US student loans grotesquely high

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Cancelling student debt is an interesting idea, but perhaps those proposing it should go even further.

The government should also enact a special tax on non-college grads in order to fund a $5000 annual gift for all college grads as a way to show appreciation for how smart and productive we are. Or maybe even $5000 for a Bachelors, $10000 for a Masters, and $20000 for a PhD.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In larger (or even not large) lecture sections, professors cannot prevent students from goofing off in class unless it is disruptive to other students. This has been an issue in some schools with so many university students bringing laptops to class--and sometimes watching porn on their laptop during lecture. All sorts of issues as one person's taste in porn might be highly objectionable to another person for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah, large lectures are for all practical purposes distance learning--except recorded material can be replayed, lectures can't. I see no scenario in which they are superior to recorded material and plenty where they are inferior.

 

[Toni]

In larger (or even not large) lecture sections, professors cannot prevent students from goofing off in class unless it is disruptive to other students. This has been an issue in some schools with so many university students bringing laptops to class--and sometimes watching porn on their laptop during lecture. All sorts of issues as one person's taste in porn might be highly objectionable to another person for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah, large lectures are for all practical purposes distance learning--except recorded material can be replayed, lectures can't. I see no scenario in which they are superior to recorded material and plenty where they are inferior.

Can't agree with you there. A lot depends upon the professor. I've been in large lecture sections where the professor did not want to take questions---and large lecture sections where they welcomed questions. Plus, if the professor is any good as an instructor, they can tell whether the students are following along or not, whether they are engaged or not--and adjust accordingly. In many respects, it's the same as how in a live performance, the performer(s) feed off of the audience. I've talked to stage actors just after their performances who really noted whether the audience was lively or 'dead.' They did not prefer the dead audience.

If you think that standing up in front of a class lecturing has nothing in common with a stage performance (or musical performance or dance performance), you're wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In larger (or even not large) lecture sections, professors cannot prevent students from goofing off in class unless it is disruptive to other students. This has been an issue in some schools with so many university students bringing laptops to class--and sometimes watching porn on their laptop during lecture. All sorts of issues as one person's taste in porn might be highly objectionable to another person for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah, large lectures are for all practical purposes distance learning--except recorded material can be replayed, lectures can't. I see no scenario in which they are superior to recorded material and plenty where they are inferior.

Can't agree with you there. A lot depends upon the professor. I've been in large lecture sections where the professor did not want to take questions---and large lecture sections where they welcomed questions. Plus, if the professor is any good as an instructor, they can tell whether the students are following along or not, whether they are engaged or not--and adjust accordingly. In many respects, it's the same as how in a live performance, the performer(s) feed off of the audience. I've talked to stage actors just after their performances who really noted whether the audience was lively or 'dead.' They did not prefer the dead audience.

If you think that standing up in front of a class lecturing has nothing in common with a stage performance (or musical performance or dance performance), you're wrong.

I've only had a few large lectures and the only one I could have sat close to the professor it utterly didn't matter--the guy was useless.

 

[Toni]

In larger (or even not large) lecture sections, professors cannot prevent students from goofing off in class unless it is disruptive to other students. This has been an issue in some schools with so many university students bringing laptops to class--and sometimes watching porn on their laptop during lecture. All sorts of issues as one person's taste in porn might be highly objectionable to another person for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah, large lectures are for all practical purposes distance learning--except recorded material can be replayed, lectures can't. I see no scenario in which they are superior to recorded material and plenty where they are inferior.

Can't agree with you there. A lot depends upon the professor. I've been in large lecture sections where the professor did not want to take questions---and large lecture sections where they welcomed questions. Plus, if the professor is any good as an instructor, they can tell whether the students are following along or not, whether they are engaged or not--and adjust accordingly. In many respects, it's the same as how in a live performance, the performer(s) feed off of the audience. I've talked to stage actors just after their performances who really noted whether the audience was lively or 'dead.' They did not prefer the dead audience.

If you think that standing up in front of a class lecturing has nothing in common with a stage performance (or musical performance or dance performance), you're wrong.

I've only had a few large lectures and the only one I could have sat close to the professor it utterly didn't matter--the guy was useless.

Cool story bro.

Not all instructors are good at instructing students.

Not all degrees are in programming or computer science.

 

[TSwizzle]

I came across this article that others may find interesting;

Baker College promises a better life. But few ever graduate, and those who do often leave with crushing debt, useless degrees. No one has intervened. Baker College sells itself as a place where students thrive and lives are transformed: “a haven for those who dream big.” From humble beginnings as a small business school in Flint, Baker rose to become the largest private college in Michigan, forging a presence in online learning and in Michigan towns where many students thought a college degree was beyond their grasp. For decades, the school’s marketing touted low costs and employment rates of nearly 100% for job-seeking graduates — making the dream seem both affordable and achievable. But for many the Baker reality is neither, an investigation by the Detroit Free Press and ProPublica found.

