US student loans grotesquely high

[BH]

The weird thing is that the religious Republicans shouldn't be mad about this. This Bible says debts should be cancelled every 6th or 7th year.

 

[Politesse]

The day Republicans come to a policy position based on something they read, this will be a different country.

 

[Derec]

The weird thing is that the religious Republicans shouldn't be mad about this. This Bible says debts should be cancelled every 6th or 7th year.

It is very doubtful that this policy was ever practiced.
If it were to ever be implemented, then terms of all loans would end just before the forgiveness date, and nobody would lend shortly before that date. It's not a very practical system.

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

 

[bilby]

The weird thing is that the religious Republicans shouldn't be mad about this. This Bible says debts should be cancelled every 6th or 7th year.

It is very doubtful that this policy was ever practiced.
If it were to ever be implemented, then terms of all loans would end just before the forgiveness date, and nobody would lend shortly before that date. It's not a very practical system.

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

...and on average massively less well-off than the average donor to the GOP, who are the voices behind the opposition to Biden's student loan forgiveness.

I have yet to hear of an actual average (or below average) wealth (or income) American who is genuinely upset by student loan forgiveness; The biggest sooks are the billionaires who are already getting far more (and far less deserved) taxpayer money than is ever going to go to student loan forgiveness.

I am sure there are some averagely well-off Americans who object; But I doubt that they are a majority, and I sincerely doubt that their objections were inspired by their own situation, and not by lobbying from the GOP and their tame media outlets.

 

[lpetrich]

The weird thing is that the religious Republicans shouldn't be mad about this. This Bible says debts should be cancelled every 6th or 7th year.

Deuteronomy 15:1-11 -- every 7 years

 

[lpetrich]

Deuteronomy 15 -- every 7 years
Leviticus 25 - every 50 years, 50 = 7*7+1 -  Jubilee (biblical)

That was far from new.

The Long Tradition of Debt Cancellation in Mesopotamia and Egypt from 3000 to 1000 BC
"In all, historians have identified with certainty about thirty general debt cancellations in Mesopotamia from 2400 to 1400 BC." -- about once every 30 years.

No further act of debt cancellation has been found for the period after 1400 BC; inequality increased and intensified. Land was taken over by big private land-owners and debt enslavement became commonplace. A large part of the population migrated north-west towards Canaan, with incursions into Egypt, which displeased the Pharaohs.

The ensuing centuries are known by historians of Mesopotamia as the “Dark Ages”, because of the dearth of written records. However, we do have evidence of violent social struggles between creditors and debtors.

After that,

In neighbouring Assyria, the emperors of the 1st millennium BC also adopted the tradition of debt cancellation, as did the rulers of Jerusalem in the 5th century BC: in 432 BC Nehemiah, no doubt influenced by the old Mesopotamian tradition, proclaimed the cancellation of the debts of all Jews who owed money to their wealthy compatriots.

Looking at Egypt,

The Rosetta Stone text confirms that the tradition of debt cancellation was upheld in Egypt by the pharaohs from the 8th century B.C., before Alexander the Great conquered the country in the 4th century B.C. It relates that the pharaoh Ptolemeus V cancelled all debt due to the Throne by the people of Egypt and beyond, in 196 BC.

Despite great differences between the society of Pharaonic Egypt and that of Bronze Age Mesopotamia, there is evidence that both had a tradition of proclaiming amnesty before general debt cancellation. Ramses IV (1153-1146 BC) proclaimed that those who had fled the country could return, and that those who were in prison should be freed. His father, Ramses III (1184 –1153 BC) had done the same. Note that in the 2nd millennium BC there does not seem to have been debt enslavement in Egypt: all slaves were war booty. The proclamations made by Ramses III and Ramses IV concerned the cancellation of arrears on taxes owed to the pharaoh, the liberation of political prisoners and the possibility for those in exile to return home.

Not until the 8th century BC do we find, for Egypt, proclamations of debt cancellation and of liberation for debt slaves. Such a proclamation was made by the Pharaoh Bocchoris (717-11 BC).

One of the fundamental motives for debt cancellation was that the pharaoh wanted at his disposal a peasantry able both to produce plenty of food and to take up arms in military campaigns. For these two reasons, it was important to prevent peasants from being expropriated by creditors.

