I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Elixir]

No, I am not. I am saying a specific racist movement has been influenced by the nazis. There are many racist movements that have not. America's white supremecist movement is not one of them. There have been oodles of studies of the american white supremacist movement, and they provide ample evidence of this. By deliberately ignoring all the times I haves specifically explained what I am talking about, you are misrepresenting my argument.

I am absolutely incapable of dumbing it down any further for you.

The question is why are you trying to convince people that American White Supremecists aren't influenced by nazis? I earlier made an off the cuff remark about nazi sympathizers at the Libertarian convention, and now, instead of denying that there are white supremacists in the Libertarian party, you are trying to suggest that White Supremacists are not nazi sympathizers. Oughtn't you instead try to deny there were white supremacists at the Libertarian party convention?

Because you were equivocating between Libertarians and racists, and racists and White supremacists/Neo-Nazis. If you haven't noticed, Jason is the board's Libertarian.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...eat-Horse-Race&p=322329&viewfull=1#post322329

Your remark was admittedly off-the-cuff, and to be fair, it seems you were responding to what could reasonably have been interpreted as Jason's incredulity that Nazi-sympathizers exist. The rest of these last 10 pages have been you two talking past each other.

Undoubtedly there are racist libertarians, but they are usually not the kind that can be termed Neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazi white supremacy is characterized by not mere racism but also by subscribing to white separatism and racial theories akin to those of the Nazis e.g. that there is an Aryan race which is supreme among what is normally termed white people, and very importantly, that includes a particular disdain for Jews. Clearly, this is incompatible with Libertarianism. I mean really, Rothbard, Von Mises, Rand, and Greenspan were all Jews! And that's only the prominant Libertarians I can think of off the top of my head.

I find it hard to believe that there are any neo-nazis left for the libertarians - are there any that are not already firmly in the Trump camp?

 

[Sarpedon]

I did remark on that a few pages ago.

I also am not equivocating between nazi sympathizers, white supremacists and racists. I stated clearly I believe that white supremacist=nazi sympathizer. Say that I am incorrect, but do not say that I am equivocating. Nor have I been saying all racists are white supremacists or nazi sympathizers. I have been quite specific about who I am talking about. It is Jason who has been trying to portray me as equivocating between them, because he has no argument of his own, so resorts to this sort of mud-slinging.

To be clear, I've never felt that there was intrinsically racist about Libertarians or Libertarian about White Supremacy. I apologize if I gave that impression. I think that after the collapse of Jim Crow and the general expulsion of racists from polite politics that took place in the seventies and eighties, the White Supremacists found shelter wherever they could, including the Libertarian Party, but also other minor right parties, as well as remaining dormant in the major parties. (I would be the last to say they aren't in the Democrat party as well).

The Libertarians, with their anything goes mentality and general lack of discipline, as well as their secessionist inspired dislike of central power and love of guns, proved a hospitable place for them. Now that the Tea party has gone full-racist, there is an opportunity for the Libertarians to free themselves of this influence, if they could ever summon the discipline to do so.

 

[angelo]

If so called White supremecists are influenced by Nazis, who then are Islamic terrorists groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah influenced by if not by Nazism? Mein Kampf is still a best seller in Gaza and other Islamic States.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? And, when you say "If so called White supremacists are influenced by Nazis" do you mean to imply that such groups don't exist, or that such groups aren't influenced by Nazis? Groups like The American Nazi Party, and the Aryan Nations, which are both overtly influenced by Nazism, at least in their racial theories and vocabulary. I'll grant that a lot of these "Christian Identity" movements really have little to do with Nazism as understood by Hitler, aside from the underlying White supremacy and some borrowing of terminology, but you have to at least admit that they are influenced by Nazism in the same sense that modern rock music is influenced by pre-50's rock-and-roll.

Perhaps a re phrase is in order! White supremecists, and terrorists groups are all in some sense influenced by Nazism, and in particular Hitler!