After graduating from high school in 2013, Daniel Church pursued an ambitious bachelor’s/master’s degree program in computer technology at Baker but said the department began to lose faculty and fell into disarray. Intent on sticking it out, he took out loans to stay in school and navigated unexpected graduation requirements. Then, after six years, he gave up in defeat. Today, Church drives a truck cross-country, with the hope that someday he can erase more than $30,000 he said he borrowed for a degree he never received.

Detroit Press

Some (a lot perhaps) are getting conned. I don't know how the people that allow and encourage this can live with themselves. Starting out on your working life at the age of 25ish with $30k of crushing debt must be soul destroying.

 

[Politesse]

Well, no, a degree you never finished is unlikely to land you a job...

 

[laughing dog]

In larger (or even not large) lecture sections, professors cannot prevent students from goofing off in class unless it is disruptive to other students. This has been an issue in some schools with so many university students bringing laptops to class--and sometimes watching porn on their laptop during lecture. All sorts of issues as one person's taste in porn might be highly objectionable to another person for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah, large lectures are for all practical purposes distance learning--except recorded material can be replayed, lectures can't. I see no scenario in which they are superior to recorded material and plenty where they are inferior.

Your imagination fails you. Large lectures can be interactive. As a student I've had large lectures that were way superior to recorded material.

 

[lpetrich]

Pressures aligning on Biden, Democrats to forgive student loans | TheHill

Broad-based student loan forgiveness has gained support among Democratic leaders like Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), who are looking to Biden for support on the issue as the party prepares for a critical election year.

“Pressure is mounting from all fronts. It’s mounting from grassroots, it’s mounting from the public, and it’s mounting from members of Congress. And the reality of the economy, the midterms, there are several pressures that are aligning. They really have to deliver,” said Thomas Gokey, an organizer with the Debt Collective.

...
“If he has the authority to pause student loan payments, he has the authority to cancel, and he ran on canceling at least $10,000,” Rep. Jamaal Bowman (D-N.Y.) told The Hill. “We're pushing him to completely cancel it, and that's what we hope he decides to do.”

Natalia Abrams, president and founder of the Student Debt Crisis Center, warned of the political implications of Biden resuming loan payments in an election year.

“It’s definitely been this weird middle ground by extending this pause. If he continues to extend the payment pause until they’re ready to cancel the student debt, we’ll be OK. Rather than turning payments on in a midterm year when borrowers aren’t ready,” she said.

During his 2020 presidential run, Biden campaigned on forgiving at least $10,000 in federal student loans per person.

The Debt Collective warned that if Biden doesn’t forgive up to $50,000 in federally held student debt per borrower, which progressives have called for, he will lose voters, citing conversations with borrowers on a grassroots level.

This isn’t just the midterms, this is about the rest of their lives,” Gokey said. “A Democrat couldn’t be elected dog catcher if they turn student loan payments back on.”

 

[Jarhyn]

Pressures aligning on Biden, Democrats to forgive student loans | TheHill

Broad-based student loan forgiveness has gained support among Democratic leaders like Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), who are looking to Biden for support on the issue as the party prepares for a critical election year.

“Pressure is mounting from all fronts. It’s mounting from grassroots, it’s mounting from the public, and it’s mounting from members of Congress. And the reality of the economy, the midterms, there are several pressures that are aligning. They really have to deliver,” said Thomas Gokey, an organizer with the Debt Collective.

...
“If he has the authority to pause student loan payments, he has the authority to cancel, and he ran on canceling at least $10,000,” Rep. Jamaal Bowman (D-N.Y.) told The Hill. “We're pushing him to completely cancel it, and that's what we hope he decides to do.”

Natalia Abrams, president and founder of the Student Debt Crisis Center, warned of the political implications of Biden resuming loan payments in an election year.

“It’s definitely been this weird middle ground by extending this pause. If he continues to extend the payment pause until they’re ready to cancel the student debt, we’ll be OK. Rather than turning payments on in a midterm year when borrowers aren’t ready,” she said.

During his 2020 presidential run, Biden campaigned on forgiving at least $10,000 in federal student loans per person.

The Debt Collective warned that if Biden doesn’t forgive up to $50,000 in federally held student debt per borrower, which progressives have called for, he will lose voters, citing conversations with borrowers on a grassroots level.

This isn’t just the midterms, this is about the rest of their lives,” Gokey said. “A Democrat couldn’t be elected dog catcher if they turn student loan payments back on.”

I'm turning this around, and saying, yes, I would still elect the democrat dog catcher and Biden and everyone else should too because it's Democrats or Nazis.

We should, however, primary every GD democrat who won't step left, and take every seat we can besides.

Even if they turned that faucet of evil back on.

 

[Trausti]

Cancelling student debt is good but we could do more.

The government should also tax non-college grads in order to fund a $5,000 annual gift for all college grads as a way to show appreciation for how smart and productive they are.

 

[Toni]

Well, no, a degree you never finished is unlikely to land you a job...

But I have gotten jobs specifically because of classes I took but did not earn a degree in.

Finishing a degree does send a potential employer the message that you are able to follow through with goals.

