# US student loans grotesquely high

#### Gun Nut

##### Veteran Member
There was an equation I saw once that worked like this. It's "is too old for you?"
The point is that these types of suggestions should not have legal force. An adult at least should not be deemed to young to consent to sex with somebody deemed too old for them by the intrusive nanny state, which seems what Gun Nut is suggesting.
I am not suggesting an Autistic, hard-and-fast rule. I was responding to a specific question from Derec regarding what a jurry might consider in a statutory rape case.... not what "mandatory" lines should be drawn for minimum sentences or prosecution.
For example, today, in most states, there is no law that says you may not leave your children unattended unless they are a specific age. The laws are that the parents make responsible decisions that are based on the maturity level of their children at the time. This is not laid out with any formula, but there are guidelines and guardrails, such as what I was implying for the topic of statutory rape that Derec asked me about.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
So, if I was going to just use x=y, the curve says "exactly your age"

If I use x=y*2, the curve says If they are double, they are too old.

So for 21 and 45, I would look at 45 first: 25 is less than 90.

Then for 21 I would look at 45: 45 is not less than 42. Get out of here you weird perv.

If you want to give wiggle room, the answer is to add that as a constant: mx+CONSTANT+curve.

#### Rhea

##### Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
I do not agree with this “curve” extending past 25. Or even 21, really, for the younger partner.

There are many strong loving relationships out there between partners who are 20 years apart. I am personally familiar with several. Outlawing their relationship would not be good for society.

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.

Whether or not X majors take more Y classes (you fill in for X and Y) than Y majors take X classes is not a very good indicator of relative well-roundedness. So I don't think it matters much. I suspect that general education or distributional requirements are viewed as being more skewed towards "humanities" than science which suggests Jason's claim is probably true.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
Quantifiably untrue.

Whether or not X majors take more Y classes (you fill in for X and Y) than Y majors take X classes is not a very good indicator of relative well-roundedness. So I don't think it matters much. I suspect that general education or distributional requirements are viewed as being more skewed towards "humanities" than science which suggests Jason's claim is probably true.
I'm sure they are viewed that way, but I've served on both curriculum and transfer equivalency boards pretty recently and can guarantee you that the out-of-discipline classes students are obliged to take are being trimmed to an absolute minimum acorss the board at most schools, with enormous pressure to explain how this or that requirement directly leads to a job. This approach does not generally favor the humanities, which are poorly understood by the general public. Take a student who is currently enrolled at a community college in California but knows their end goal is a STEM program at one of the campuses of the University of California. The only humanities courses they'll ever be required to take on the way to their degree are 2 english composition courses, if you even count those as humanities, and one course specifically in a humanities discipline (which could easily be something on the more STEM side of the social sciences as well). The rest are waived or otherwise evitable for STEM-bound students, as long as that's their plan from the start, because they are exempted from a full five courses of the usual GE pattern. Whereas, a student in one of the humanities disciplines has to follow the full transfer pattern, no exceptions, meaning however many classes necessary to get them to transfer level mathematics and 2 courses in the physical or biological sciences. It's also much more likely that their degree program will require further science education - for instance, an anthropology, sociology, or psychology degree at my institution require quite a few science courses. But it's rare for the reverse to be true, that a STEM field other than medicine will require non-STEM classes beyond what the general education pattern obliges.

I do agree that "number of classes taken" is not a very rigorous measure of roundedness, though. The poverty of science education at the primary and secondary levels should be considered, for instance. The M in STEM is pounded to death before college begins, but S is increasingly neglected and T and E all but moribund.

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
I agree that "out of program" classes in almost all programs are either being pushed out or trimmed out. Where I teach, the "gen ed" or "distributional' requirements for all programs has more "humanities" than science requirements. Having said that, I do know that most of the science programs direct their majors to take specific "gen ed" classes which suggests there is less generality going on, especially if the courses are designed with their majors in mind. I do know that engineering degrees are typically more rigidly defined, especially for gen. ed (ours has an exception so that they take fewer gen. ed. classes).

I suspect from experience and observation (which is anecdotal and skewed) but engineering students tend to be much more narrowly focused in the general outlook than humanities students.

#### Rhea

##### Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
This is true, in my experience. And they are required to take higher level humanities courses than humanities majors are require to take of tech courses.

One might ask, does an extra level of calculus make you as much more “rounded” as an extra level of History, Language, Art, Music or Literature? Calculus, maybe no - but biology, electronics or physics, perhaps yes.