 

[lpetrich]

The Ancient Practice of Debt Cancellation - "While anyone with a modicum of rationality knows that a huge proportion of the world’s debts are absolutely unpayable, it’s a fact that today any debt cancellation, however odious or illegitimate, remains taboo."

Debt repayment is presented by heads of state and government, central banks, the IMF and the mainstream press as imperative, inevitable, indisputable, compulsory. Citizens have elected their governments, so they must resign themselves to paying the debt. For not to pay is more than violating a symbol: it is to exclude oneself from civilization, and to renounce in advance any new credit that is granted only to « good payers ». What counts is not the effectiveness of the act, but the expression of one’s « good faith », i.e. one’s willingness to submit to the strongest. The only possible discussion is how to modulate the distribution of the necessary sacrifices.

It seems that the ultra-liberal, monetarist model that has been surreptitiously imposed on us is that of the Roman Empire: zero debt for states and cities, and no debt forgiveness for citizens!

...
What has been carefully concealed is that another human practice has also existed: moratoria, partial and even generalized debt cancellations have taken place repeatedly throughout history and were carried out according to different contexts.

Often, proclamations of generalized debt cancellation were the initiative of self-preservation-minded rulers, aware that the only way to avoid complete social breakdown was to declare a « washing of the shelves » – those on which consumer debts were inscribed – cancelling them to start afresh.

Then discussing debt cancellation in Mesopotamia and Egypt.

In Greece, the Athenian lawmaker Solon (c. 638 BC–558 BC), in order to rectify the widespread serfdom and slavery that had run rampant by the 6th century BCE, introduced a set of laws nown as the Seisachtheia introducing debt relief.

Before Solon, according to the account of the Constitution of the Athenians attributed to Aristotle, debtors unable to repay their creditors would surrender their land to them, then becoming hektemoroi, i.e. serfs who cultivated what used to be their own land and gave one sixth of produce to their creditors. However, should the debt exceed the perceived value of debtor’s total assets, then the debtor and his family would become the creditor’s slaves as well. The same would result if a man defaulted on a debt whose collateral was the debtor’s personal freedom. The fight for debt relief and the fight to abolish slavery were in practice identical.

Solon’s seisachtheia laws immediately cancelled all outstanding debts, retroactively emancipated all previously enslaved debtors, reinstated all confiscated serf property to the hektemoroi, and forbade the use of personal freedom as collateral in all future debts. The laws instituted a ceiling to maximum property size – regardless of the legality of its acquisition (i.e. by marriage), meant to prevent excessive accumulation of land by powerful families.

Jumping ahead to nearly 400 years ago,

In 1648, after five years of negotiations, led by the French diplomat Abel Servien on the instructions of Cardinal Mazarin, the “Peace of Westphalia” was signed, putting an end to the Thirty Years’ War (1618-1648).

Long before the UN Charter, 1648 made national sovereignty, mutual respect and the principle of non-interference the foundations of international law.

But there was more. As we have documented, the peace deal also included the cancelation of debts that had become the very reason for continuing the war.

Then to nearly 70 years ago.

Germany was loaded down with debt from WWI and the Treaty of Versailles just after that war.

So much so that it is in danger of turning to the USSR!

Action was called for. In 1953, under the leadership of German banker Hermann Abs, a former Deutsche Bank executive, a major conference was organized in London.

It was decided to write off 66% of Germany’s 30 billion marks in debt.

It was wisely agreed that annual repayments of German debt should never exceed 5% of export earnings. Those wishing to have their debts repaid by Germany should instead buy its exports, enabling it to honor its debts.

In other words, nothing like the madness recently imposed on Greece to « save » the euro!

Although this was done in the name of geopolitical principles, i.e. « in favor of some » but « against others », once again, it was in the name of a better future, i.e. a Europe capable of being the showcase of capitalism in the face of Moscow, that we were able to shed the weight of the past.