 

[Politesse]

Well, no, a degree you never finished is unlikely to land you a job...

But I have gotten jobs specifically because of classes I took but did not earn a degree in.

Finishing a degree does send a potential employer the message that you are able to follow through with goals.

That's true enough; my partial seminary program no doubt made me an interesting candidate for my current position, in fact, at least when bolstered by my completed degree in my own field. But my point remains that failing to finish a program is hardly reasonable evidence that a degree is not worth the investment. Of course one isn't guaranteed to derive strong financial reward for dropping out of a program before completion. Of what program would this be true?

 

[TSwizzle]

The University of Michigan has fired its $927,000-a-year president for having an affair with a subordinate, a year after implementing wide sexual misconduct rules to stop people in power sleeping with their staff. Mark Schlissel, 64, was informed in a letter on Saturday that he was being fired from the role he has held since July 2014. The university has also made public 118 pages of emails between him and the woman he had an affair with.

Daily Mail

$927k a year I'm sure he was worth every cent.

 

[laughing dog]

Well, no, a degree you never finished is unlikely to land you a job...

But I have gotten jobs specifically because of classes I took but did not earn a degree in.

Finishing a degree does send a potential employer the message that you are able to follow through with goals.

That's true enough; my partial seminary program no doubt made me an interesting candidate for my current position, in fact, at least when bolstered by my completed degree in my own field. But my point remains that failing to finish a program is hardly reasonable evidence that a degree is not worth the investment. Of course one isn't guaranteed to derive strong financial reward for dropping out of a program before completion. Of what program would this be true?

Hell, one is guaranteed to derive strong financial reward for successfully completing a program that is in very high demand by employers or the market-place.

 

[lpetrich]

White House to extend student loan moratorium once again - POLITICO

The White House plans to once again extend the moratorium on federal student loan payments through the end of August, according to multiple people familiar with the matter, including an administration official.

The announcement, expected on Wednesday, comes as the current pause on payments was set to expire May 1, potentially impacting more than 40 million Americans. The new August 31 extension, however, is considerably shorter than what many Democrats have been requesting. It also tees up another fight over the relief just months before the midterm elections.

That last bit is what I thought when I learned of that announcement. It would be very embarrassing to have a big fight around then.

A range of Democrats had urged the Biden administration to extend the pause on payments through at least the end of 2022, which would be long enough to avoid requiring borrowers to make payments just before the midterm elections. Just last week, nearly 100 lawmakers led by Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Majority Leader Chuck Schumer sent a letter to Biden asking him to extend the pause “until at least the end of the year.”

The Democratic chairs of the congressional education committees — Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) and Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) — had also urged the administration to extend the relief until 2023.

Not just progressives, but some more centrist Democrats want the pause extended.

 

[lpetrich]

Some Biden advisers have been reluctant to continue relief because they believe it undercuts the administration’s messaging on the strength of the economic recovery, though last month White House chief of staff Ron Klain signaled the White House would extend the freeze again.

What an argument.

Republicans have been urging the Biden administration to restart student loan payments over concerns about the growing cost to taxpayers. The various extensions of the payment pause have cost more than $100 billion, according to Education Department estimates.

The Biden administration estimates that borrowers collectively save about $5 billion each month in interest that does not accrue on their loans.

"Only the little people pay taxes" -- tax cheat Leona Helmsley -- and also many Republicans, it seems

Some private student lenders whose business has been harmed by the pandemic relief have been lobbying the Biden administration to end the program and restart federal student loan payments for many borrowers. They’ve called for a partial extension of the pandemic relief that is targeted only to borrowers who are struggling.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

 

[lpetrich]

AOC says extending the pause on student-loan payments isn't the way to go: 'We should cancel them'
noting
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "I think some folks read these extensions as savvy politics, but I don’t think those folks understand the panic and disorder it causes people to get so close to these deadlines just to extend the uncertainty. It doesn’t have the affect people think it does.

We should cancel them." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "I’ve had so many people asking me “My payments are $X hundred / thousand a month. What do you think is going to happen in May? I need to make sure I delay X medical procedure or prescription / sell my car / make X huge change to prepare.”

The limbo & uncertainty is also a strain" / Twitter

 

[ZiprHead]

I still say we should just allow bankruptcy.

As far as the moratorium goes, research shows it to be a big motivator to get people to the polls for the midterms.

 

[Metaphor]

AOC says extending the pause on student-loan payments isn't the way to go: 'We should cancel them'
noting
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "I think some folks read these extensions as savvy politics, but I don’t think those folks understand the panic and disorder it causes people to get so close to these deadlines just to extend the uncertainty. It doesn’t have the affect people think it does.
We should cancel them." / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "I’ve had so many people asking me “My payments are $X hundred / thousand a month. What do you think is going to happen in May? I need to make sure I delay X medical procedure or prescription / sell my car / make X huge change to prepare.”
The limbo & uncertainty is also a strain" / Twitter

Ah yes. Let's cancel debt, at tax payer expense, that people voluntarily entered in to and benefited from. That is completely an ethical thing to do, AOC.