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
In order to figure out the relative requirements, I knew I had to choose a school that was neither small nor Ivy League. Basically I had to try to pick a typical school, of which there is no such thing. So having recently left California I chose UCLA.

From the catalog

Writing I

Writing II

Quantitative Reasoning Requirement
One of the following:
• Biostatistics 100A, 100B
• Life Sciences 20, 30A, 30B, 40
• Mathematics 3A, 31A, 31AL
• Philosophy 31
• Political Science 6, 6R
• Program in Computing 10A, 10B, 10C
• Public Affairs 60
• Statistics 10, 12, 13

Foreign Language Requirement

Arts and Humanities
Three 5-unit courses, one from each subgroup:
• Literary and Cultural Analysis
• Philosophical and Linguistic Analysis
• Visual and Performance Arts Analysis and Practice

Society and Culture
Three 5-unit courses, one from each subgroup and a third
course from either subgroup:
• Historical Analysis
• Social Analysis

Scientific Inquiry
Four courses, two from each subgroup. One 5-unit course
from either subgroup must include laboratory credit. Other
courses in the subgroups may be 4 units:
• Life Sciences
• Physical Sciences

Final analysis
4 science (4 or 5 units each, minimum 18 units)
1 quantitative reasoning (can be stem, or philosophy, or poly sci)
2 writing
1 foreign language
3 arts (5 units each, minimum 15 units)
3 society and culture (5 units each, minimum 15 units)

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
Certainly the expectations for scientific knowledge of the general public are pathetically low.

Look at any TV quiz show; Contestants are expected to be challenged to hold incredibly detailed knowledge of Sports and Popular Music, sophomoric knowledge of History and Geography, and kindergarten knowledge of Science.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing.
As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees.
You seem to agree with me now.
Actually I do not agree!
Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes.
This is true, in my experience. And they are required to take higher level humanities courses than humanities majors are require to take of tech courses.

One might ask, does an extra level of calculus make you as much more “rounded” as an extra level of History, Language, Art, Music or Literature? Calculus, maybe no - but biology, electronics or physics, perhaps yes.
More rounded compared to what? It’s not clear from what you wrote.

My observation is that many scientists and mathematicians and engineers would benefit from more understanding of human behavior, and gain more empathy from reading more literature. Many with degrees in humanities would really benefit from stronger grounding in mathematics and at least basic human biology. I’ve been stunned at how little some Ph.D.s do not understand about how their bodies function—which is important to understand and participate in making good decisions about your medical care just as it is important fir artists and musicians and writers to understand math and finance sufficiently to understand and participate in a meaningful way I making those decisions for themselves.

Surely we all see the harm in legislators making policy abd laws about healthcare when they are extremely ignorant of basic facts about…let’s just go with human reproduction and pregnancy and childbirth and birth control.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
So, if I was going to just use x=y, the curve says "exactly your age"

If I use x=y*2, the curve says If they are double, they are too old.

So for 21 and 45, I would look at 45 first: 25 is less than 90.

Then for 21 I would look at 45: 45 is not less than 42. Get out of here you weird perv.

If you want to give wiggle room, the answer is to add that as a constant: mx+CONSTANT+curve.
You're still not rebutting the "standard" formula--I've always heard it as for not being a perv, not as ideal. And I think you're misunderstanding "linear"--while it's a straight line it's at a different slope than age, as they get older the permitted gap widens.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
I've always heard it as for not being a perv, not as ideal.
That's a modern re-interpretation though.

Léon Paul Blouet wrote in 1901 that this formula was the ideal age for marriage; A bride should be half her groom's age, plus seven years.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I do not agree with this “curve” extending past 25. Or even 21, really, for the younger partner.

There are many strong loving relationships out there between partners who are 20 years apart. I am personally familiar with several. Outlawing their relationship would not be good for society.
I do think it's a reasonable general rule, but it shouldn't be an absolute. If you're trying to date that far below your age I think there's a problem--but relationships sometimes form from proximity. We broke that rule--but neither of us even considered the other as a possible partner but proximity turned into our hearts having their own opinion of the situation. Also, our personalities are a lot closer in age than our biology.

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.
Yeah, that's why I didn't use it. Really, we should start at y=x and add on from there, to give folks a rising ceiling.

Ideally that rising maximal ceiling would curve up, and age/2+7 is linear.