 

[lpetrich]

 History of debt relief

In the Ancient Rome the debt bondage known as nexum was abolished in 313 BCE.[20] However even after that the debtors were still required to perform compulsory labour, and could be imprisoned following a court judgement.[14] Appian mentions an attempt by praetor Asellio to revive the old law prohibiting the taking of interest in 89 BC which led to his murder, presumably by the creditors.[21] Later, partial debt cancellations were enacted by Sulla (by 10%) and then by Lucius Cornelius Cinna and Lucius Valerius Flaccus (by three quarters) in order to stabilise the economy ruined by the civil war.[22][23] The Roman elites were firmly against debt relief, with Cicero denouncing it as an attack on property and the propertied classes.[24]

The predecessors of the bankruptcy law emerged in early Imperial Rome. Augustus instituted cessio bonorum, allowing debtors to voluntarily surrender their property to creditors and thereby avoid personal arrest and loss of legal standing (infamia).[25]

While Rome never enacted complete debt cancellation, several emperors wrote off tax arrears, that is, debts to the state treasury.[26]

China: "The indebtedness of rural population was a constant government concern from the days of the Han dynasty. A variety of means were employed to deal with it, including full or partial debt relief. Often those loans whose repaid interest exceeded the principal were annulled."

Medieval Europe: "Medieval canon law built upon Roman law and extensively discussed provisions to mitigate the harshness of debtors' punishments. Most commentators allowed for a debtor to be discharged and make a fresh start, after ceding to his creditors all his goods (or possibly all his goods except some bare necessities). These provisions later influenced English bankruptcy law."

Recent centuries: "In the modern period debt discharge typically occurs through the process of bankruptcy. One of the first countries to establish personal bankruptcy (rather than company bankruptcy) was the United Kingdom, where the Bankruptcy Act 1869 allowed all people to file for bankruptcy."

 

[lpetrich]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

 

[RVonse]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

 

[ZiprHead]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

Wow. All college students graduate to become lawyers or accountants. I did not now that. Thanks for that information.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why do I have to pay taxes when the extremely wealthy do not? That's not even close to fair.

 

[Politesse]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

They have the exact same oppprtunity to go to college if they wish.

Is it your idea that your taxes should only be used to pay for things you personally support or use?

 

[RVonse]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

Wow. All college students graduate to become lawyers or accountants. I did not now that. Thanks for that information.

I can not think of any examples of college degrees for professions that require hard labor. Hard labor like brick laying and roofing where sweat is involved but mental genius is not. But if you can think of those kind of examples, I'm listening.

 

[RVonse]

Why do I have to pay taxes when the extremely wealthy do not? That's not even close to fair.

It isn't fair.

Nor does it have anything to do with paying for someone else's college degree.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why do I have to pay taxes when the extremely wealthy do not? That's not even close to fair.

It isn't fair.

Nor does it have anything to do with paying for someone else's college degree.

You support the guy that gave huge tax breaks to the rich and intends to do so again.

 

[RVonse]

And neither is Biden's student loan forgiveness, which is just a giveaway to those who are, on average, more well-off than the average American.

Evidence-free assertion. It's also a political drag-queen sort of argument: left-wing posturing. All outrage and no substance, and manufactured outrage at that.

You don't need to see any more evidence than look at what a brick layer does compared to the labor done by a lawyer or accountant. Why should the person who labors with sweat have to pay (with taxation) for someone's degree who sits in the air conditioning all day?

That's not even close to fair.

They have the exact same oppprtunity to go to college if they wish.

Is it your idea that your taxes should only be used to pay for things you personally support or use?

They certainly do have the exact same opportunity to go to college. But since some of them who could have entered easier career paths decided to be responsible you think they should be punished to pay for someone else loan? That's not fair or moral.

If you want to make college free for everyone, I would be on board with that. Then the rules are the same for everyone. Its making other people pay for college degrees after the fact that is the moral hazard.

 

[Politesse]

Your taxes would still be paying for tuition in that case...

 

[RVonse]

Your taxes would still be paying for tuition in that case...

Yes they would and I would be fine with this because I view education as a good return on investment.

What I am absolutely NOT FINE with is paying anyone anything for a bad loan that they made in bad faith. If they were good enough to borrow the money, then THEY should pay what THEY agreed to pay.

Lets just let the taxpayers pay for all the bad car loans next.....

 

[Politesse]

Your taxes would still be paying for tuition in that case...

Yes they would and I would be fine with this because I view education as a good return on investment.

What I am absolutely NOT FINE with is paying anyone anything for a bad loan that they made in bad faith. If they were good enough to borrow the money, then THEY should pay what THEY agreed to pay.

Lets just let the taxpayers pay for all the bad car loans next.....

The borrower isn't the one who makes a bad loan in bad faith.