Beyond 21, it needs to swing up, so 21 can be with 25-27, 27 can be with 35-40, and so on.
No, the formula must in most cases include those below your age because it must work both ways. If 21 can be with 25, then 25 can be with 21.

(The age/2+7 bit doesn't permit going below 14--but I don't see that as a problem with it.)
"Below your age" means "do you satisfy their curve."
Which doesn't change the fact that any reasonable rule must be bidirectional.
So, if I was going to just use x=y, the curve says "exactly your age"

If I use x=y*2, the curve says If they are double, they are too old.

So for 21 and 45, I would look at 45 first: 25 is less than 90.

Then for 21 I would look at 45: 45 is not less than 42. Get out of here you weird perv.

If you want to give wiggle room, the answer is to add that as a constant: mx+CONSTANT+curve.
You're still not rebutting the "standard" formula--I've always heard it as for not being a perv, not as ideal. And I think you're misunderstanding "linear"--while it's a straight line it's at a different slope than age, as they get older the permitted gap widens.
As Rhea points out, it needs to trumpet, not widen linearly, such that the range at 25 becomes fairly large. 25 and 40 isn't really creepy, but there can be really fucked up financial arrangements going on in situations where 18-20 year olds fall in with 30-40 year olds (especially LGBT youth) and flush 3-10 years of their life away like that, supporting someone who doesn't work, makes all the decisions, and who leveraged the relationship to get financial concessions.

I don't think I am misunderstanding what a linear relationship means in a function though, especially this one.

I would argue that even past 25, there needs to be functions of limitation on things like prenuptial agreements and financial parity on the basis of distant ages: younger parties need some manner of real legal (financial, not special criminal) leverage in the relationship, because they lack the experience that generates the foresight to see why some types of relationship decisions are otherwise self-destructive.

The trumpet could widen faster, at an earlier point, assuming the population at large has actually been through comprehensive life education on informed consent, financial security and parity, safe words, and the dangers of power dynamics in a relationship, and the population is adequately filtered against behaviors that violate consent.

We aren't at that society yet, and the GQP is actively fighting it as they are fighting all education.

So the best I think we can do is specify some curve over which a sexual relationship with a younger party implies some level of fiduciary trust that does not bind the younger party to the older, because the fact is, younger parties are often preyed upon in this way.

For fuck sakes I just had a conversation with my best goddamn friend about someone this is being done to right now, and my friend's attempt to extract them from the toxic place through an offer of a place free of... That...

There's just no legal structure protecting folks who essentially lose their family because they aren't MAN+WIFE compatible and their parents are shitty.

But that has little to do with student loans, other than the fact that seeking education for such persons is essentially also signing up for student loans, for such persons.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
I dunno. My husband and I are less than a year apart in age and we’ve been married for 2/3 of our lives, together a couple more years.

I don’t have a lot of data points since I married young but at one point I dated a guy who probably was that magic/perfect ratio age difference—and basically he liked younger women because of his own insecurities and control issues.

My mom always said marry them young and raise them up right…

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
Lawsuit Seeks to Block Biden’s Student Debt Cancellation Plan - The New York Times - "A lawyer at a conservative legal group said in a complaint that he would personally be financially harmed by the government’s approach." - the compaint itself
Libertarian group sues to block student debt cancellation | AP News
A libertarian group in California filed a legal challenge to President Joe Biden’s plan for student debt cancellation on Tuesday, calling it an illegal overreach that would increase state tax burdens for some Americans who get their debt forgiven.

The lawsuit, believed to be the first targeting Biden’s plan, was filed by the Pacific Legal Foundation, a Sacramento legal advocacy group. It was filed in federal court in Indiana, one of several states that plan to tax any student debt canceled by Biden’s plan.

“Congress did not authorize the executive branch to unilaterally cancel student debt,” said Caleb Kruckenberg, an attorney at the Pacific Legal Foundation. He said it’s illegal for the executive branch to create the policy “by press release, and without statutory authority.”

Republican-led States Sue to Block Biden’s Student Loan Debt Relief - The New York Times - "The lawsuit accuses President Biden of overstepping his authority in directing the government to cancel as much as $20,000 in student loan debt for millions of people." - Rutledge Announces Suit Against Biden for Unlawfully Cancelling Debt – Arkansas Attorney General GOP states sue Biden administration over student loan plan | AP News Six Republican-led states are suing the Biden administration in an effort to halt its plan to forgive student loan debt for tens of millions of Americans, accusing it of overstepping its executive powers. ... In the lawsuit, being filed Thursday in a federal court in Missouri, the Republican states argue that Biden’s cancellation plan is “not remotely tailored to address the effects of the pandemic on federal student loan borrowers,” as required by the 2003 federal law that the administration is using as legal justification. They point out that Biden, in an interview with CBS’ “60 Minutes” this month, declared the Covid-19 pandemic over, yet is still using the ongoing health emergency to justify the wide-scale debt relief. “It’s patently unfair to saddle hard-working Americans with the loan debt of those who chose to go to college,” Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge, who is leading the group, said in an interview. She added: “The Department of Education is required, under the law, to collect the balance due on loans. And President Biden does not have the authority to override that.” The states of Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska and South Carolina joined Arkansas in filing the lawsuit. However, the Biden Admin is confident that student-loan forgiveness will survive court challenges. “Republican officials from these six states are standing with special interests, and fighting to stop relief for borrowers buried under mountains of debt,” White House spokesman Abdullah Hasan said Thursday. “The president and his administration are lawfully giving working and middle class families breathing room as they recover from the pandemic and prepare to resume loan payments in January. ” #### Derec ##### Contributor I am not suggesting an Autistic, hard-and-fast rule. I was responding to a specific question from Derec regarding what a jurry might consider in a statutory rape case.... not what "mandatory" lines should be drawn for minimum sentences or prosecution. No, you are suggesting something even worse. You are suggesting that a jurry[sic] should be able to arbitrarily decide that somebody's adult partner is too young for them and convict them of crime on that basis. For example, today, in most states, there is no law that says you may not leave your children unattended unless they are a specific age. The laws are that the parents make responsible decisions that are based on the maturity level of their children at the time. This is not laid out with any formula, but there are guidelines and guardrails, such as what I was implying for the topic of statutory rape that Derec asked me about. But you would extend the power of state to meddle even when both sex partners are adults, not children or even older minors. This is the exchange: Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old? I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old Emphasis added. #### Derec ##### Contributor Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes. Quantifiably untrue. From my experience, Jason is absolutely correct. It is also backed up when you look at required classes for engineering or science BS vs. say English BA programs at universities. Can you provide some "quantifiable" evidence that what he said is untrue? #### Derec ##### Contributor Whether or not X majors take more Y classes (you fill in for X and Y) than Y majors take X classes is not a very good indicator of relative well-roundedness. What do you think would make a good indicator of "relative well-roundedness"? Other than your or Toni's subjective impressions? So I don't think it matters much. I suspect that general education or distributional requirements are viewed as being more skewed towards "humanities" than science which suggests Jason's claim is probably true. It is true from everything I have seen. #### Derec ##### Contributor I'm sure they are viewed that way, but I've served on both curriculum and transfer equivalency boards pretty recently and can guarantee you that the out-of-discipline classes students are obliged to take are being trimmed to an absolute minimum acorss the board at most schools, with enormous pressure to explain how this or that requirement directly leads to a job. I do not know what college or university you work at, but that does not contradict the point that there are in general more humanities classes required from an engineering or science major than science requirements for a humanities (say English) major. This approach does not generally favor the humanities, which are poorly understood by the general public. Take a student who is currently enrolled at a community college in California but knows their end goal is a STEM program at one of the campuses of the University of California. The only humanities courses they'll ever be required to take on the way to their degree are 2 english composition courses, if you even count those as humanities, and one course specifically in a humanities discipline (which could easily be something on the more STEM side of the social sciences as well). Why would you not want to count "English composition" as humanities? And why look at community colleges and not real universities? Generally STEM majors have to take more than this. I looked up EE/CompE engineering BS requirements at my alma mater. In addition to 6 credits of English Comp, students also have to take 6 credit hours of humanities electives, 3 hours of economics, and 3 hours or history or government. In addition, there are 6 credits of social sciences required (which are not humanities but work toward well-roundedness of curriculum). That is a minimum of 24 credit hours (out of 132 required for the degree) in humanities and social sciences, and there is possibility of taking more under "approved electives". How much math or science is your typical English or History BA required to take? It's also much more likely that their degree program will require further science education - for instance, an anthropology, sociology, or psychology degree at my institution require quite a few science courses. None of these are humanities majors though. We are talking about things like English. And why focus on transfer requirements. Just look at degree requirements. But it's rare for the reverse to be true, that a STEM field other than medicine will require non-STEM classes beyond what the general education pattern obliges. [citation needed] that it is rare, esp. relative to requiring math and science classes for humanities majors. I do agree that "number of classes taken" is not a very rigorous measure of roundedness, though. What would you use? The poverty of science education at the primary and secondary levels should be considered, for instance. Which explains the lack of roundedness for most humanities majors. The M in STEM is pounded to death before college begins, but S is increasingly neglected and T and E all but moribund. I think the T and E depend largely on the school school in question. In any case, you have to walk before you can run, and M and S provide the basis for especially the E portion of STEM. T can be introduced in elementary school easily though, but you need competent teachers and funding for the "toys" used in instruction. Last edited: #### Derec ##### Contributor I suspect from experience and observation (which is anecdotal and skewed) but engineering students tend to be much more narrowly focused in the general outlook than humanities students. I agree that this view is anecdotal and skewed. #### Derec ##### Contributor #### Politesse ##### Lux Aeterna I'm sure they are viewed that way, but I've served on both curriculum and transfer equivalency boards pretty recently and can guarantee you that the out-of-discipline classes students are obliged to take are being trimmed to an absolute minimum acorss the board at most schools, with enormous pressure to explain how this or that requirement directly leads to a job. I do not know what college or university you work at, but that does not contradict the point that there are in general more humanities classes required from an engineering or science major than science requirements for a humanities (say English) major. This approach does not generally favor the humanities, which are poorly understood by the general public. Take a student who is currently enrolled at a community college in California but knows their end goal is a STEM program at one of the campuses of the University of California. The only humanities courses they'll ever be required to take on the way to their degree are 2 english composition courses, if you even count those as humanities, and one course specifically in a humanities discipline (which could easily be something on the more STEM side of the social sciences as well). Why would you not want to count "English composition" as humanities? And why look at community colleges and not real universities? Generally STEM majors have to take more than this. I looked up EE/CompE engineering BS requirements at my alma mater. In addition to 6 credits of English Comp, students also have to take 6 credit hours of humanities electives, 3 hours of economics, and 3 hours or history or government. In addition, there are 6 credits of social sciences required (which are not humanities but work toward well-roundedness of curriculum). That is a minimum of 24 credit hours (out of 132 required for the degree) in humanities and social sciences, and there is possibility of taking more under "approved electives". How much math or science is your typical English or History BA required to take? It's also much more likely that their degree program will require further science education - for instance, an anthropology, sociology, or psychology degree at my institution require quite a few science courses. None of these are humanities majors though. We are talking about things like English. And why focus on transfer requirements. Just look at degree requirements. But it's rare for the reverse to be true, that a STEM field other than medicine will require non-STEM classes beyond what the general education pattern obliges. [citation needed] that it is rare, esp. relative to requiring math and science classes for humanities majors. I do agree that "number of classes taken" is not a very rigorous measure of roundedness, though. What would you use? The poverty of science education at the primary and secondary levels should be considered, for instance. Which explains the lack of roundedness for most humanities majors. The M in STEM is pounded to death before college begins, but S is increasingly neglected and T and E all but moribund. I think the T and E depend largely on the school school in question. In any case, you have to walk before you can run, and M and S provide the basis for especially the E portion of STEM. T can be introduced in elementary school easily though, but you need competent teachers and funding for the "toys" used in instruction. Your antipathy toward English classes is odd, but does not come as a surprise. #### scombrid ##### Senior Member I would argue no, that's not why you take English courses. That's why many/most universities require freshman composition and why many universities require ALL majors to have some required coursework that is heavy in writing. As I said, science/engineering degrees are far more well-rounded than say English degrees. You seem to agree with me now. Actually I do not agree! Engineering majors take more humanities classes than humanities majors take science classes. This is true, in my experience. And they are required to take higher level humanities courses than humanities majors are require to take of tech courses. One might ask, does an extra level of calculus make you as much more “rounded” as an extra level of History, Language, Art, Music or Literature? Calculus, maybe no - but biology, electronics or physics, perhaps yes. More rounded compared to what? It’s not clear from what you wrote. My observation is that many scientists and mathematicians and engineers would benefit from more understanding of human behavior, and gain more empathy from reading more literature. Many with degrees in humanities would really benefit from stronger grounding in mathematics and at least basic human biology. I’ve been stunned at how little some Ph.D.s do not understand about how their bodies function—which is important to understand and participate in making good decisions about your medical care just as it is important fir artists and musicians and writers to understand math and finance sufficiently to understand and participate in a meaningful way I making those decisions for themselves. Surely we all see the harm in legislators making policy abd laws about healthcare when they are extremely ignorant of basic facts about…let’s just go with human reproduction and pregnancy and childbirth and birth control. My Dad had. PhD in Ichthyology. He was the science department head at a community college where he taught marine science, general biology, and anatomy and physiology. He still managed to be baffled by the practical application of his knowledge to personal nutrition and exercise. Meanwhile I only have a M.S. in marine science and consider myself a relative moron. But since I am a “scientist” for a DNR I have to engage with the public a lot. We spend a lot of time and energy studying “human dimensions” which includes decision theory and such plus lots of surveys and public meetings. I am perpetually astounded that I have to adjust my message so much to try to convey super basic concepts; that people think I am “smart” on the topics when I am presenting to them the “layman’s” version of my own grossly inadequate knowledge. Of course then there are the anti-government types that think all scientists are detached egghead libtard morons that have only book lernin and are out to subjugate the masses by someone them from living off the land or having any fun. #### Gun Nut ##### Veteran Member I am not suggesting an Autistic, hard-and-fast rule. I was responding to a specific question from Derec regarding what a jurry might consider in a statutory rape case.... not what "mandatory" lines should be drawn for minimum sentences or prosecution. No, you are suggesting something even worse. You are suggesting that a jurry[sic] should be able to arbitrarily decide that somebody's adult partner is too young for them and convict them of crime on that basis. For example, today, in most states, there is no law that says you may not leave your children unattended unless they are a specific age. The laws are that the parents make responsible decisions that are based on the maturity level of their children at the time. This is not laid out with any formula, but there are guidelines and guardrails, such as what I was implying for the topic of statutory rape that Derec asked me about. But you would extend the power of state to meddle even when both sex partners are adults, not children or even older minors. This is the exchange: Do you also think age of consent should follow suit? Be charged with a crime for having consensual sex with a 29 year old? I think those thresholds should be relative to the difference in age between them, adjusted by the older person's age (i.e 10 years apart is fine for a 40 year old with a 30 year old... but not a 20 year old with a 10 year old... or even a 50 year old with a 20 year old Emphasis added. I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way... It was explicit.. it was dependant... it was contextual... not a thing "Arbritrary" about it... Something like the speed limit on a highway is pretty much "Arbitrary"... as it is based on something that only very loosely applies to every single car on the road. What I said is nothing like that.. it would be more like an individual speed limit on the highway, based on the type of car and demonstrated skill of the driver.. maybe also the weather... A Jury considers multiple things about the "partnership" (individual age, age difference, maturity, context), and only one thing about a speeding ticket... your speed. My thing was not arbitrary at all. #### Derec ##### Contributor Your antipathy toward English classes is odd, but does not come as a surprise. I do not have any antipathy toward English classes. Now you are just making shit up. #### Derec ##### Contributor I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way... You want legality relationships between adults to be based on the whims of a jury, and not clear rules. That would not only be an outrageous intrusion by the criminal justice system into the personal relationships between adults, it is arbitrary by definition. A Jury considers multiple things about the "partnership" (individual age, age difference, maturity, context), and only one thing about a speeding ticket... your speed. My thing was not arbitrary at all. And you can never know how a jury may decide, because there are no clear guidelines and thus it is based on what the jurors believe. As opposed to speed limits, which are posted on signs. #### laughing dog ##### Contributor I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way... You want legality relationships between adults to be based on the whims of a jury, and not clear rules. Statutory rape is a clear rule about the legality of relationships and you are against such laws. #### Gun Nut ##### Veteran Member I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way... You want legality relationships between adults to be based on the whims of a jury, and not clear rules. That would not only be an outrageous intrusion by the criminal justice system into the personal relationships between adults, it is arbitrary by definition. A Jury considers multiple things about the "partnership" (individual age, age difference, maturity, context), and only one thing about a speeding ticket... your speed. My thing was not arbitrary at all. And you can never know how a jury may decide, because there are no clear guidelines and thus it is based on what the jurors believe. As opposed to speed limits, which are posted on signs. This is how our legal system works across all forms of cases... not specific to this type of thing. #### Toni ##### Contributor I suspect from experience and observation (which is anecdotal and skewed) but engineering students tend to be much more narrowly focused in the general outlook than humanities students. I agree that this view is anecdotal and skewed. It is a stereotype, yes. Stereotypes exist for a reason: they are broadly true about some categories. Men are taller than women is generally true and it is a stereotype to make that broad claim apply across all men and all women. That does not mean that all men are taller than all women or that men who are not taller than all women or most women or even an especially tall woman is not a man. Generally speaking, engineering attracts a certain kind of person, intellectually, temperamentally, personality wise. Most engineering programs are fairly rigid in their requirements, and may reinforce certain characteristics as it directs talents and abilities. The engineering programs I am familiar with allow little room to study other areas. Unfortunately, this is increasingly true of many other majors, I think, not in service of the best interests of the students or society. This is probably something you would think obvious of someone who pursues studies in art or music or language studies or a dozen other courses of study and career paths. But that does not mean that an engineer cannot also be a poet or that a poet cannot design a system or take apart an engine or know and understand astronomy or genetics. #### lpetrich ##### Contributor Biden's student loan plan explicitly and illegally helps Black borrowers, group says - The Washington Post A group in Wisconsin claims President Biden’s plan to cancel up to$20,000 in student loan debt violates federal law by intentionally seeking to narrow the racial wealth gap and help Black borrowers.

...
In promoting the debt forgiveness plan, the White House has said it could help narrow the racial wealth gap and advance racial equity. But the lawsuit argues that those statements constitute an “improper racial motive” and violate the constitution’s guarantee of equal protection of the laws.

“The White House has indicated that one reason to do this is that they believe it would disproportionately benefit certain racial groups,” said Rick Esenberg, president and general counsel of the Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty. “The racial motivation supports these taxpayers standing to challenge [the policy] and informs yet another constitutional difficulty with the program.”

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
Biden's student loan plan explicitly and illegally helps Black borrowers, group says - The Washington Post
• Families that made less than $250,000 in 2021 or 2020 If you filed federal taxes, your income requirements are based on your adjusted gross income (AGI), which tends to be lower than your total income. Your AGI can be found on line 11 of the IRS Form 1040. How It Works Apply today (but no later than Dec. 31, 2023). We’ll determine your eligibility and will contact you if we need more information. Your loan servicer will notify you when your relief has been processed. Pretty much what was announced earlier about this initiative. Wisconsin lawsuit targeting Biden's student debt relief plan tossed A federal district judge on Thursday tossed a conservative legal group's lawsuit challenging President Joe Biden's student loan forgiveness plan. ... Judge William C. Griesbach, who was appointed to the bench by President George W. Bush, ruled Thursday that the taxpayers association doesn't have “standing” before the court, or the grounds to sue. "The Supreme Court has repeatedly held, however, that the payment of taxes is generally not enough to establish standing to challenge an action taken by the Federal Government," he wrote in his decision. WILL plans to appeal this decision. #### lpetrich ##### Contributor Supreme Court urged to halt Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan | The Hill A group of Wisconsin taxpayers on Wednesday asked the Supreme Court to block the Biden administration’s student loan forgiveness program while an appeal plays out in a lower court. ... A U.S. District judge in Wisconsin dismissed the suit for lack of standing. An intermediate appeals court declined to halt that ruling while a formal appeal plays out, prompting the group’s emergency request to the Supreme Court. #### ZiprHead ##### Loony Running The Asylum Staff member #### Jarhyn ##### Wizard Ok, these tax breaks, what is the scale? Is it a 10y scale or a 1y scale? #### Elixir ##### Made in America Robert Reich said: If Republicans regain power, the tax cuts for the rich will only get more extreme. Well damn. We better get busy being rich, right? #### ZiprHead ##### Loony Running The Asylum Staff member #### lpetrich ##### Contributor Judge dismisses student loan forgiveness lawsuit by GOP-led states - The Washington Post A federal judge on Thursday denied a bid by six Republican-led states to block the Biden administration from moving forward with plans to cancel up to$20,000 in federal student loan debt for more than 40 million people.

...
U.S. District Judge Henry E. Autrey of the Eastern District of Missouri issued a 19-page order concluding that the states lacked the standing to bring the lawsuit to stop one of the administration’s signature economic policies.

“While plaintiffs present important and significant challenges to the debt relief plan, the current Plaintiffs are unable to proceed to the resolution of these challenges,” he wrote.

Biden’s student debt relief notches early victories from GOP-appointed judges - POLITICO - "Justice Amy Coney Barrett declines to block the policy as another federal judge dismisses challenge from GOP-led states."

"Barrett on Thursday swiftly rejected a Wisconsin conservative group’s emergency request to stop the policy without comment or any indication she referred the matter to the full court."

Apparently WILL:
The Brown County Taxpayers Association had argued that it should be able to challenge the Biden administration’s debt relief program on behalf of the taxpayers who it says will be dealt a “staggering” blow by the policy. The lawsuit was brought by the conservative Wisconsin Institute for Law & Liberty.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
Appeals court pauses Biden student debt relief program while it reviews case | CNN Politics
The order from the 8th US Circuit Court of Appeals comes in a case brought by six Republican-led states, asking for a preliminary injunction to halt the policy after a district court dismissed the case earlier this week. The effort is separate from a Wisconsin taxpayers group’s challenge to the program that was recently rejected by the Supreme Court.

The appeals court gave the administration until Monday to respond to the states’ request, and the states will have until Tuesday to reply to that response. The states had asked the appeals court to act before Sunday, the earliest date the Biden administration had said it would grant student loan discharges.

However, the administration is not stopping.
Student debt relief can move 'full speed ahead' despite temporary hold, Education Secretary pledges | CNN Politics

Noting
Secretary Miguel Cardona on Twitter: "Amid some Republicans trying to block our student debt relief program, we are moving full speed ahead, preparing for implementation so we can deliver relief to borrowers who need it most. (vid link)" / Twitter
With a short speech by him.

Cardona says Republicans fighting student debt relief won’t succeed, department is moving ‘full speed ahead’ | The Hill
What to know now that Biden's student debt relief is temporarily blocked : NPR

The admin is encouraging people to continue to apply for debt relief.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.

Y'all are making this too complicated. The formula prescribes a minimum age for partner. Assuming symmetry the formula can be inverted to get a maximum age. Here is the result:
14) 14-14
16) 15-18
18) 16-22
20) 17-26
22) 18-30
24) 19-34
26) 20-38
28) 21-42
30) 22-46
32) 23-50
34) 24-54
36) 25-58
46) 30-78
56) 35+
66) 40+
76) 45+
Thus according to this formula — whose validity is beyond the scope of my remarks — a 30-year-old should partner with someone between ages 22 and 46. A baby boomer like myself needs a partner in her 40's or older.

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
The "standard" formula is age/2+7
That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.

Y'all are making this too complicated. The formula prescribes a minimum age for partner. Assuming symmetry the formula can be inverted to get a maximum age. Here is the result:
14) 14-14
16) 15-18
18) 16-22
20) 17-26
22) 18-30
24) 19-34
26) 20-38
28) 21-42
30) 22-46
32) 23-50
34) 24-54
36) 25-58
46) 30-78
56) 35+
66) 40+
76) 45+
Thus according to this formula — whose validity is beyond the scope of my remarks — a 30-year-old should partner with someone between ages 22 and 46. A baby boomer like myself needs a partner in her 40's or older.

I made this point up thread, however I recommend formulaic calculation of "upper age" from "lower partner age", because the goal is to have young people prepared to distrust the intentions of those who are likely to be capable of manipulating them successfully outside all possibility of consent.

Also this is why I propose curves. There's a dunning-kruger effect with respect to competence at avoiding sexual manipulation, where below a certain point you're going to be too dumb to know you're dumb, but eventually you become smart enough to know how dumb you are, smart enough to take off-the-shelf mitigations for playing such games as accepting you're dumb and doing it anyway.

A 30 year old could easily understand how a 64 year old is going to chew them up and spit them out and that the 64 year old great old one knows how to play whatever games they want, and as long as everyone knows what game they are playing (30 year old is a long for the ride), that's fine.

A 20 year old just... Nope. LOL. NOPE! Nope nope nope. Ain't no 64 year old justifying having sex with a 20 year old BABY.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The formula prescribes a minimum age for partner
No, it doesn't. It prescribed the ideal age for a man's wife. The central point on a bell curve of undefined width.

It's generally not considered fit for that purpose anymore, but it's not notably more fit for the other purposes to which it has been co-opted, but for which it's author never intended it.

That's true of its common modern use to define the youngest age of woman with whom a man's relationship isn't "creepy"; And it's also true of your attempt to shoehorn it into service as a formula prescribing an age range for sexual partners.

It's nonsense, it was nonsensical for its original purpose, and it's no less nonsensical for any new purposes we might wish to assign to it.